Same God or not? Facts vs. fear.

[fishy999]

Next week- our local right wing radio jerk is hosting a 'discussion of the important issues' when it comes to how Islam is portrayed in school textbooks (in other words he is going to spend two hours pleading his one sided case).  

The bullet points- Islam is not a religion of peace (easy one), but the second- that we do not worship the same God- is the new point.

So- for all of you religious scholars- the fact that it is the same God- or at least started that way- are you going to defend a lie or stand up for the truth?  Our God, their God, how utterly stupid.  That's what ISIS wants- a war of Gods.  

 

 

[b2r]

Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God?    No they do not.

 
Muslims do not speak of God as their heavenly Father. In the Islamic faith, Allah is not only a different name for god; the deity it designates is far more impersonal than the God of the Bible. Father—the very name that Jesus gave us as the designated name for use in prayer—is a name that simply does not fit Allah as depicted in the Quran.



Furthermore, Muslims claim that Allah has no son. This represents a head-on collision between the God of the Bible and Allah. For, as the Bible makes clear, the one and only true God is most perfectly revealed as the Father of the Son, Jesus Christ. In the Gospel of John, Jesus repeatedly teaches that no one has truly known the Father, except by the Son. In one of the most clarifying verses in the New Testament, Jesus declared Himself to be “the way, and the truth, and the life,” adding, “No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6).



Because Muslims deny that God has a son, they explicitly reject any Trinitarian language. From the very starting point, Islam denies what Christianity takes as its central truth claim: the fact that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father. If Allah has no son, then Allah is not the God who reveals Himself through the Son. How then can calling God “Allah” not lead to anything but confusion—and worse?

billygraham.org/decision-magazine/december-2013/do-christians-and-muslims-worship-the-same-god/

[b2r]

[Deleted]

So b2r... Jewish people also worship a different God?


Eta... And several branches of Christianity which reject trinity language... They must worship a different God too...

Many of our founding fathers as well...

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Dec 15, 2015 3:43:33 GMT -5 b2r said:

Do Muslims and Christians Worship the Same God?    No they do not.

Certainly not in the same way. The Koran is filled with half truths and blatant lies. So while there is only one God, it's the views on the outcome of what's next that makes all the difference in the world.

[Deleted]

Can you give an example of 'half truth or lie'

[Artemis Windsong]

The one true God is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Ishmil is that start of Islam.

[fishy999]

Seems to me Muslims are just an offshoot of the original religion of Abraham as are Christians- which of course leads to other sects further from the origins such as the Mormons.  

It is the same God- hence why Muslims consider Jesus at a minimum a prophet.  Saying Muslims worship a 'different God than ours'- which I hear all of the time on talk radio- is pretty much a lie.  If that is the case then all sects and offshoots worship different Gods.

Sort of like another BS idea- that the only way to 'heaven' is through Jesus and the Christian religion- everyone else is effed.  IMO if one thinks their religion is the one true path and all others are false, then they are delusional.  To use the Christian example, another way of stating their claim is that Muslims and Jews are going to hell- right along with all of the other religions that are different. Kind of sounds just like the others. 

[busymom]

My understanding of Islam is that Jesus is viewed as a Prophet, but nothing more. And, they do not believe Jesus was ever crucified.

Christianity focuses on the triune God: The Father, The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. And, that Jesus was crucified for our sins.

[Deleted]

The Jews also see Jesus as a prophet. So do many deists. Not all Christian groups use/believe in trinity. Does that mean they all worship a different God? 

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Dec 15, 2015 21:56:05 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

The one true God is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Ishmil is that start of Islam.

Exactly, Abraham's other son. The Ishmilities were a huge tribe from the East, the same area that Job was from.

Great point, Art!

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

Dec 15, 2015 23:11:43 GMT -5 busymom said:

My understanding of Islam is that Jesus is viewed as a Prophet, but nothing more. And, they do not believe Jesus was ever crucified.

Christianity focuses on the triune God: The Father, The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. And, that Jesus was crucified for our sins.

Jesus is viewed as the Messiah in Islam as well. He was born from a Virgin in Koran as well. He is also instrumental in the "end of days" views of Islam as well. It's true they don't think he was crucified, but ascended to heaven before his enemies got him.

The other big thing is that the Koran is essentially the Gospel of Barnabas and other gnostic texts that Muhammad assembled then added his life story to(through Aisha).

