Ryan
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 16, 2014 13:40:36 GMT -5
Posts: 2,217
|
Post by Ryan on Dec 16, 2015 23:39:40 GMT -5
So my son has a late summer b-day and we went back/forth about whether to push him through or hold him back. In preschool, he was always the youngest in the class and it just seemed like he was way behind the curve socially when it came to interacting with his peers. After we found out from the principal that about 50% of the kids in our district red-shirt if they have a summer b-day (all of them boys), we just kept him back to play it safe.
For us, it turned out to be a great move. Maybe this would've worked out anyways, but it seems like it was good to give him some time to develop socially and put him at the head of the curve when it came to academics. Maybe that will be shortlived once the kids get older, but I don't think we'll ever regret the move.
He happens to be friends with a few boys that are a full year younger than him (summer b-days that were not held back). Obviously, I don't really talk about the reasons for holding him back when I talk with them (I'm sure it's obvious), but I kinda wonder if people get pissed when they find this out.
So what are your thoughts? Do you feel it's kind of gaming the system to hold a kid back?
|
|
cranberry
Established Member
Joined: Apr 14, 2014 20:26:34 GMT -5
Posts: 336
|
Post by cranberry on Dec 16, 2015 23:54:04 GMT -5
I don't have children, so perhaps I'm not qualified to content. But my nephew has a late summer birthday. He wasn't held back at first and while he didn't struggle sp much academically, he was socially behind. He was also diagnosed with Asperger's in third grade, so they held him back that year. It was the best thing for him, I think. He got the services he needed, but also had time to develop in other ways.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 17, 2015 0:00:11 GMT -5
I thought the term red shirting referred to holding a kid back specifically to gain an advantage on sporting teams. Holding kids back for social and academic reasons has always been a legitimate choice.
My DB's b-day is Sept. 3rd. My dad once mentioned that he regretted not holding him back. In retrospect, it might have helped with the ADD issue.
|
|
HoneyBBQ
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 10:36:09 GMT -5
Posts: 5,395
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"3b444e"}
|
Post by HoneyBBQ on Dec 17, 2015 0:10:50 GMT -5
No, I think it's appropriate for them to move up when they are developmentally ready to.
On my side, my DD is born in Dec and the cut off is October. She is clearly ready to move up 'academically' and she will be socially but we won't be able to and she'll have to do pre-k AGAIN. Or we may go the private K route in which we can get around the age rules as long as she tests gifted/whatever.
|
|
whoisjohngalt
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:12:07 GMT -5
Posts: 9,140
|
Post by whoisjohngalt on Dec 17, 2015 0:23:44 GMT -5
My kids are not in school, so I don't know how I would feel if I had to make that decision.
However, they are in a music class with kids who go to regular public school. 5 out of 6 kids were held back. The ONLY reason the 6th kid wasn't held back is bc the town didn't allow it. Evidently each town can make their own decisions. Moms of those 5 kids told me that most of the kids in their kids' classes are the same age, so K consists of mostly 6 yr olds.
I thought it was such a silly thing to do bc all it did is make most of the Kers in those classes 6 yrs old and not really give anyone any advantage over anyone else.
That being said, may be somewhere somehow school G-ds will get the hit that kids are being pushed too young into too much and will re-think the whole thing. I doubt it, though.
In the meantime, I think the age is being artificially moved in all the grades
ETA: All the kids in that music class have summer bdays, so I would have thought it was veyr clear cut. They were all 6 before school started.
|
|
|
Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Dec 17, 2015 4:03:17 GMT -5
My old boss had a set of boy/girl twins. The girl was better advanced than the boy, but both started school together. They went to K and first grade, but there were major issues with his boy.
