djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 12:36:37 GMT -5
i don't think you are carrying this to it's logical conclusion, Virgil. do you REALLY believe that arming ourselves to the teeth would prevent this? we were armed to the teeth on September 11th. did it help? how would our little pea shooters keep planes from crashing into buildings? we might not trust the government, but that fact won't stop terrorism, or even slow it down. What part of "arming everybody to the teeth doesn't strike me as the most sensible way to keep people safe" is confusing you? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Moreover, you're missing the point. The push towards a more well-armed citizenry won't be to prevent suicide bombings or plane crashes. The aim will be to prevent systemic executions such as the massacre at the Bataclan. Suppose for sake of argument we ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. This is one case where I agree with gun control opponents that having a few armed concert-goers would have, with high likelihood, significantly reduced the body count. You can wave your hands and speculate that it would have just added to the carnage, but that's not a sound argument in this case. In some situations, I'd agree with you. Not this one. And before you start going nuts with the ALLCAPS: yes I realize it's illogical to ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. I'm just pointing out what people will be thinking when they flock to the gun stores en masse if gunmen ever perpetrate an attack on US soil. They'll be thinking they don't want to be the helpless, terrified French citizens waiting to be executed at the Bataclan. first of all, i don't "go nuts with ALLCAPS". i use them for emphasis. it is not screaming. it is not yelling. it is not hysteria. (or, occasionally, it is done for humor). this ad hominem of yours is getting very tiresome (accusing people of not having their wits about them). when i am too angry to type, i leave the discussion. period. therefore, if i am here, corresponding, i am calm. the only nuts in me are the ones between my legs and the ones i ate a few mins ago. so, what you are saying is that people will be even more scared and more armed. i agree. where we disagree is that it will prevent the systematic killings. unless you imagine that somehow people will be allowed to carry guns to sporting events and rock concerts in the future, which they won't. did i get the point?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 12:39:40 GMT -5
What part of "arming everybody to the teeth doesn't strike me as the most sensible way to keep people safe" is confusing you? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Moreover, you're missing the point. The push towards a more well-armed citizenry won't be to prevent suicide bombings or plane crashes. The aim will be to prevent systemic executions such as the massacre at the Bataclan. Suppose for sake of argument we ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. This is one case where I agree with gun control opponents that having a few armed concert-goers would have, with high likelihood, significantly reduced the body count. You can wave your hands and speculate that it would have just added to the carnage, but that's not a sound argument in this case. In some situations, I'd agree with you. Not this one. And before you start going nuts with the ALLCAPS: yes I realize it's illogical to ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. I'm just pointing out what people will be thinking when they flock to the gun stores en masse if gunmen ever perpetrate an attack on US soil. They'll be thinking they don't want to be the helpless, terrified French citizens waiting to be executed at the Bataclan. I see your point, and agree somewhat. But I think the terrorists we are dealing with are smart enough to anticipate this reaction. We always seem to be a step (or more) behind. The next time it won't be guns in a theater, or a hijacked plane, or a crockpot bomb -- it will be something we're not expecting and cannot defend against. If buying a gun makes Joe Schmoe feel safer, great -- but I don't think it will actually protect him from terrorists any more than the TSA does. this is precisely it. when terror is done at a cellular level, the number of plots and schemes are infinite. how about poisoning water supplies? blowing up power plants and dams? setting buildings on fire? there are literally thousands of things that can be done by thousands of people in thousands of locations at any time between now and the last breath of energy in the universe. we need to rethink this problem and the solution to it from the ground up. everything we are doing right now is making it worse.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 12:42:02 GMT -5
Virgil- if you can avoid the personal attacks, and stick to the topic, it will save us BOTH a lot of typing.
just sayin'.
