mroped
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Post by mroped on Dec 18, 2015 22:08:40 GMT -5
Poor choice of text? -Yes! Worth going crazy over? -No and again NO!
Christians overall are no better than Muslims or Jewish or Budhist or Tao 's or what not. They are all people and as people are, some are crazy and act irrationally. Going nuts over such an issue just show immaturity and ignorance.
IT WAS ABOUT CALYGRAPHY! Not about faith/beliefs or any religion but simply calygraphy!
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Dec 18, 2015 22:27:36 GMT -5
I think the problem is this: everyone seems to get their undies in a bunch if you DARE to talk about Christianity or Judaism in a public school. But, the same rules don't seem to apply for other faiths. At times, (just to use an example) Buddhism & the Muslim faith seem to get a pass, not to mention other religions that don't seem to be mainstream. It seems the fairest way to handle this, is that if the government is truly going to enforce that doctrine of the separation of religion & government, the same rules should apply to ALL faiths, & not a select few.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 18, 2015 22:31:22 GMT -5
Big difference between a woman's "proper" place and how a country treats women. If you're teaching about FGM in Africa, it doesn't mean you endorse the practice.
So you are ok with it? I'm OK with teaching students about how people live in other countries. We don't live in a bubble. That does not constitute an endorsement.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Dec 19, 2015 11:47:49 GMT -5
Here are some random unorganized thoughts (since I haven't finished my coffee and I'm supposed to be doing other things).
1. If it was about calligraphy, then why have anything that had to do with religion? 2. The history and concepts of the five major religions are supposed to be taught in seventh grade and in tenth grade in my state. 3. No one should be asked to write or speak a testament of faith for a religion while in a public school setting. Read to understand the concept of the religion, yes, but not write or speak. 4. The decision to close a school is not one a superintendent takes lightly.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Dec 19, 2015 12:00:02 GMT -5
I think the problem is this: everyone seems to get their undies in a bunch if you DARE to talk about Christianity or Judaism in a public school. But, the same rules don't seem to apply for other faiths. At times, (just to use an example) Buddhism & the Muslim faith seem to get a pass, not to mention other religions that don't seem to be mainstream. It seems the fairest way to handle this, is that if the government is truly going to enforce that doctrine of the separation of religion & government, the same rules should apply to ALL faiths, & not a select few. That is exactly the problem. You nailed it!
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Dec 19, 2015 14:01:35 GMT -5
Okay I think I need to say some things since this is one of the classes that I teach and the state I live in. This is world/human geography class. We cover different regions and each region we cover physical, economics, and cultural aspects of that region. Religions are one of the cultural aspects that we cover. There are more then a few religions that are covered in this class, and I would assume that there were similar assignments with each religion that was taught.
STANDARD WG.3c
The student will apply the concept of a region by
c) analyzing how cultural characteristics, including the world’s major languages, ethnicity, and religions, link or divide regions. (from the VA SOLs)
The main religions that are focused on
• Hinduism
• Buddhism
• Judaism
• Christianity
• Islam
But we also look at different smaller religions as well in the regions.
Religions and their development is also covered in World History course as well.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Dec 19, 2015 14:05:47 GMT -5
I'm perfectly OK with teaching comparative religion in schools. Different religions are a fact of life. Learning about them in order to understand the world we live in is quite different than forcing someone to adopt them.
Are you Ok with them writing the Christian statement of faith? Yes or no. I know this wasn't to me..... but yes my students read, discussed, and studied the different statements and bases of each of the faiths we had to learn about and how it affected the cultures.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Dec 19, 2015 14:12:22 GMT -5
A Virginia school system has decided to close schools Friday after a high school geography assignment on world religions led to allegations of Islamic indoctrination and a slew of angry emails and phone calls.