When we got transferred to TX, he girl went on to second grade, but he kept his son in first grade for another year. That additional year made the world of difference in how well he did. Even though he was at the proper grade level with his twin, the emotional/developmental lag was enough that having an age wise comparison in the family exacerbated the differences.
|
|
buster
Established Member
Joined: Mar 20, 2011 23:44:04 GMT -5
Posts: 260
|
Post by buster on Dec 17, 2015 5:06:05 GMT -5
Freakonomics talks about this phenomenon with regards to hockey and the month children are born. I don't remember the specifics, but something like 75% of pro hockey players are born in three specific months. The reason being is when the kids first start playing hockey, they are the oldest and typically the most coordinated of their peers. As the better player on the team, they get more focused coaching and opportunities to lead. This in turn carries over year after year until the kid is ready for college/pros. The book obviously goes into a lot more detail on this, but it's really fascinating how much birth month can impact success in the future.
|
|
yogiii
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 19:38:00 GMT -5
Posts: 5,377
|
Post by yogiii on Dec 17, 2015 6:18:02 GMT -5
DS has a May b-day and because of all the holding back is the youngest in his class. I don't have a problem with it, he seems to be about average on most things. I'd rather at this stage he doesn't think he's the smartest thing around and has to work/put effort into a job well done .
|
|
moon/Laura
Administrator
Forum Owner
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 15:05:36 GMT -5
Posts: 10,088
Mini-Profile Text Color: f8fb10
|
Post by moon/Laura on Dec 17, 2015 6:27:05 GMT -5
My son has a bday in early August, and he squeaked by the cutoff date by a matter of days, if I recall correctly. He was ready though, even though he's one of the youngest in his class. He'd always been around other kids (private day care) so he was socialized and used to being away from me. I also put him in full day kindergarten (which often costs money here, to reduce parents thinking of school as free day care), for that same reason.
I really think it has to do with that child's own "readiness" as to whether they are held back, or not.
|
|
ners
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 16:21:18 GMT -5
Posts: 6,602
|
Post by ners on Dec 17, 2015 6:31:41 GMT -5
My niece has an August birthday. When I told my friend a preschool teacher she was being held back. She applauded my brother in law's decision.
|
|
yogiii
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 19:38:00 GMT -5
Posts: 5,377
|
Post by yogiii on Dec 17, 2015 6:43:52 GMT -5
My niece has an August birthday. When I told my friend a preschool teacher she was being held back. She applauded my brother in law's decision. Does she know your niece? I feel like it is so dependent on the individual. I have a September b-day, so was 4 for the first couple weeks of kindergarten. I was mostly bored in school my whole life. Holding me back would not have been a good thing.
|
|
Shooby
Senior Associate
Joined: Jan 17, 2013 0:32:36 GMT -5
Posts: 14,782
Mini-Profile Name Color: 1cf04f
|
Post by Shooby on Dec 17, 2015 6:55:48 GMT -5
I don't think it matters. Somebody has to be the oldest and somebody has to be the youngest. That becomes less and less important as they move through. So, maybe it has benefits in one area but not another. If you think your kid isn't quite ready, then don't send them yet. If you do, then do.
|
|
wvugurl26
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 15:25:30 GMT -5
Posts: 21,882
|
Post by wvugurl26 on Dec 17, 2015 7:10:14 GMT -5
My brother has a December birthday. He would have benefited from being one of the youngest instead of one of the oldest. He admits he would have been more challenged and caused fewer problems. School was never difficult for him.
My aunt had her youngest repeat second grade when they moved. It was the right choice and since they moved to a different state over the summer no one knew.
My bf's sister held her oldest back. Absolutely the right decision as the girl is still emotionally immature compared to her classmates.
I was one of the youngest. I would have been bored out of my skull if I was held back. I graduated in top 10% and earned a full scholarship and was admitted to honors college. Never had to really study until college.