Long story short, Muhammad was a Christian and Islam is Muhammad's version of Christianity, at least it was until about 50 years after he died. At which point Aisha was calling our Muslims for not following the true words of the prophet.

Most of us know which version of the New Testimonials will be verified as gospel - and what that will mean - and what we will have to go through to get to that point.

Stay Mom.

[b2r]

  Well, this may explain why most muslims are democrats and most democrats are open to islam...



Walid Shoebat Exposes Lies of Islam Allah is not God but Satan the deciever

[b2r]

  

[fishy999]

You get that from Alex Jones?  Methinks you are just a bomb thrower- which is fine, but you can't change history.

BTW is Obama the Antichrist in your estimation? 

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 15, 2015 6:54:03 GMT -5 oped said:

So b2r... Jewish people also worship a different God?


Eta... And several branches of Christianity which reject trinity language... They must worship a different God too...

Many of our founding fathers as well...

They do, to a large extent.

God is revealed though His Law, His commandments, His works, through the son, and through the testimonies of scripture (i.e. the ways in which God, through the son, interacted with the various personages in the Bible).

Christians know God differently in the sense that most Christian denominations depart markedly from scripture in their canon. It's not unlike how two different movie directors can take a look at a classic novel and turn it into two completely different types of movie by selectively emphasizing, omitting, adding, and substituting in order to fit a narrative.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is even starker because the directors don't even start with the same novel. God as described in the Qur'an is very different from God as described in the Bible. The two are in fact polar opposites in many regards. The Bible admonishes Christians in Joshua 24:14 and elsewhere, "Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD.", where we see that truth (knowing the true God; seeking Him) is an important element in addition to sincerity.

There are indeed a great many sincere individuals who know little or nothing about the true God. The Bible refers to the full embodiment of an individual (as well as God and Jesus Christ) as the "name" of that individual. In other words, "the name of God" stands for all that God is and represents. Christ warns in Mark 13:6, "Many will come in my name and say, 'I AM,' and they will deceive many people."  Many will come claiming to represent what he represents, claiming the "name" of God and His Christ, and will deceive many. Any departure from God as described in the Bible is an example of others coming in His name, striving to overwrite what He is with man-made deceptions. Hence it's accurate to say that an ultra-liberal Anglican minister believes in a very different God from a Westboro Baptist minister, even though both worship the God of Abraham.

In summary, God can't be dissociated from His works, laws, and Word. Knowing that He exists and that such and such patriarchs worshiped Him isn't sufficient to know Him. 1 John 3:23-24: "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

You're talking about representation though, Virg. Just because facts are presented in different ways, it doesn't change the central idea. Understanding that we are all supposed to love each other while praising God and letting God be the ultimate judge isn't that complex - yet for some reason it's far to complex for the majority of humans to practice in their daily lives.

For some reason it takes what is coming next in the east for the whole of mankind to sit up and take notice that a power far great than mankind exists in the universe. However, praise God that we live in North America - the one place left that is still working - even though many a pundit has called for its demise in: 2010,2011,2012,2013,2014,2015.....

[ArchietheDragon]

since there is only one God, of course they worship the same God.    


The question should not be do they worship the same God or not, it should be do they worship God or not.   Only a small handful of Evangelical Christians worship God.  The rest of the world does not worship God. 

[swamp]

Dec 18, 2015 0:09:22 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 15, 2015 6:54:03 GMT -5 oped said:

So b2r... Jewish people also worship a different God?


Eta... And several branches of Christianity which reject trinity language... They must worship a different God too...

Many of our founding fathers as well...

They do, to a large extent.

God is revealed though His Law, His commandments, His works, through the son, and through the testimonies of scripture (i.e. the ways in which God, through the son, interacted with the various personages in the Bible).

Christians know God differently in the sense that most Christian denominations depart markedly from scripture in their canon. It's not unlike how two different movie directors can take a look at a classic novel and turn it into two completely different types of movie by selectively emphasizing, omitting, adding, and substituting in order to fit a narrative.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is even starker because the directors don't even start with the same novel. God as described in the Qur'an is very different from God as described in the Bible. The two are in fact polar opposites in many regards. The Bible admonishes Christians in Joshua 24:14 and elsewhere, "Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD.", where we see that truth (knowing the true God; seeking Him) is an important element in addition to sincerity.