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 17, 2015 18:38:17 GMT -5
The band's name is a play on words. They don't play heavy metal. Well, whatever they play, it's still a concert, with young people, drugs and booze. Wow, Judge people much? I have a super idea, let's move 100,000 Muslim men to Canada from Europe.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 17, 2015 18:57:11 GMT -5
A friend forwarded this video. It's frightening to watch. buzzpo.com/this-is-the-most-disturbing-muslim-refugee-video-you-will-ever-see/The first 3:20 is just a montage. You can watch it, but I recommend forwarding to 3:20 where the actual documentary starts. The topic is Europe's demographic nightmare, and the effects this refugee influx is having. If you're sensitive to the abuse of women, the video will be particularly poignant. Watch until at least 12:00.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 17, 2015 20:38:01 GMT -5
dj seems to be taking this argument hard. I imagine when deep down you know you are totally 300% on the wrong side of the argument, it hurts alot.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Nov 17, 2015 20:40:51 GMT -5
i don't think you are carrying this to it's logical conclusion, Virgil. do you REALLY believe that arming ourselves to the teeth would prevent this? we were armed to the teeth on September 11th. did it help? how would our little pea shooters keep planes from crashing into buildings? we might not trust the government, but that fact won't stop terrorism, or even slow it down. What part of "arming everybody to the teeth doesn't strike me as the most sensible way to keep people safe" is confusing you? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Moreover, you're missing the point. The push towards a more well-armed citizenry won't be to prevent suicide bombings or plane crashes. The aim will be to prevent systemic executions such as the massacre at the Bataclan. Suppose for sake of argument we ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. This is one case where I agree with gun control opponents that having a few armed concert-goers would have, with high likelihood, significantly reduced the body count. You can wave your hands and speculate that it would have just added to the carnage, but that's not a sound argument in this case. In some situations, I'd agree with you. Not this one. And before you start going nuts with the ALLCAPS: yes I realize it's illogical to ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. I'm just pointing out what people will be thinking when they flock to the gun stores en masse if gunmen ever perpetrate an attack on US soil. They'll be thinking they don't want to be the helpless, terrified French citizens waiting to be executed at the Bataclan. How can you possibly think armed concert goers could have made a difference? My first question of course is how they got in there in the first place- nobody in any venue in this country is going to be let in without dealing with security- so I assume they shot up the security on the way in. But if you allow guns in these places- football games, concerts, etc.- and mix that with the insane open carry laws in the USA- congratulations- you just allowed terrorists to openly carry their AR-15s and huge magazines directly to their targets- unless of course you only allow white Christian fans to carry weapons- and these days they are just as likely to shoot up the place. Stupid idea, will never happen, and the outcome would be the same either way. Gunshots go off- nobody knows who is shooting and who is defending- pure chaos. The police are going to shoot anyone with a gun on sight. I do agree one one point- our gun nuts go apeshit and buy guns when one of their own shoots up a school because they are afraid of gun control- if some Muslim shoots up a mall there will be lines around the block at the nearest gun store for months.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 21:09:09 GMT -5
dj seems to be taking this argument hard. I imagine when deep down you know you are totally 300% on the wrong side of the argument, it hurts alot. first of all, you can't be 300% wrong. your hyperbole doesn't improve your argument. secondly, wrong about what? wrong that most Syrians have nothing to do with terrorism? wrong that our response is similar to that of ebola? wrong that people are freaking out over basically nothing- in a fear induced void between what they know and what is real? no, sir. i am NOT wrong. i am 100% right about all of those things. and i am absolutely not taking it hard. i have never had a better time on this board.
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 17, 2015 21:11:13 GMT -5
dj, I cannot remember if it was this thread or another thread where you stated you would be happy to take in some Muslim refugees into your house.
Next you will probably tell me your wife would have no problem with it. How about the refugees? How would they accept your family?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 21:16:07 GMT -5
dj, I cannot remember if it was this thread or another thread where you stated you would be happy to take in some Muslim refugees into your house. Next you will probably tell me your wife would have no problem with it. How about the refugees? How would they accept your family? Q1: no. i said Syrian refugees. if you are going to mock me, at least get the details right. Q2: i just asked my wife. she has no problem with Syrian refugees living here. Q3: i presume that the Syrian refugees would be thankful to have a place to stay. any more stupid, attention grabbing attempts to ensnare me and make me look bad that you would like to snark my way? if not, i had a respectful question on the other thread that GEL asked, and i would like to attend to it.
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verrip1
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Post by verrip1 on Nov 17, 2015 21:42:43 GMT -5
dj, I cannot remember if it was this thread or another thread where you stated you would be happy to take in some Muslim refugees into your house. Next you will probably tell me your wife would have no problem with it. How about the refugees? How would they accept your family? VB. Inserting personality and real lives into a political argument is not cool. Really.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Nov 17, 2015 22:03:26 GMT -5
