Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 20, 2015 10:41:35 GMT -5
These statements of faith are part of religious ceremonies. They affirm that this person subscribes to this religion. There are plenty of ways to learn about various religions without learning the statements of faith for them verbatim. That would be a more appropriate approach for a public school.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 20, 2015 10:42:22 GMT -5
No, I'm saying that based on the context it could be assumed by a non-tinfoil-hat-wearing person that there is religious significance to copying a statement of faith (based on how both copying has been used historically in schools and how religions use recitation of statements to affirm faith), so given that it's reasonable to avoid having students undertake such an action.
There is a difference between naming 4 Commandments and asking a student to exactly copy/affirm a religious declaration. Naming Commandments just requires basic knowledge of the content of the commandment and the answer could be a summary or in different terms. So a correct answer for the test question to name 4 of the 10 Commandments could be as simple as "don't kill, don't cheat, ..." Listing a summary in your own words of the content is very, very different than asking a student to verbatim copy, memorize or state a specific religious statement of faith.
You're a smart person and you know what I'm getting at. Educating means kids need to understand some things explicitly and may need to regurgitate them verbatim. That does not convey to indoctrination and religious conversion. I totally do know what you're getting at. But I also totally do know what the parents who object to it are getting at, too. Because I've been exposed to many different religions among my close friends and even in a school environment, I understand why people would attach significance to the simple action of reciting or copying a statement of faith.
Do I personally attach significance to it or think that my kid would be indoctrinated by it? No. But I see how others would and how a reasonable person might conclude that this is a clear violation of the requirement to separate church and state. You can - and should - teach about it. You can't - and shouldn't - require students to take an action that could be construed as practicing a religion. Reciting or copying a statement of faith could be construed as practicing. To many people, reciting or copying has deep meaning.
Educating the kids on Islam does not require they copy the Muslim statement of faith nor that they regurgitate it verbatim. Educating kids on calligraphy doesn't require they copy the Muslim statement of faith. Let's pick a more appropriate way to do both those things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2015 10:47:56 GMT -5
These statements of faith are part of religious ceremonies. They affirm that this person subscribes to this religion. There are plenty of ways to learn about various religions without learning the statements of faith for them verbatim. That would be a more appropriate approach for a public school. This, I am a strong believer in the separation of church and state but am totally fine with comparative religion being taught in public schools. I don't believe in any of it but to leave it out would leave a gigantic hole in human history and muddle the context of historical events.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 20, 2015 10:53:56 GMT -5
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 20, 2015 11:00:36 GMT -5
Perhaps this is the better lesson for schools to try to teach--what sets a statement of faith apart and how and why is it meaningful to people when it it recited or written. The rest just represents a surface understanding of the religion. If you learn this, you will gain a deeper understanding of what makes these people tick.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 20, 2015 11:02:22 GMT -5
Perhaps this is the better lesson for schools to try to teach--what sets a statement of faith apart and how and why is it meaningful to people when it it recited or written. The rest just represents a surface understanding of the religion. If you learn this, you will gain a deeper understanding of what makes these people tick. x 1000.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 20, 2015 11:03:49 GMT -5
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 20, 2015 11:04:29 GMT -5
Okay I think I need to say some things since this is one of the classes that I teach and the state I live in. This is world/human geography class. We cover different regions and each region we cover physical, economics, and cultural aspects of that region. Religions are one of the cultural aspects that we cover. There are more then a few religions that are covered in this class, and I would assume that there were similar assignments with each religion that was taught. STANDARD WG.3c ... Thank you, geenamercile, for posting 'STANDARD WG.3c', as it guided me to the Board of Education, Commonwealth of Virginia web page which describes what is to be covered in Virginia's The History and Social Science Standards of Learning Curriculum Framework 2008 class and approved by the state board of education. The copying of the Arabic quote was not something the teacher made up but it is in the teacher's guide and students' workbook for the course. If you go to page 19 of the link below, you will find calligraphy is part of the study under Cultural Characteristics and North Africa and Southwest Asia (Middle East). Along with calligraphy students also learn about 'Art that reflects the diversity of religions (stained glass, geometric tiles, calligraphy, mosaics, prayer rugs)' The History and Social Science Standards of Learning Curriculum Framework 2008If you are going to blame anyone for this, blame the Virginia state board of education. The teacher was only following what has been developed for the students of Virginia.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 20, 2015 11:08:27 GMT -5
I would have a complete non-response to this as a parent. I might try my own copying of the phrase to see how I do. You could take my kids to a mosque for the entire Muslim service, have them repeat whatever prayer responses are the tradition, and do the same at a church and synagogue and temple and then have the kids contrast and compare. Now that would be educational on comparative religions. this part of the assignment was about the faith, the language and the art. Triple duty! Also - it seems to have been part of a prepackaged curriculum? I don't believe that the teacher was just slipping this in there for their own nefarious purposes. You are correct. See my post above your post.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 20, 2015 12:29:22 GMT -5
An extremely bad choice of a statement to write calligraphy. The back story of this is the teacher is Muslim. Said teacher could be part of a sleeper cell. Overreaction. Maybe not. See reply #72. What I do see if hysteria over anything related to Islam. This course and workbook (with the calligraphy exercise as depicted in the picture) was approved by the state of Virginia board of education back in 2008. The course has probably been taught in Virginia high schools at least since the 2010-2011 school year without any known parental outrage.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 20, 2015 12:52:43 GMT -5
An extremely bad choice of a statement to write calligraphy. The back story of this is the teacher is Muslim. Said teacher could be part of a sleeper cell. Overreaction. Maybe not. See reply #72. What I do see if hysteria over anything related to Islam. This course and workbook (with the calligraphy exercise as depicted in the picture) was approved by the state of Virginia board of education back in 2008. The course has probably been taught in Virginia high schools at least since the 2010-2011 school year without any known parental outrage. Definitely a rise in hysteria over anything related to Islam. Not helpful, promotes distrust and discord.