A teacher at the district’s Riverheads High near Staunton, Va., gave an assignment asking students to try their hand at calligraphy by copying a statement in Arabic. Kimberly Herndon posted a photo of the worksheet given to her son, a student in the class, to her Facebook page. Under the heading “practicing calligraphy,” the worksheet says: “Here is the shahada, the Islamic statement of faith, written in Arabic. In the space below, try copying it by hand. This should give you an idea of the artistic complexity of calligraphy.”
www.washingtonpost.com/news/education/wp/2015/12/17/furor-over-arabic-assignment-leads-virginia-school-district-to-close-friday/
OMG! Shut the schools down! Our students are learning calligraphy!
Yeah, I know...kind of idiotic. That should give you an insight into why Trump is doing so well. Talking about calligraphy, it is becoming a lost art. Both of my kids bring their laptops to school to do their assignments.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Dec 19, 2015 14:21:16 GMT -5
Ignorance contributes to fear and fear causes a great deal of stupid choices. I think the school did the right thing to close in response to the chaos this incited (unnecessarily in my opinion). People fear what they don't understand. Unfortunately, instead of becoming informed, people regurgitate BS they've heard and incite hatred, which only begets violence.
Years and years ago, I did the exact same thing in my high school geography class. In the world religion class, we actually (gasp) went to many houses of worship (Catholic Church, synagogue, mosque, Buddhist temple, etc.) My parents were thrilled that I had that opportunity, and they used it is a chance to help me better understand our faith and why we believe what we believe, however, they also stressed the importance of tolerance and knowledge. That lesson was not lost on me.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Dec 19, 2015 14:31:56 GMT -5
Ignorance contributes to fear and fear causes a great deal of stupid choices. I think the school did the right thing to close in response to the chaos this incited (unnecessarily in my opinion). People fear what they don't understand. Unfortunately, instead of becoming informed, people regurgitate BS they've heard and incite hatred, which only begets violence. Years and years ago, I did the exact same thing in my high school geography class. In the world religion class, we actually (gasp) went to many houses of worship (Catholic Church, synagogue, mosque, Buddhist temple, etc.) My parents were thrilled that I had that opportunity, and they used it is a chance to help me better understand our faith and why we believe what we believe, however, they also stressed the importance of tolerance and knowledge. That lesson was not lost on me. Good for you moneymaven. I am Catholic and went to Catholic Schools, and we did the exact same thing. We went to various protestant denominations...Lutheran, United and Jewish synagogues and Greek orthodox. Funny thing is, we are all sort of the same.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Dec 19, 2015 14:37:58 GMT -5
First it is copying down some Islam, second you are over run with Muslims living off government benefits and having litters of kids. And living in tents and riding camels to work. Totally over the top reaction on the part of the schools. Maybe not the best choice for the assignment, given the current political climate. But then again, that in itself could have been a good teachable moment, if it could have been approached calmly and sanely.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 19, 2015 17:55:35 GMT -5
Lot of things going on here.
- It's sad that the reactions of (presumably) parents were so heated and threatening that the schools felt they needed to close to prevent violence. Whether or not the parents' concern about having students copy a passage was legit, we need to learn to discuss things instead of bluster and threaten until others accede, or we're no different than the terrorists we decry.
- Students should absolutely learn about different religions, especially the major religions that shape current world economics and events. Islam fits into that category and failing to educate our students on Islam (and all the other major religions) would be irresponsible.
- Educating a student about a religion is different than making a student perform a task that might be construed as a form of "practicing" that religion. Islam can and should be described, discussed, major documents read, written about, etc. That is very, very different than making students copy / write the Muslim Statement of Faith. Any instructor that is familiar with religion will know that reciting and writing statements of faith are part of how most religious followers express, claim and affirm their faith; saying or writing those statements of faith is closer to actually practicing or endorsing a religion than simply reading and familiarizing yourself with the statement. Add in the fact that the statement was in a foreign language, which means that students would be writing out a statement that they didn't even understand the meaning of... and that's inappropriate. If the teacher wanted to print an English translation of the Muslim Statement of Faith and have the students read it, answer questions about it and treat it like any other material, that would be fine. But to have students write it (especially since it could be viewed as covertly asking them to declare something they didn't understand) is not appropriate.