There are indeed a great many sincere individuals who know little or nothing about the true God. The Bible refers to the full embodiment of an individual (as well as God and Jesus Christ) as the "name" of that individual. In other words, "the name of God" stands for all that God is and represents. Christ warns in Mark 13:6, "Many will come in my name and say, 'I AM,' and they will deceive many people."  Many will come claiming to represent what he represents, claiming the "name" of God and His Christ, and will deceive many. Any departure from God as described in the Bible is an example of others coming in His name, striving to overwrite what He is with man-made deceptions. Hence it's accurate to say that an ultra-liberal Anglican minister believes in a very different God from a Westboro Baptist minister, even though both worship the God of Abraham.

In summary, God can't be dissociated from His works, laws, and Word. Knowing that He exists and that such and such patriarchs worshiped Him isn't sufficient to know Him. 1 John 3:23-24: "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

You do realize you are doing the same thing?  

You don't have any better of a handle on what God wants than any other mortal being.   We all have to wait until we are dead until we find out. 

[Deleted]

Consider that there is no God, what then would divide us?

[Aman A.K.A. Ahamburger]

What would divide us? Kings and Queens. Politics. Land. County of origin. Colour of skin, etc, etc, etc.

Dec 18, 2015 10:42:52 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

since there is only one God, of course they worship the same God.    


The question should not be do they worship the same God or not, it should be do they worship God or not.   Only a small handful of Evangelical Christians worship God.  The rest of the world does not worship God. 

The contrarian view has a tendency to go mainstream when there is substance in those views.

[Robert not Bobby]

Dec 15, 2015 0:04:49 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Next week- our local right wing radio jerk is hosting a 'discussion of the important issues' when it comes to how Islam is portrayed in school textbooks (in other words he is going to spend two hours pleading his one sided case).  

The bullet points- Islam is not a religion of peace (easy one), but the second- that we do not worship the same God- is the new point.

So- for all of you religious scholars- the fact that it is the same God- or at least started that way- are you going to defend a lie or stand up for the truth?  Our God, their God, how utterly stupid.  That's what ISIS wants- a war of Gods.  

 

 

Sort of well said.

I'm agnostic (born and raised Catholic), so those kinds of messages don't resonate with me.

If there is a "GOD", I guess there is only one that you all worship and call different names...sorry, that would be gods messenger that you call different names.

In my opinion, ISIS consists of a bunch of confused young men and women who want to take us back to the 8h century. For them there is some kind of purity to that. It is also the product of a political vacuum in Syria and Iraq.

My huge problem with Islam is that it doesn't respect the division of church and state. I don't care who or what you worship, just don't try to shove it down my throat...and we can all live happily side by side.



I'm not a religious guy, but I will defend your right to worship a snail...just go go beheading people, talking women that are not of your sect as sex slaves, etc...

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 18, 2015 10:46:12 GMT -5 swamp said:

Dec 18, 2015 0:09:22 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

They do, to a large extent.

God is revealed though His Law, His commandments, His works, through the son, and through the testimonies of scripture (i.e. the ways in which God, through the son, interacted with the various personages in the Bible).

Christians know God differently in the sense that most Christian denominations depart markedly from scripture in their canon. It's not unlike how two different movie directors can take a look at a classic novel and turn it into two completely different types of movie by selectively emphasizing, omitting, adding, and substituting in order to fit a narrative.

The difference between Christianity and Islam is even starker because the directors don't even start with the same novel. God as described in the Qur'an is very different from God as described in the Bible. The two are in fact polar opposites in many regards. The Bible admonishes Christians in Joshua 24:14 and elsewhere, "Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD.", where we see that truth (knowing the true God; seeking Him) is an important element in addition to sincerity.

There are indeed a great many sincere individuals who know little or nothing about the true God. The Bible refers to the full embodiment of an individual (as well as God and Jesus Christ) as the "name" of that individual. In other words, "the name of God" stands for all that God is and represents. Christ warns in Mark 13:6, "Many will come in my name and say, 'I AM,' and they will deceive many people."  Many will come claiming to represent what he represents, claiming the "name" of God and His Christ, and will deceive many. Any departure from God as described in the Bible is an example of others coming in His name, striving to overwrite what He is with man-made deceptions. Hence it's accurate to say that an ultra-liberal Anglican minister believes in a very different God from a Westboro Baptist minister, even though both worship the God of Abraham.

In summary, God can't be dissociated from His works, laws, and Word. Knowing that He exists and that such and such patriarchs worshiped Him isn't sufficient to know Him. 1 John 3:23-24: "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us."

You do realize you are doing the same thing?  

You don't have any better of a handle on what God wants than any other mortal being.   We all have to wait until we are dead until we find out. 