I think this is dependent on the kid.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 8:45:37 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 7:11:20 GMT -5
Freakonomics talks about this phenomenon with regards to hockey and the month children are born. I don't remember the specifics, but something like 75% of pro hockey players are born in three specific months. The reason being is when the kids first start playing hockey, they are the oldest and typically the most coordinated of their peers. As the better player on the team, they get more focused coaching and opportunities to lead. This in turn carries over year after year until the kid is ready for college/pros. The book obviously goes into a lot more detail on this, but it's really fascinating how much birth month can impact success in the future. I don't know anything about Freakonomics, but this is precisely the example used in Outliers, last year's summer reading book. I thought the guy claimed it was his original research. Maybe the other book was citing him.
The book is also about how birth year can impact success. The students really enjoyed it.
|
|
ners
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 16:21:18 GMT -5
Posts: 6,602
|
Post by ners on Dec 17, 2015 7:12:53 GMT -5
yogiii She did not know my niece personally. She did know the fact that my niece was 7 weeks premature and had lost her mother when she was 2. My niece's pre-school teachers had recommended holding her back. My friend applauded the fact that my brother in law listened.
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,910
|
Post by zibazinski on Dec 17, 2015 7:31:20 GMT -5
Depends on the kid. DS has a July borthday and academically was fine. Did great on K. Had a teacher in 1st who didn't like boys and he had a tough year. 2nd grade he was fine and continued to do so. His problem came as a F sophomore in HS. A lot of his male friends who had been held back got their permits and he was too young. Not a huge issue. DD has an early January birthday and was totally miserable in K. Thankfully it was fine after that. As kids come from other schools as well, he won't be the youngest. Florida has a 9/1 cutoff. Michigan at the time we moved to Florida had a 12/1 cutoff. DS would have been the oldest one starting K in our neighborhood. I would have considered starting him a year later if we'd have always lived in Florida but honestly any issues socially work themselves out after a few years anyway.
|
|
Cookies Galore
Senior Associate
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 18:08:13 GMT -5
Posts: 10,891
|
Post by Cookies Galore on Dec 17, 2015 7:32:30 GMT -5
My birthday is September 1, which was the cut off date for my school district. I was not ready for kindergarten and ended up repeating. Not just anyone can say they failed nap time!
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 8:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 8:13:02 GMT -5
I think kids should go to school when they are ready. In PA mandatory schooling doesn't start till age 8. I'm all for whatever works best for the individual.
One social thing that does come up later, like the not being able to drive/driving first thing, is that being in high school at 18 when girls tend to start younger means you really should know your state Romeo and Juliet type laws before dating.
|
|
busymom
Distinguished Associate
Why is the rum always gone? Oh...that's why.
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 21:09:36 GMT -5
Posts: 29,226
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"https://cdn.nickpic.host/images/IPauJ5.jpg","color":""}
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0D317F
Mini-Profile Text Color: 0D317F
|
Post by busymom on Dec 17, 2015 8:28:51 GMT -5
Girls tend to mature more quickly than boys. DS was NOT ready for Kindergarten, and although it was difficult for me, waiting that extra year was a benefit for him. My SIL came to the same conclusion with her son, that he wasn't ready at age 5, and she did the same thing. Neither of us regret holding the boys back now, as they are doing just fine in school.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Dec 17, 2015 8:41:38 GMT -5
I did it with DD for social and maturity reasons, not academics. She was born in October, the cut off is November 30, but redshirting in this district pretty common. The district also has a Developmental Kindergarten program for those kids who complete K but aren't quite ready for 1st grade. It consists mostly of kids with late summer/fall birthdays.
I think it was a good decision for DD.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 8:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 8:43:19 GMT -5
It's so strange how widely cutoff dates vary from place to place...
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 8:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 8:44:46 GMT -5
Both my sons are Summer babies but it never came up to hold them back until age 6. I don't think it's very common at our school. They both started preschool at the same school they'd be going to Kindy...actually the same classroom, so 3 years in the same class seemed like enough to me. Plus they were aware of their "rank" by that time and would have been upset to not move on with the rest.
