Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 17, 2015 14:24:52 GMT -5
There have been some studies that show the youngest kids in the class are much more likely to receive a diagnosis of ADD. I linked to an article about this a page or 2 back.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Dec 17, 2015 14:30:59 GMT -5
There have been some studies that show the youngest kids in the class are much more likely to receive a diagnosis of ADD. I linked to an article about this a page or 2 back. I liked that article, towards the bottom though it also distinguished the kindergarten type. If it's more play focused, like pre-school it didn't really have that effect. If kindergarten is the new first grade, then yes.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Dec 17, 2015 16:26:33 GMT -5
Also since this is YM, my 23 year old (despite taking one extra semester in college) has a good paying job nearing his 1 year work anniversary, just got promoted, is paying his student loan, saving for retirement and saving for his wedding. So it really doesn't matter that he was immature in kindergarten and couldn't pay attention and had terrible handwriting. He is on his own one year earlier and has 1 more year in the working world than the kids who were held back. Glad to hear it! Mine hates coloring, the handwriting has improved a lot in the past 4 months though At one point in 3rd grade, my now-23 year "failed" handwriting, paying attention, being ready for class, following directions. But he never met a math test he couldn't ace. in 3rd grade, he just could not remember to write his name on his paper and would get counted off 5 points. He said "Mom when I get the test I just want to start on the test", so I told him that was ok, he would just get 95 on the test. What is important in early school is not necessarily important in life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 17:17:20 GMT -5
NY seems to be alone with the 11/30 cut off, so if DD goes to college outside of NYS and I did not hold her back, she definitely would be one of the younger ones. I don't want her to be the youngest one at college. Mostly I'm worried about her getting arrested for using a fake ID if all her friends are legal and she wants to go out with them. the neighborhood I lived in when I started K, I was the youngest kid by easily 7 or 8 years. I laughed at the thought that you were -1 or -2.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Dec 17, 2015 17:24:40 GMT -5
the neighborhood I lived in when I started K, I was the youngest kid by easily 7 or 8 years. I laughed at the thought that you were -1 or -2. ha! that took me a minute to process.... no, the next youngest kids were already in middle school when I started K.
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t-dog
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Post by t-dog on Dec 17, 2015 18:18:26 GMT -5
My son's closest friend in 7th grade was held back when he was in Kinder - he did kinder twice. Its caused no issues for him that I can see.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Dec 17, 2015 23:27:41 GMT -5
It's so strange how widely cutoff dates vary from place to place... What amazes me is how dogmatic they will be about the cut offs! My god-daughter was born oct 1 n would have been better in the higher level. But that one day cut off was hard n fast at her first school with no way around it. The biggest issues are social, she does well with older kids n is constantly bigger then her classmates.
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 17, 2015 23:35:12 GMT -5
There have been some studies that show the youngest kids in the class are much more likely to receive a diagnosis of ADD. Interesting. My brother was borderline and he is one of the oldest with a December birthday. I wonder if it is because our expectations are different these days and they are being compared to some kids who may be up to a year older.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Dec 18, 2015 1:38:07 GMT -5
My daughter's birthday is Oct. 14 and the county cut-off is 5 by Sept 30. She was born 1 week late at week 41, so if only she was born 1 week early or had I taken my doctor up on his induction offer, I'd at least have the option. I have no problem with people choosing to hold back, but it stinks for people like me whose kid just barely missed it and would do great. I find the cut-off date to be so incredibly arbitrary and it does not seem to be based on any science or studies as it's different in every county, district, state. She's 4 and goes to 9-5 preschool with 20 other 4 year olds in her class. She dropped naps by 2, easily writes her full name, writes all the letters, can count to 100, knows all her shapes, words in Spanish, can speak in front of the group for show and tell, has weekly homework, cleans up after herself, follows, directions, shares, etc. She is the only one in her class that is at the top of the behavior chart every single day because she- most importantly- knows how to listen. She never gets in trouble. She is also one of the tallest as I'm 5'10. We've started working on reading and I think she'll be reading fairly well by the summer. It kills me that I can't send her to kindergarten next year when she'll be 5. I'll have to pay $12,000 for private kindergarten and then I can send her to first grade instead of public kindergarten. I obviously need to get over it, but I'd much rather put that $12K in her 529.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2015 4:18:53 GMT -5
Some of the districts around here will do individual evaluations to waive the cut off... At least they used to... It never hurts to ask I guess?