- School has a long standing tradition of having students copy or write out passages they want the student to remember or affirm; "I will not talk in class", the Pledge of Allegiance, etc. Having a student directly copy a passage definitely has the implication that the student is endorsing the content. Yes, that's mitigated by the fact that this was in a foreign language, but still... religion is a sensitive subject. It's fine to teach about it, not fine to ask students to endorse or accept specific tenets; having students copy the statement of faith of a particular religion implies you're asking the student to endorse or accept it. Heck, the paper itself even says "Calligraphy - the art of writing - is sacred to Muslims" so the teacher is acknowledging that the student is being asked to complete a task that's considered a religious act, that makes a statement affirming a particular religion and in a form that has traditionally been used over here as a method of reinforcement/endorsement. Bad idea and not appropriate.
- If the teacher really wanted students to learn about the complexity of calligraphy, there are literally millions of other nonreligious phrases and passages that could and should have been chosen.
I would want my sons to learn about Islam and all the other major religions. We're open about religion and go with friends to a variety of services and events. And no matter how much I disagreed with a school assignment, there's no way I'd ever send the school a letter implying that violence would ensue if I didn't get my way. All that being said, this assignment was either the result of an extremely incompetent teacher (didn't understand what the passage was and why it's inappropriate to have students complete an endorsement of it) or a teacher with extremely poor judgment.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 19, 2015 18:30:24 GMT -5
Apparently, the teacher of the class had already taught Christianity and Judaism in her comparative religions class before moving onto Islam. None of the parents seemed to mind Christianity and Judaism being covered until it came to Islam. From a local (Augusta County, Virginia) newspaper: "LaPorte's lesson was part of a survey of different religions. When students study a different part of the world, they also learn about that region's culture, religion and political systems. Students had studied Christianity and Judaism then had moved on to Islam. They will also learn about Hinduism and Buddhism. Comparative religions is part of every world geography students' required standards for Standards of Learning tests." Support for Riverheads teacher and Islam lesson
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 19, 2015 18:31:24 GMT -5
Lot of things going on here.
- It's sad that the reactions of (presumably) parents were so heated and threatening that the schools felt they needed to close to prevent violence. Whether or not the parents' concern about having students copy a passage was legit, we need to learn to discuss things instead of bluster and threaten until others accede, or we're no different than the terrorists we decry.
- Students should absolutely learn about different religions, especially the major religions that shape current world economics and events. Islam fits into that category and failing to educate our students on Islam (and all the other major religions) would be irresponsible.
- Educating a student about a religion is different than making a student perform a task that might be construed as a form of "practicing" that religion. Islam can and should be described, discussed, major documents read, written about, etc. That is very, very different than making students copy / write the Muslim Statement of Faith. Any instructor that is familiar with religion will know that reciting and writing statements of faith are part of how most religious followers express, claim and affirm their faith; saying or writing those statements of faith is closer to actually practicing or endorsing a religion than simply reading and familiarizing yourself with the statement. Add in the fact that the statement was in a foreign language, which means that students would be writing out a statement that they didn't even understand the meaning of... and that's inappropriate. If the teacher wanted to print an English translation of the Muslim Statement of Faith and have the students read it, answer questions about it and treat it like any other material, that would be fine. But to have students write it (especially since it could be viewed as covertly asking them to declare something they didn't understand) is not appropriate.
- School has a long standing tradition of having students copy or write out passages they want the student to remember or affirm; "I will not talk in class", the Pledge of Allegiance, etc. Having a student directly copy a passage definitely has the implication that the student is endorsing the content. Yes, that's mitigated by the fact that this was in a foreign language, but still... religion is a sensitive subject. It's fine to teach about it, not fine to ask students to endorse or accept specific tenets; having students copy the statement of faith of a particular religion implies you're asking the student to endorse or accept it. Heck, the paper itself even says "Calligraphy - the art of writing - is sacred to Muslims" so the teacher is acknowledging that the student is being asked to complete a task that's considered a religious act, that makes a statement affirming a particular religion and in a form that has traditionally been used over here as a method of reinforcement/endorsement. Bad idea and not appropriate.