Oldest is in 8th grade now and he does have social issues, but I think this is more due to the fact that until about 3rd or 4th grade he was freakishly advanced academically and he didn't fit in with the kids that weren't reading chapter books in Kindy and weren't into discussing advanced astronomy topics. I don't think he ever figured out proper interpersonal relationship rules with his peers and now he struggles there. Academically he has no issues and even though he is the youngest in his class he's also the biggest and has been since Kindy...but with zero athletic ability. He's still looking for his niche. Scouts is his only social extracurricular and being younger is an advantage there. Joining is based on grade, but he has until 18 to complete requirements for Eagle, so he gets an extra year over the ones that started Kindy at 6.
Younger son started Kindy this year so still too early to decide if it was a good decision or not, but he is doing great both academically and socially.
Looking at it from the other end, I kind of like the idea that my kids won't turn 18 until they're done with high school.
|
|
swamp
Community Leader
THEY’RE EATING THE DOGS!!!!!!!
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 16:03:22 GMT -5
Posts: 45,617
|
Post by swamp on Dec 17, 2015 8:46:00 GMT -5
It's so strange how widely cutoff dates vary from place to place... NY seems to be alone with the 11/30 cut off, so if DD goes to college outside of NYS and I did not hold her back, she definitely would be one of the younger ones. I don't want her to be the youngest one at college. Mostly I'm worried about her getting arrested for using a fake ID if all her friends are legal and she wants to go out with them.
|
|
teen persuasion
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:49 GMT -5
Posts: 4,161
|
Post by teen persuasion on Dec 17, 2015 8:47:44 GMT -5
Cutoff here is 12/1, so summer birthdays are not borderline here. Three of my kids have fall birthdays, and we never considered holding them back, at all. In fact, we watched DD1 (October birthday) be unchallenged and bored silly until a wonderful teacher got her included in the next grade lessons for reading and math, which later led to DD1's inclusion in combo classes. Since DS2 has a March birthday, and would be 6 months older when he began Kindergarten, we petitioned the school to enroll DS2 early. They refused, saying they'd move him up a grade if necessary later. Never happened. He followed his sister's lead, and jumped ahead in reading and math (same wonderful teacher), and the combo classes afterwards.
I've always understood that the term red-shirt referred to holding kids back only to gain an advantage in sports by their physical maturity, not social or academic maturity. I think the kids should start when they are ready, not per some schedule set in stone. If my kids weren't ready for school, yes I'd hold them back. But hold them back academically just to gain a sports advantage, no. Of course, that depends on the sport, too. My boys found they love running. DS2 started in HS, but DS4 tagged along to captain's practices for years before he could join JV in MS. The year he'd be able to join, the district cut modified sports (MS). He did selective classification, and actually ran varsity, not JV. So even as an undersized MS student, he was in the top 7.
Kids should be allowed to compete/ learn at the age appropriate to THEM. I really dislike the "age cohort" method. Education is not one size age fits all.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Dec 17, 2015 8:54:33 GMT -5
There was an article I read recently about a study finding significant benefits of delaying kindergarten. This isn't the same article--seems to leave out some things--but it gives you the gist. ed.stanford.edu/news/stanford-gse-research-finds-strong-evidence-mental-health-benefits-delaying-kindergartenDS1 started kindy this year at 5--birthday at the end of February. He's done great. Only 1 slight downgrade on his whole report card--self-confidence. <--proud mama here It seems to be the norm for ages in his class. Michigan recently moved up cut-off dates from Dec 1 to Sep 1. DS2 has an early October birthday. He's only 3 now, but is able to do some things that his older brother is learning in Kindy. Last night, DS1 was practicing counting for is homework, and delayed after 39 (like he tends to do--watching TV) and DS2 says, "40". I think he's going to be really bored unless he starts school soon. Socially, though, is another matter. Damn stubborn kid! Isn't potty trained yet, and has no inclination to want to try. So, socially, it would probably be best to start him at the regular time, which will be one month of 5, then 6 years old. I'm afraid he might be bored academically, though. However, I don't think he'll like the structure of the private school, if they were to let him start earlier.
|
|
ArchietheDragon
Junior Associate
Joined: Jul 7, 2014 14:29:23 GMT -5
Posts: 6,379
|
Post by ArchietheDragon on Dec 17, 2015 8:59:38 GMT -5
My wife teaches "transitional kindergarten" which is a class specifically for redshirted kindergarteners. After her class most of the kids go on to kindergarten, but a few have skipped kindergarten and went right to 1st grade. The program is about 7 or 8 years old and the first year it was all boys. Now she has a pretty even mix of boys and girls.