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 18, 2015 7:40:41 GMT -5
My district's cut off was somewhere in September? The summer before my senior year I babysat for a girl who was going to turn 5 in early October. They did the evaluation and she passed and went to school that fall. She did fine.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 18, 2015 8:11:50 GMT -5
My daughter's birthday is Oct. 14 and the county cut-off is 5 by Sept 30. She was born 1 week late at week 41, so if only she was born 1 week early or had I taken my doctor up on his induction offer, I'd at least have the option. I have no problem with people choosing to hold back, but it stinks for people like me whose kid just barely missed it and would do great. I find the cut-off date to be so incredibly arbitrary and it does not seem to be based on any science or studies as it's different in every county, district, state. She's 4 and goes to 9-5 preschool with 20 other 4 year olds in her class. She dropped naps by 2, easily writes her full name, writes all the letters, can count to 100, knows all her shapes, words in Spanish, can speak in front of the group for show and tell, has weekly homework, cleans up after herself, follows, directions, shares, etc. She is the only one in her class that is at the top of the behavior chart every single day because she- most importantly- knows how to listen. She never gets in trouble. She is also one of the tallest as I'm 5'10. We've started working on reading and I think she'll be reading fairly well by the summer. It kills me that I can't send her to kindergarten next year when she'll be 5. I'll have to pay $12,000 for private kindergarten and then I can send her to first grade instead of public kindergarten. I obviously need to get over it, but I'd much rather put that $12K in her 529. $12K for private kindergarten?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Dec 18, 2015 8:29:30 GMT -5
Both my kids have late summer birthdays. One of them is the oldest in her grade, and the other is the youngest in his grade. I tell everyone "I had the chance to make both mistakes - so I did." Even after having gone through this, and now that my kids are in middle school, I don't have much advice. Both my kids are doing great. I don't know if my son would be more focused if he was currently in 5th rather than 6th - I guess it is possible, but somehow, I doubt it. My daughter seems perfectly content where she is. It helps that she is physically less mature than her friends, or at least less 'womanly.' Not only was she not the first one to develop, but she still hasn't developed much comparatively. Would she be less academically responsible if she were in 8th grade instead of 7th? I highly doubt it.
So - no opinion, but I will give you support. The educational decisions I have had to make have been the hardest thing about parenthood to me. The age thing kept me up at night. These things aren't easy. Later you will feel one of three things: (1) Perfect decision (2) I don't know if it mattered much one way or another or (3) Oops - that was totally wrong. If it is #3, you have options to fix it.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Dec 18, 2015 8:39:22 GMT -5
So - no opinion, but I will give you support. The educational decisions I have had to make have been the hardest thing about parenthood to me. The age thing kept me up at night. These things aren't easy. Later you will feel one of three things: (1) Perfect decision (2) I don't know if it mattered much one way or another or (3) Oops - that was totally wrong. If it is #3, you have options to fix it.
And whatever you do, someone will second guess it.
My mom kept telling me (over and over again because of the dementia) that I would regret holding DD back because she would be bored in school. Other people told me that too. However, the kid had major panic attacks going to nursery school and Pre-K, so I wasn't going to send her to Kindergarten when she wasn't there yet.