- If the teacher really wanted students to learn about the complexity of calligraphy, there are literally millions of other nonreligious phrases and passages that could and should have been chosen.
I would want my sons to learn about Islam and all the other major religions. We're open about religion and go with friends to a variety of services and events. And no matter how much I disagreed with a school assignment, there's no way I'd ever send the school a letter implying that violence would ensue if I didn't get my way. All that being said, this assignment was either the result of an extremely incompetent teacher (didn't understand what the passage was and why it's inappropriate to have students complete an endorsement of it) or a teacher with extremely poor judgment. It was from a standard geography workbook.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Dec 19, 2015 18:40:03 GMT -5
It seems to me it is more like: Here are a bunch of marks on a piece of paper. See if you can mindlessly recreate them in the box below.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Dec 19, 2015 19:02:44 GMT -5
It seems to me it is more like: Here are a bunch of marks on a piece of paper. See if you can mindlessly recreate them in the box below. How provincial! Foreign languages aren't "a bunch of marks".
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 19, 2015 19:48:09 GMT -5
Lot of things going on here.
- It's sad that the reactions of (presumably) parents were so heated and threatening that the schools felt they needed to close to prevent violence. Whether or not the parents' concern about having students copy a passage was legit, we need to learn to discuss things instead of bluster and threaten until others accede, or we're no different than the terrorists we decry.
- Students should absolutely learn about different religions, especially the major religions that shape current world economics and events. Islam fits into that category and failing to educate our students on Islam (and all the other major religions) would be irresponsible.
- Educating a student about a religion is different than making a student perform a task that might be construed as a form of "practicing" that religion. Islam can and should be described, discussed, major documents read, written about, etc. That is very, very different than making students copy / write the Muslim Statement of Faith. Any instructor that is familiar with religion will know that reciting and writing statements of faith are part of how most religious followers express, claim and affirm their faith; saying or writing those statements of faith is closer to actually practicing or endorsing a religion than simply reading and familiarizing yourself with the statement. Add in the fact that the statement was in a foreign language, which means that students would be writing out a statement that they didn't even understand the meaning of... and that's inappropriate. If the teacher wanted to print an English translation of the Muslim Statement of Faith and have the students read it, answer questions about it and treat it like any other material, that would be fine. But to have students write it (especially since it could be viewed as covertly asking them to declare something they didn't understand) is not appropriate.
- School has a long standing tradition of having students copy or write out passages they want the student to remember or affirm; "I will not talk in class", the Pledge of Allegiance, etc. Having a student directly copy a passage definitely has the implication that the student is endorsing the content. Yes, that's mitigated by the fact that this was in a foreign language, but still... religion is a sensitive subject. It's fine to teach about it, not fine to ask students to endorse or accept specific tenets; having students copy the statement of faith of a particular religion implies you're asking the student to endorse or accept it. Heck, the paper itself even says "Calligraphy - the art of writing - is sacred to Muslims" so the teacher is acknowledging that the student is being asked to complete a task that's considered a religious act, that makes a statement affirming a particular religion and in a form that has traditionally been used over here as a method of reinforcement/endorsement. Bad idea and not appropriate.
- If the teacher really wanted students to learn about the complexity of calligraphy, there are literally millions of other nonreligious phrases and passages that could and should have been chosen.
I would want my sons to learn about Islam and all the other major religions. We're open about religion and go with friends to a variety of services and events. And no matter how much I disagreed with a school assignment, there's no way I'd ever send the school a letter implying that violence would ensue if I didn't get my way. All that being said, this assignment was either the result of an extremely incompetent teacher (didn't understand what the passage was and why it's inappropriate to have students complete an endorsement of it) or a teacher with extremely poor judgment. It was from a standard geography workbook.