And on what basis does your determination rest?

You have no way of knowing the degree to which my knowledge of God comports with scripture, nor do you know how well every other mortal being's knowledge of God comports with scripture. Your judgments mean nothing.

If you're claiming that scripture isn't the means by which man comes to know the mind of God, so be it. We fundamentally disagree and it isn't worth arguing over.

If you're claiming that there is no accurate, holistic, defensible interpretation of scripture, we fundamentally disagree on that too. You might as well be arguing that there exists no accurate, holistic, defensible interpretation of global climate data, which isn't true either.

I doubt you've ever studied scripture, debated it, or tested it. You haven't researched the origins of churches' beliefs and doctrines. You haven't studied what different Christian denominations believe and why. You don't know what churches have syncretized, added, or removed. You don't know what they rest their beliefs on, what they teach in their seminaries, where their dogma originates, what resources they consider authoritative.

If I had to guess, you've blindly assumed that because so many Christians believe so many different things, there can't possibly be an accurate, holistic, defensible interpretation of scripture. One man's conceptions are as valid as any other's. But somewhere on this Earth there is a true church with an understanding of the truth. Not necessarily a worldly organization, but a like-minded group of individuals spanning the globe, dedicated to studying, living, and feeding on the whole word of God in sincerity and in truth. The Bible calls it "the little flock" as well as "the Church of God". And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. That's scriptural.

[Deleted]

No offence but I often wonder why aren’t more intellectuals believers, a bit of research shows that many in depth studies indicate that atheists tend to be smarter than Christians.


A fact about American atheists... (since their growth has been primarily in the last two decades) is that most of them were raised in Christian, or at least theist homes. These disproportionately intelligent people are rejecting Christianity based on their experience within the Christian community.



Could the problem be the attitude that Christians have toward other Christians who question the fundamentals of the faith? Most are viewed as less solid in their walk or unconnected to God. This mindset is incredibly damaging for the future of Christianity.

[ktunes]

oddly enough.. most christians don't worship the God of the bible...

[Virgil Showlion]

Dec 18, 2015 17:52:14 GMT -5 @joey said:

No offence but I often wonder why aren’t more intellectuals believers, a bit of research shows that many in depth studies indicate that atheists tend to be smarter than Christians.

For you see your calling, brothers, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

- 1 Corinthians 1:22-29, AKJV

Dec 18, 2015 17:52:14 GMT -5 @joey said:

A fact about American atheists... (since their growth has been primarily in the last two decades) is that most of them were raised in Christian, or at least theist homes. These disproportionately intelligent people are rejecting Christianity based on their experience within the Christian community.

I've observed as much with some of my own atheist friends and colleagues. They fell away when confronted with judgments, hypocrisy, self-righteousness, contradictory values, etc. in the churches they grew up in.

It's a fine line for Christians to walk. On one hand, Christians are to be "the light of the world" (Matthew 5:14) and to "live peaceably with all men" (Romans 12:18) as much as possible. However, Christians must also "judge righteous judgment" (John 7:24), condemn evil without hypocrisy (Romans 1:28-32), and to judge matters of the brethren and the church (1 Corinthians 6:2-3).

Christians have no need to "convert the world". God has no use for compromising His law. He has no use for menpleasers, the cowardly, or churches that pervert doctrines in order to appeal to a broader audience. Christians are to be zealous and to hold fast to Biblical teachings (2 Thessalonians 2:15) and to our confession (Hebrews 4:14). In short, any disciple of Christ must choose to adapt to his teachings, the teachings shouldn't adapt to attract or hold a greater number of people. Unfortunately, most churches throughout the ages have taken this latter approach.

Many other scriptures talk about how Christians are to interact with society and with unconverted individuals. It's an extremely detailed topic. Suffice it to say that Christians must exercise discernment with what to say, when to say it, and whom to say it to.

Dec 18, 2015 17:52:14 GMT -5 @joey said:

Could the problem be the attitude that Christians have toward other Christians who question the fundamentals of the faith? Most are viewed as less solid in their walk or unconnected to God. This mindset is incredibly damaging for the future of Christianity.

Speaking as to the future of true Christianity:

And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night to him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man comes, shall he find faith on the earth?

- Luke 18:7-8, AKJV

2 Thessalonians 2 talks about the great "falling away" (or it can also be translated "rebellion" or "apostasy") immediately preceding the end of the age. Amos 3 talks about a "famine of hearing the words of the LORD" in the same time period.