The only downside I can see right now is that she is one of the largest kids in the class by far. Like a head taller than the other kids, and much heavier. Kids are mean, and I think that this could cause an issue soon.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Dec 18, 2015 8:39:32 GMT -5
Both my kids have late summer birthdays. One of them is the oldest in her grade, and the other is the youngest in his grade. I tell everyone "I had the chance to make both mistakes - so I did." Even after having gone through this, and now that my kids are in middle school, I don't have much advice. Both my kids are doing great. I don't know if my son would be more focused if he was currently in 5th rather than 6th - I guess it is possible, but somehow, I doubt it. My daughter seems perfectly content where she is. It helps that she is physically less mature than her friends, or at least less 'womanly.' Not only was she not the first one to develop, but she still hasn't developed much comparatively. Would she be less academically responsible if she were in 8th grade instead of 7th? I highly doubt it. So - no opinion, but I will give you support. The educational decisions I have had to make have been the hardest thing about parenthood to me. The age thing kept me up at night. These things aren't easy. Later you will feel one of three things: (1) Perfect decision (2) I don't know if it mattered much one way or another or (3) Oops - that was totally wrong. If it is #3, you have options to fix it. I don't know. I guess I dont' view that as such a monumental life decision. We live in a small town. There is one school. So, that's a pretty easy decision. There are no private schools in our town. There are some Catholic schools but they are in the next town and transporting there would be a big PIA. So, whether they started later or early just seems of very little consequence. I dunno.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Dec 18, 2015 9:27:21 GMT -5
There have been some studies that show the youngest kids in the class are much more likely to receive a diagnosis of ADD. I actually think kids who are held a year can have trouble getting schools to give them services because of their age also. Schools use some metric like two years behind in school. It is just easier to be 2 years behind when you essentially have one year less in school. (I'm assuming the child went to school somewhere for that year as almost all do.) So you end up with kids who really do need help but the "system" pushes them aside for a year until they become bad enough. My DD could have used some help sooner. She was one of the older kids in her grade. I always wonder how much better she would have done if she had gotten that help a grade sooner. For the record my son is a 12 yr old in the 7th grade with an April B-Day, so smack in the middle. I live in constant fear of him building a rocket or something out of the items in my kitchen and blowing up the house. But I would bet my life that if he was given one of those kindy assignments where you go from station to station and do something at each he would get lost around station two or three, and not only never complete it, but not even remember that he was supposed to do something.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Dec 18, 2015 11:10:58 GMT -5
Cutoff date here is Sept. 1st I think. My boy has a late October bday so we didn't have to make that call. That said, we're grateful for the timing because he needed that extra year. We'd have been the parents constantly being called and the teacher would have had to devote a fair amount of time to ds. DD had a kid like that in her class and as a parent looking in, it wasn't good for that poor boy or the rest of the kids.
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WholeLottaNothin
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Post by WholeLottaNothin on Dec 18, 2015 11:15:11 GMT -5
I'm struggling with this decision for my son right now. He is 4.5 and in Pre-K. I went to his parent teacher conference about a month ago, and she basically said he is the smartest in the class but the worst behaved. On the evaluation they used, he knew much of the stuff they did not expect them to know until the end of the year. Sometimes I think he may be bored. I also feel that he is not socially ready, and could use more time. He does not read people well or pick up on their clues, and he does not listen as well as he should. His birthday is the beginning of June. So he will turn 5 this coming June, and if I put him into Kindergarten, he will be 5 for the majority of the year (school runs from Sept-June here). I don't know if waiting a year (and he would be 6 more the majority of Kindergarten) would help or not. It's something we have to decide before long. I am going to have the same decision in a few years from now with my younger son as well, who was born in October.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Dec 18, 2015 11:29:43 GMT -5