Yes. I read and understand both the article and the pictured worksheet. That's why I quoted the worksheet shown in the picture in my point #4.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 19, 2015 19:52:17 GMT -5
Apparently, the teacher of the class had already taught Christianity and Judaism in her comparative religions class before moving onto Islam. None of the parents seemed to mind Christianity and Judaism being covered until it came to Islam. The concerns that I outlined would be the same regardless of what religion was involved. I would not support any student being asked to copy or affirm the statement of faith of ANY religion. The issue for me isn't about it being a Muslim statement. My objections about this essentially forcing a student to "practice" a particular religion would be the same if this was a Christian prayer, a Jewish statement of faith or a specific religious practice of any faith.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2015 20:42:57 GMT -5
As I stated earlier, I would have chosen a different passage. However I don't see this as copy and affirm... To copy and affirm you need to be understanding the words as you repeat them to yourself... While I agree foreign language is not just swiggles, in reality this was a make the lines with your calligraphy pen assignment... They were not decoding those characters, which they would have to be chanting to themselves to reafirm.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 19, 2015 20:49:55 GMT -5
As I stated earlier, I would have chosen a different passage. However I don't see this as copy and affirm... To copy and affirm you need to be understanding the words as you repeat them to yourself... While I agree foreign language is not just swiggles, in reality this was a make the lines with your calligraphy pen assignment... They were not decoding those characters, which they would have to be chanting to themselves to reafirm. Yes, I see that point. And if it were an art class or a class that wasn't actually studying religion and this was what I'd call a "purely calligraphy" assignment in which for whatever clueless reason someone happened to choose a certain passage but the content of the passage wasn't relevant, I'd be more likely to see it primarily that way.
But when I read the worksheet, it appears to me to be primarily a study of a particular religion. It's not really a calligraphy exercise, nor is learning calligraphy even a goal; the stated goal is to show how ornate and complicated the religious writing in calligraphy is. In fact, calligraphy is only brought up in the context of how it's sacred to this religion and used to decorate the walls of the holy places. The dominant theme here is a particular religion and what is important to that religion. It's not about learning calligraphy; it's about a statement of a particular religious belief and specifically religious art.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Dec 19, 2015 21:23:51 GMT -5
As I stated earlier, I would have chosen a different passage. However I don't see this as copy and affirm... To copy and affirm you need to be understanding the words as you repeat them to yourself... While I agree foreign language is not just swiggles, in reality this was a make the lines with your calligraphy pen assignment... They were not decoding those characters, which they would have to be chanting to themselves to reafirm. Yes, I see that point. And if it were an art class or a class that wasn't actually studying religion and this was what I'd call a "purely calligraphy" assignment in which for whatever clueless reason someone happened to choose a certain passage but the content of the passage wasn't relevant, I'd be more likely to see it primarily that way.
But when I read the worksheet, it appears to me to be primarily a study of a particular religion. It's not really a calligraphy exercise, nor is learning calligraphy even a goal; the stated goal is to show how ornate and complicated the religious writing in calligraphy is. In fact, calligraphy is only brought up in the context of how it's sacred to this religion and used to decorate the walls of the holy places. The dominant theme here is a particular religion and what is important to that religion. It's not about learning calligraphy; it's about a statement of a particular religious belief and specifically religious art.
It was the study of a particular religion. The class had aready studied Christianity and Judaism this school year. After Islam, the class was to study Hinduism and then Buddhism.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Dec 19, 2015 21:57:08 GMT -5
The choice of words is unfortunate. But when something like this happens I cannot stop feeling that the terrorists are wining.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Dec 19, 2015 22:14:03 GMT -5
It seems to me it is more like: Here are a bunch of marks on a piece of paper. See if you can mindlessly recreate them in the box below. How provincial! Foreign languages aren't "a bunch of marks".
You know, as much as I sort of like you...you cut. French provincial, Italian provincial? But I don't like provincial. I want to be in Paris, not the provinces. Rome, when it was still an empire. And now, NY NY...what a city.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 20, 2015 7:57:03 GMT -5
There is a difference between teaching ABOUT a religion and writing a Statement of Faith. If you don't understand the difference between those things, then you either don't understand religion or maybe you shouldn't be teaching. My kids did writing assignments from The Torah, The Bible and The koran this year. I am fine with that.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Dec 20, 2015 9:54:14 GMT -5
So just for clarification, you're stating that when a student writes down a statement of faith, they are being forced to affirm the religion.