These and other prophecies indicate that true Christian faith--the words preached and lived by Christ and the early disciples--will be exceedingly rare in the years leading up to Christ's return.

Am I looking forward to it? No. But it is what it is.

[Shooby]

Dec 18, 2015 12:55:36 GMT -5 @joey said:

Consider that there is no God, what then would divide us?

A million other things.   

[Shooby]

Why don't you ask Muslim radicals who are killing people who don't believe in their God?   Christians aren't killing people for not believing.  Who uses the iron fist of killing?  Islam.  Who uses the iron fist of jail, property confiscation, etc for not following in line?  Governments.

[swamp]

Dec 18, 2015 16:35:08 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Dec 18, 2015 10:46:12 GMT -5 swamp said:

You do realize you are doing the same thing?  

You don't have any better of a handle on what God wants than any other mortal being.   We all have to wait until we are dead until we find out. 

And on what basis does your determination rest?

You have no way of knowing the degree to which my knowledge of God comports with scripture, nor do you know how well every other mortal being's knowledge of God comports with scripture. Your judgments mean nothing.

If you're claiming that scripture isn't the means by which man comes to know the mind of God, so be it. We fundamentally disagree and it isn't worth arguing over.

If you're claiming that there is no accurate, holistic, defensible interpretation of scripture, we fundamentally disagree on that too. You might as well be arguing that there exists no accurate, holistic, defensible interpretation of global climate data, which isn't true either.

I doubt you've ever studied scripture, debated it, or tested it. You haven't researched the origins of churches' beliefs and doctrines. You haven't studied what different Christian denominations believe and why. You don't know what churches have syncretized, added, or removed. You don't know what they rest their beliefs on, what they teach in their seminaries, where their dogma originates, what resources they consider authoritative.

If I had to guess, you've blindly assumed that because so many Christians believe so many different things, there can't possibly be an accurate, holistic, defensible interpretation of scripture. One man's conceptions are as valid as any other's. But somewhere on this Earth there is a true church with an understanding of the truth. Not necessarily a worldly organization, but a like-minded group of individuals spanning the globe, dedicated to studying, living, and feeding on the whole word of God in sincerity and in truth. The Bible calls it "the little flock" as well as "the Church of God". And the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. That's scriptural.

Ipsa Dixit.

[mroped]

Yes, both have/pray the same God. As it was already said Ishmael and Israel share a father therefore they are half brothers. The two of them are the fathers of the two religion.
What's different is the way the two religions perceive God thru the customs and practices and the whole notion of God's existence and actions.
In one hand, Christians acknowledge God in prayer but always associate him with the Trynity: Father- God, Son-Jesus Christ and Holly Spirit.
"In the name of The Father and of The Son and of The Holly Spirit!" 
Prayer typicaly is addressed to God thru an intermediary- the Son, Jesus Christ.
Furthermore, many of shoots of Christianity in fact declare Jesus as God in their prayers and some even confuse one with the other.

In Islam, all prayers are addressed to God and God only: "in the name of Allah...", "Allahu Akbar"- God is great, "Insh-Allah!" - thanks God or praise God!
There is no intermediary, no pit stop, nothing but a straight line to God.

Christians believe that Jesus is in fact the Son of God, the result of the miracle of virgin birth. That implies that God took shape and form and according to Genessis he could : "created in His own image..." But aside from that there is no testimony or proof that anybody ever encountered God in a physical form but a spiritual one.

Muslims, believe in Jesus but they put him in a second spot after Mohammed, the prophet of Allah.
Jesus was just like in the Bible, the son of Mary and Joseph but that's it! Other than that he just had a spiritual connection to God, some type of direct line of communication.
Muslims acknowledge the existence of God as a spirit that could never take shape or form. That is enough for them to dismiss the premise that Jesus is God's son.
In their view, how can a spirit, something that has no physical form or shape get a woman pregnant? Goes back to the fact that one should believe only what one can see, touch and feel. A spiritual REAL connection is reserved to a very small number of people, very few lucky ones that are the prophets. Only prophets have the privilege of a real connection to God. All others will meet/feel the presence of God when they ascend to Heaven and only if they lead a pious life to be granted passage to Heaven.

At the end of the day, like it or not, Christians and Muslims alike pray to the same and have the same God. They are connected to their roots, they have the same father, they share similar beliefs. How they see and approach God it is just as two siblings would see their parents: each in his/her own way! Nonetheless, the same parents.