My daughter's birthday is Oct. 14 and the county cut-off is 5 by Sept 30. She was born 1 week late at week 41, so if only she was born 1 week early or had I taken my doctor up on his induction offer, I'd at least have the option. I have no problem with people choosing to hold back, but it stinks for people like me whose kid just barely missed it and would do great. I find the cut-off date to be so incredibly arbitrary and it does not seem to be based on any science or studies as it's different in every county, district, state. She's 4 and goes to 9-5 preschool with 20 other 4 year olds in her class. She dropped naps by 2, easily writes her full name, writes all the letters, can count to 100, knows all her shapes, words in Spanish, can speak in front of the group for show and tell, has weekly homework, cleans up after herself, follows, directions, shares, etc. She is the only one in her class that is at the top of the behavior chart every single day because she- most importantly- knows how to listen. She never gets in trouble. She is also one of the tallest as I'm 5'10. We've started working on reading and I think she'll be reading fairly well by the summer. It kills me that I can't send her to kindergarten next year when she'll be 5. I'll have to pay $12,000 for private kindergarten and then I can send her to first grade instead of public kindergarten. I obviously need to get over it, but I'd much rather put that $12K in her 529. That was my youngest. Due date was Sept 1, born on Sept 13, school cutoff was Sept 1. We did private school but it was not nearly that much, maybe $2500 for half day 16 years ago. Will it get you out of day care costs? Also ours had to stay in private school through end of 1st grade. So we started youngest in private school, but then like it so much that kept him there and moved my other 2 older kids into private school. Think about all the costs, potentially less day care, and then eventually getting her out into the working world one year sooner!
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Dec 18, 2015 11:39:31 GMT -5
I'm struggling with this decision for my son right now. He is 4.5 and in Pre-K. I went to his parent teacher conference about a month ago, and she basically said he is the smartest in the class but the worst behaved. On the evaluation they used, he knew much of the stuff they did not expect them to know until the end of the year. Sometimes I think he may be bored. I also feel that he is not socially ready, and could use more time. He does not read people well or pick up on their clues, and he does not listen as well as he should. His birthday is the beginning of June. So he will turn 5 this coming June, and if I put him into Kindergarten, he will be 5 for the majority of the year (school runs from Sept-June here). I don't know if waiting a year (and he would be 6 more the majority of Kindergarten) would help or not. It's something we have to decide before long. I am going to have the same decision in a few years from now with my younger son as well, who was born in October. See my posts about my son who is now 23. K-4 teachre recommended he not go to K-5. (mid July bday) He had behavior/attention issues. He actually had a few temper tantrums during K-4. He"failed" their end of the year maturity test. There were 2 items he failed on: What is your middle name? My son would only answer with his first, middle and last name. So he failed following directions Give kids 10 blocks and ask them to stack as high as they can. Test for motor skills. My DS definietly behind on motor skills (still is at 23!). He made 2 stacks of 5 and didn't want to try to go higher. As an engineer, I can tell you 2 stacks of 5 blocks is more stable than 1 of 10 blocks! So DS understood his limitations and made a better stack, but failed the test. We put him in K-5 anyway and are happy with the results. The things your son has issues with are things he will likely always have issues with, he just needs to learn to adapt. My son had some mild social issues all through school, he wasn't disliked but had no close friends. Nothing changed until college when he did complete 180.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 18, 2015 11:50:49 GMT -5
I didn't read the entire thread, but we held ds back a year for kindergarten and it was definitely worth it. At the end of his first year of preschool he still cried every morning at drop off. He just hated that we left him there. The 2nd year in pre-k he did great, so maybe he would have done great in kindergarten too for all we know.
Academically he is at the top of his class and scoring in late 1st to 2nd grade and we've been impressed how much they tailor homework and parent/student assignments to the childs ability. So that's all good.
But my question is when the hell did Kindergarten become first grade? I didn't learn to read or write in sentences in kindergarten. I remember learning to tell time and about money (with the toy grocery store in the classroom next to the play house). Ds kindergarten class sits at desks all day, and he's already done 2 standardized tests. I know they play and he has fun in school, but it seems crazy to push academics so much so young. Don't get me wrong--I want the kids to be better and smarter than me, but I'm not sure this is the way to do it.