Thus, when the teacher tests on all of the material and students are asked questions on a written exam such as name 4 of the 10 commandments, when students write down the answer to that question, they are declaring or affirming the faith?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 20, 2015 10:04:15 GMT -5
I remember learning about Islam in 7th grade, along with the other major religions. We were taught the Muslim affirmation of faith "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet." We were required to use it in writing assignments, and I specifically remember it being a test question. I also remember several private jokes among us that incorporated that phrase.
Obviously Mr. Barry did a phenomenal job of teaching if I still remember it 33 years later.
Maybe he indoctrinated me?
I think we've gone too far. It is possible to know, repeat, and understand another religions affirmation without subscribing to it.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Dec 20, 2015 10:24:40 GMT -5
"1. If it was about calligraphy, then why have anything that had to do with religion?"
Here is an absolutely impartial statement that should've been used by this teacher:
"Jeny went to the market to buy parsnips!"
Now here is the possible problem: why did you pick Jeny as a character? Why does she have to go to the market? Are you saying that just women/girls go to the market? Why not carrots and specifically parsnips? And so on and so on!
this was about calligraphy!!!!! Why are people so mistrusting and moronic as to see in anything an ulterior motive?
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 20, 2015 10:29:01 GMT -5
So just for clarification, you're stating that when a student writes down a statement of faith, they are being forced to affirm the religion. Thus, when the teacher tests on all of the material and students are asked questions on a written exam such as name 4 of the 10 commandments, when students write down the answer to that question, they are declaring or affirming the faith? No, I'm saying that based on the context it could be assumed by a non-tinfoil-hat-wearing person that there is religious significance to copying a statement of faith (based on how both copying has been used historically in schools and how religions use recitation of statements to affirm faith), so given that it's reasonable to avoid having students undertake such an action.
There is a difference between naming 4 Commandments and asking a student to exactly copy/affirm a religious declaration. Naming Commandments just requires basic knowledge of the content of the commandment and the answer could be a summary or in different terms. So a correct answer for the test question to name 4 of the 10 Commandments could be as simple as "don't kill, don't cheat, ..." Listing a summary in your own words of the content is very, very different than asking a student to verbatim copy, memorize or state a specific religious statement of faith.
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milee
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Post by milee on Dec 20, 2015 10:32:30 GMT -5
this was about calligraphy!!!!! Why are people so mistrusting and moronic as to see in anything an ulterior motive? Because it wasn't about calligraphy. Read the worksheet. It's about Islam and teaching the students about Islam. And I agree students should learn about Islam. But it's inappropriate to require students to participate in a religious act or rite as part of the study - and that's what writing out the statement of faith could be construed as.
If it were about calligraphy - or were in art class, for example - I would agree it's much ado about nothing.
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moneymaven
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Post by moneymaven on Dec 20, 2015 10:34:28 GMT -5
So just for clarification, you're stating that when a student writes down a statement of faith, they are being forced to affirm the religion. Thus, when the teacher tests on all of the material and students are asked questions on a written exam such as name 4 of the 10 commandments, when students write down the answer to that question, they are declaring or affirming the faith? No, I'm saying that based on the context it could be assumed by a non-tinfoil-hat-wearing person that there is religious significance to copying a statement of faith (based on how both copying has been used historically in schools and how religions use recitation of statements to affirm faith), so given that it's reasonable to avoid having students undertake such an action.
There is a difference between naming 4 Commandments and asking a student to exactly copy/affirm a religious declaration. Naming Commandments just requires basic knowledge of the content of the commandment and the answer could be a summary or in different terms. So a correct answer for the test question to name 4 of the 10 Commandments could be as simple as "don't kill, don't cheat, ..." Listing a summary in your own words of the content is very, very different than asking a student to verbatim copy, memorize or state a specific religious statement of faith.
You're a smart person and you know what I'm getting at. Educating means kids need to understand some things explicitly and may need to regurgitate them verbatim. That does not convey to indoctrination and religious conversion.
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