And if this was part of a state approved workbook, then the state is responsible for the error, not the individual teacher.
And as Rukh pointed out, as a parent I wouldn't personally object to my kids even going to and participating in different ceremonies, so personally I wouldn't worry about my kids being subverted.
Very, very true points. They do not change my opinion on whether it's appropriate for a public school to have students participate in what would be construed by many people to be a religious rite. No need for hysteria, no need to burn the teacher as a witch, no need to go crazy thinking the teacher is part of sleeper cell that will turn the youth into terrorists, no need for threats that close down the school. But the workbook should be revised to remove a practice that could be considered to be a religious practice/rite and it should be an easy fix for the future. If the workbooks are pre-printed, just have students skip that one exercise. For future printings, keep the calligraphy example and just remove the part where it asks students to copy the calligraphy. Or, if they want to also include a calligraphy example and have the students practice/experience the calligraphy, use an example that isn't a religious rite; easy enough to pick another phrase. None of this should involve a firestorm but it should be done.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 20, 2015 13:05:59 GMT -5
See reply #72. What I do see if hysteria over anything related to Islam. This course and workbook (with the calligraphy exercise as depicted in the picture) was approved by the state of Virginia board of education back in 2008. The course has probably been taught in Virginia high schools at least since the 2010-2011 school year without any known parental outrage. Definitely a rise in hysteria over anything related to Islam. Not helpful, promotes distrust and discord.
And if this was part of a state approved workbook, then the state is responsible for the error, not the individual teacher.
And as Rukh pointed out, as a parent I wouldn't personally object to my kids even going to and participating in different ceremonies, so personally I wouldn't worry about my kids being subverted.
Very, very true points. They do not change my opinion on whether it's appropriate for a public school to have students participate in what would be construed by many people to be a religious rite. No need for hysteria, no need to burn the teacher as a witch, no need to go crazy thinking the teacher is part of sleeper cell that will turn the youth into terrorists, no need for threats that close down the school. But the workbook should be revised to remove a practice that could be considered to be a religious practice/rite and it should be an easy fix for the future. If the workbooks are pre-printed, just have students skip that one exercise. For future printings, keep the calligraphy example and just remove the part where it asks students to copy the calligraphy. Or, if they want to also include a calligraphy example and have the students practice/experience the calligraphy, use an example that isn't a religious rite; easy enough to pick another phrase. None of this should involve a firestorm but it should be done.
My issue with all this is that there are probably similar type exercises in the student workbook and teacher's manual that deal with Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism. And as I just mentioned, there was no known outrage about what was taught and learned about Christianity and Judaism over the past few years before the subject moved onto Islam this school year. Seems awfully hypocritical of the parents who are now complaining about an exercise in Islam. The calligraphy exercise itself should not be changed or eliminated. The only thing which possibly should be changed is the passage of the Koran they are asked to copy. That would also apply to copying anything that had to do with the Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism holy books too. But I would imagine those who are complaining about the Koran calligraphy exercise would then complain about the Christianity and Judaism exercises then be exorcised out of the books too.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Dec 20, 2015 13:57:02 GMT -5
]Just saw this on FB. Thought it was amusing considering.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 20, 2015 14:26:02 GMT -5
Why learn calligraphy by hand when you can download a calligraphy font!
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