DD will be on the opposite spectrum so we'll see what our thoughts are then.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 18, 2015 11:55:31 GMT -5
I don't remember what the heck I learned in kindergarten, shows how much of an impression it made. I do remember it was a huge deal when the school got computers. It was in first grade and that was the first time any of us had ever been exposed to that technology. Meanwhile having grown up with it my kid can run circles around me.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 18, 2015 11:57:57 GMT -5
I must be odd b/c I think it's great Gwen is learning to read at 5 years old. I see so many people/kids who don't appreciate books and I think that is terrible. I don't expect her to be able to read me War & Peace but I do get joy/pride out of listening her to attempt to read her library books to Abby. They still do music every other day (the other day is PE) and art once a week which is what they did when I was in elementary school. Gwen is taking after her grandmother, she has a lot of artistic talent. I can't draw my way out of a paper bag.
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WholeLottaNothin
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Post by WholeLottaNothin on Dec 18, 2015 11:59:15 GMT -5
I'm struggling with this decision for my son right now. He is 4.5 and in Pre-K. I went to his parent teacher conference about a month ago, and she basically said he is the smartest in the class but the worst behaved. On the evaluation they used, he knew much of the stuff they did not expect them to know until the end of the year. Sometimes I think he may be bored. I also feel that he is not socially ready, and could use more time. He does not read people well or pick up on their clues, and he does not listen as well as he should. His birthday is the beginning of June. So he will turn 5 this coming June, and if I put him into Kindergarten, he will be 5 for the majority of the year (school runs from Sept-June here). I don't know if waiting a year (and he would be 6 more the majority of Kindergarten) would help or not. It's something we have to decide before long. I am going to have the same decision in a few years from now with my younger son as well, who was born in October. See my posts about my son who is now 23. K-4 teachre recommended he not go to K-5. (mid July bday) He had behavior/attention issues. He actually had a few temper tantrums during K-4. He"failed" their end of the year maturity test. There were 2 items he failed on: What is your middle name? My son would only answer with his first, middle and last name. So he failed following directions Give kids 10 blocks and ask them to stack as high as they can. Test for motor skills. My DS definietly behind on motor skills (still is at 23!). He made 2 stacks of 5 and didn't want to try to go higher. As an engineer, I can tell you 2 stacks of 5 blocks is more stable than 1 of 10 blocks! So DS understood his limitations and made a better stack, but failed the test. We put him in K-5 anyway and are happy with the results. The things your son has issues with are things he will likely always have issues with, he just needs to learn to adapt. My son had some mild social issues all through school, he wasn't disliked but had no close friends. Nothing changed until college when he did complete 180. We are leaning toward sending him, I'm more concerned than my DH is about it. It won't let me bold on here for some reason, but the part you wrote where your son wasn't disliked but had no close friends, I can see that happening already. And it makes me sad for him. He tells me I'm his best friend, which is sweet. I just feel bad that he will have (and is having) a harder time socially, when socializing with peers is hard enough to begin with.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Dec 18, 2015 12:08:23 GMT -5
If I'd have waited for my youngest to have enough social maturity to be in school, I might still be waiting. He's 11. He's a July baby and no we didn't red shirt him. I got multiple calls in a year about him until maybe last year. He's the ADHD poster child and the impulse control just isn't always there, even when his pills are in full effect.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Dec 18, 2015 12:10:05 GMT -5
It must be dependent on the school system but I don't see it crowding out other activities. The kindergarteners have a list of words they are supposed to recognize by sight by the end of the year. Words like "dog, dad, is, you, we, me". They test at the beginning of the year to get a benchmark of each kid's abilities and then create a goal for each individual child.