For the most part the kids benefits greatly. They really are much more ready for kindergarten after the extra year.
That said, both of my girls are in the birthday zone where we could have red shirted them (CT cutoff of January 1), but we won't with either. Our older daughter is in 2nd grade and doing good and our younger daughter will go to kindergarten next year. Both will have started kindergarten as 4 years olds and then turn 5 early in the school year.
We will see what we will do with our son.
|
|
NoNamePerson
Distinguished Associate
Is There Anybody OUT There?
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 17:03:17 GMT -5
Posts: 26,212
Location: WITNESS PROTECTION
Member is Online
|
Post by NoNamePerson on Dec 17, 2015 9:06:29 GMT -5
My EX SIL taught 8th grade. Don't remember the subject but one day she decided to write down names of boys in her class that she thought entered lst grade right at the cut off. She said she was right on except for two. Of course, she thought all 13 yr old boys should be set adrift on a raft Oh and she had a boy. My son was 6 yrs and 4 months when he entered the 1st grade. He did fine and he turned 18 the last day of high school. Guess I should say he went to 3 yr "play school" and 4yr "play school" (4 hrs 3 days a week) I sent him to give me a break and he was an only child and figured he better learn to interact with other kids too. He went to all day kindergarten after that. This was back in dark ages I used to tell people he was doing post graduate work by the time he hit first grade
|
|
gs11rmb
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 12:43:39 GMT -5
Posts: 3,365
Member is Online
|
Post by gs11rmb on Dec 17, 2015 9:21:42 GMT -5
Cut-off date in Georgia is 9/1 and that is my youngest daughter's birthday. As school returns the first week of August she will still be four when she starts K. Her original due date was 9/15 and I was very concerned about her being the oldest in her class. There was a Bill introduced into Georgia's Congress this year to move the cut-off date to August 1st and eventually July 1st and I ended up testifying before both the House and Senate against the proposal! The most recent literature indicates that late starts are not academically good over the long-term. The kids who are older and most advanced do much better and the younger ones have to work much harder. By the time students reach middle school, the younger children start to surpass the older and it never event out. Younger students do better in college, advanced education, careers, etc.
That being said, there are often good reasons to hold back a student who is not academically or socially ready and they do just fine. I'm not trying to imply that anyone on this board who held back their kids did the wrong thing just that the overall evidence doesn't support that redshirting children provides an academic advantage.
|
|
steph08
Junior Associate
Joined: Jan 3, 2011 13:06:01 GMT -5
Posts: 5,504
|
Post by steph08 on Dec 17, 2015 9:30:47 GMT -5
The cutoff at our school is August 31. I was born August 8, wasn't held back, and graduated second in my class. I never struggled academically in elementary or high school and rarely in college. My brother has a June birthday, he wasn't held back, and also did well academically.
It is all very dependent on the child. For us, redshirting us for kindergarten would have been terrible.
My DD is a late June birthday and this new one will be sometime in April/May. I doubt I will hold them back.
Someone mentioned in the WIR kids thread that they know people who play on having babies in the Fall (where the cutoff is 9/1 or whatever) so they will have the oldest kids in the class, providing them an "academic advantage." However, I can think of some of the oldest kids in my class and no, that was not true at all. The top students were August, March, and January.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: Oct 7, 2024 8:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2015 9:32:15 GMT -5
I really don't like the term 'hold back'... For those kids not ready I think 'not push' is more apt...
|
|