The kids have to improve by a percentage by the end of the year but what that actual improvement consists of depends on where the kid started at the beginning of the year. A kid who couldn't read any words at the beginning of the year's progress is going to be different than a kid who recognized most of the list to begin with.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Dec 18, 2015 12:58:21 GMT -5
I think it's great when it's a choice and not an expectation that's tested in kindergarten and crowds out other activities. The kids rotate through PE, art, and music class, but the only reason they do any of that is because it is full day kindergarten. I totally understand now why the pre-k teachers so adamantly encouraged we stick with a full day K program. I'm borrowing problems because so far none of this has happened to us, but my concern is that the academic push so young is going to make learning a chore, or that the kids assign smart/dumb labels to themselves based on testing done at the age of 5 or 6. Ds loves learning, but I seriously doubt he considers any of the 'educational' stuff we do as learning. Its just playing and having fun and I want that to last as long as possible.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 18, 2015 13:09:45 GMT -5
My son, in full day kindergarten, has one day a week of PE, one day per week of music, and one day for art/library. I think that's ridiculous. IMO, I'd have 5 days/week for music and art. Maybe PE too. But they do get 3 recesses, so maybe not that necessary for more PE. I'd do lots more science, too. It seems like my highschool physics class could have been partly taught in kindergarten, so why not develop observation and intellectual curiosity early on?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Dec 18, 2015 15:12:48 GMT -5
But my question is when the hell did Kindergarten become first grade? I didn't learn to read or write in sentences in kindergarten. I remember learning to tell time and about money (with the toy grocery store in the classroom next to the play house). Ds kindergarten class sits at desks all day, and he's already done 2 standardized tests. I know they play and he has fun in school, but it seems crazy to push academics so much so young. Don't get me wrong--I want the kids to be better and smarter than me, but I'm not sure this is the way to do it. DD will be on the opposite spectrum so we'll see what our thoughts are then. For us, it was literally 4 years ago.... DS did not get a year of 4K. DD1 did. The difference in their work is astounding... The kids also do not sit in desks all day until 4/5th grade at our school. In 4K, Kindy, and First grade, they are set up to do 10-15 minute tasks at 3 different stations. The kids rotate through the stations..at the end of their 15 minutes, they get up, put their project in their mail slot, and move to the next spot. There's also lots of toys in the kids' 4K and kindy rooms, dress up things, a doll house, etc. They also have a fair amount of free choice time in 4K and Kindy. Not so much in 1st grade. But, even in 2nd grade, if the kids have good behavior for the week, on Friday, they get to have free choice/fun time. In 2nd-4th grade the kids are encouraged to do their work while sitting on balance balls rather than in chairs. I think it's hard to find a good medium. I know our choices were a public school 4K program where the goal was to have every child identify colors at the END of the year, recognize their name, print their first name, or something more academic. We chose academic. DD1 was 5 for most of 4K. She had spent two years in a nursery school type program learning/mastering colors, writing skills, etc prior to 4K. I couldn't imagine making her do another year of working on identifying colors..so Academic was really our only choice. And, I'm OK with it, TBH. Our school teaches Spanish to kids starting in either Kindy or 1st grade. By the time they get to 6th grade, they start working out of the books the HS kids use in the public schools. DS is totally ready and loves it. He doesn't feel pushed or anything. And, it's not about testing, per say, because our kids don't take standardized test for Spanish....
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NoNamePerson
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Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
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Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 18, 2015 15:20:56 GMT -5
I must be odd b/c I think it's great Gwen is learning to read at 5 years old. I see so many people/kids who don't appreciate books and I think that is terrible.
I don't expect her to be able to read me War & Peace but I do get joy/pride out of listening her to attempt to read her library books to Abby. They still do music every other day (the other day is PE) and art once a week which is what they did when I was in elementary school. Gwen is taking after her grandmother, she has a lot of artistic talent. I can't draw my way out of a paper bag. I don't find it odd. My son started learning to read at 5 and this was back in 71. I wasn't really sure how much was sinking in or being retained though until we went out to eat one night and waitress handed him a menu and he pointed to item (word) (no picture) and said I'll have gumbo to start!! So he at least had learned the word Gumbo
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