What part of "arming everybody to the teeth doesn't strike me as the most sensible way to keep people safe" is confusing you? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Moreover, you're missing the point. The push towards a more well-armed citizenry won't be to prevent suicide bombings or plane crashes. The aim will be to prevent systemic executions such as the massacre at the Bataclan. Suppose for sake of argument we ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. This is one case where I agree with gun control opponents that having a few armed concert-goers would have, with high likelihood, significantly reduced the body count. You can wave your hands and speculate that it would have just added to the carnage, but that's not a sound argument in this case. In some situations, I'd agree with you. Not this one. And before you start going nuts with the ALLCAPS: yes I realize it's illogical to ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. I'm just pointing out what people will be thinking when they flock to the gun stores en masse if gunmen ever perpetrate an attack on US soil. They'll be thinking they don't want to be the helpless, terrified French citizens waiting to be executed at the Bataclan. How can you possibly think armed concert goers could have made a difference? My first question of course is how they got in there in the first place- nobody in any venue in this country is going to be let in without dealing with security- so I assume they shot up the security on the way in.But if you allow guns in these places- football games, concerts, etc.- and mix that with the insane open carry laws in the USA- congratulations- you just allowed terrorists to openly carry their AR-15s and huge magazines directly to their targets- unless of course you only allow white Christian fans to carry weapons- and these days they are just as likely to shoot up the place. Stupid idea, will never happen, and the outcome would be the same either way. Gunshots go off- nobody knows who is shooting and who is defending- pure chaos. The police are going to shoot anyone with a gun on sight. I do agree one one point- our gun nuts go apeshit and buy guns when one of their own shoots up a school because they are afraid of gun control- if some Muslim shoots up a mall there will be lines around the block at the nearest gun store for months. Not all venues have security to enter. I go to the ballet in Seattle and have yet to go through security. The local theater also does not have a shred of security. Right now, the security is in major venues, like ball stadiums. ISIL is hitting what the US and others have feared since 9/11, what they call soft targets. These are places that do a lot of damage, and if there is any security, it is minimal. Just like the Boston Marathon. The US has a plethora of obvious targets, but having restaurants, small concert/theater venues, movie theaters, etc. targeted would be absolutely impossible to provide any sort of security. So what do you suggest? FWIW, SO conceal carries his gun into the ballet and theater when we go, and also to some restaurants (it depends upon whether or not we're sitting in the bar or the restaurant). He's also had a lot of training (about 100+ hours, at this point). Had we been in the theater, what would have been the disadvantage of firing back? The shooter was shooting anything that moved, so if someone could stop him, why not? Had the French police not stormed the place, there is no doubt in my mind that there would have been even more loss of life.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 17, 2015 22:56:33 GMT -5
Well, whatever they play, it's still a concert, with young people, drugs and booze. Wow, Judge people much? I have a super idea, let's move 100,000 Muslim men to Canada from Europe. Lol! Haven't been to a concert lately, have you? Take a gander at the band. The audience wasn't full of sober senior citizens in sensible shoes.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 23:02:26 GMT -5
Wow, Judge people much? I have a super idea, let's move 100,000 Muslim men to Canada from Europe. Lol! Haven't been to a concert lately, have you? Take a gander at the band. The audience wasn't full of sober senior citizens in sensible shoes.
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Post by Ombud on Nov 17, 2015 23:32:00 GMT -5
dj, I cannot remember if it was this thread or another thread where you stated you would be happy to take in some Muslim refugees into your house. Next you will probably tell me your wife would have no problem with it. How about the refugees? How would they accept your family? Another thread, but in his defense he didn't know that Daesh meant ISIS but without recognizing them as a nation:
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 17, 2015 23:54:05 GMT -5
Ombud:
i tried to reply to that post, but it is not letting me write below caption. "they" referred to Syrian refugees, in the other thread, not "Muslim refugees". i don't care what their religion is. they are welcome in my home.
you either believe in giving safe refuge to people from war torn countries, or you don't. if you believe in it, you say so.
i say so.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Nov 18, 2015 8:28:05 GMT -5
Ombud: i tried to reply to that post, but it is not letting me write below caption. "they" referred to Syrian refugees, in the other thread, not "Muslim refugees". i don't care what their religion is. they are welcome in my home. you either believe in giving safe refuge to people from war torn countries, or you don't. if you believe in it, you say so. i say so. I disagree with you, on the over all political solution to the refugee problem, but do defend your right to say and do it. Respect you for it too.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Nov 18, 2015 9:09:08 GMT -5
Ombud: i tried to reply to that post, but it is not letting me write below caption. "they" referred to Syrian refugees, in the other thread, not "Muslim refugees". i don't care what their religion is. they are welcome in my home. you either believe in giving safe refuge to people from war torn countries, or you don't. if you believe in it, you say so. i say so. Did you watch the video I posted? It's got footage of (literally) entire trains full of refugees chanting "Death to Germany! Allahu Akbar!" It's got rape, violence, and employment statistics that should make your blood run cold. It points out that many of the "Syrian" refugees aren't in fact from Syria. Officials have no idea who's who, no documentation is required, hence eager radicals from all over Africa and the Middle East are taking advantage. If you want to see what they do to the neighbourhoods and houses that take them in, there's a segment on that too.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 18, 2015 12:13:41 GMT -5
Ombud: i tried to reply to that post, but it is not letting me write below caption. "they" referred to Syrian refugees, in the other thread, not "Muslim refugees". i don't care what their religion is. they are welcome in my home. you either believe in giving safe refuge to people from war torn countries, or you don't. if you believe in it, you say so. i say so. Did you watch the video I posted? It's got footage of (literally) entire trains full of refugees chanting "Death to Germany! Allahu Akbar!" It's got rape, violence, and employment statistics that should make your blood run cold. It points out that many of the "Syrian" refugees aren't in fact from Syria. Officials have no idea who's who, no documentation is required, hence eager radicals from all over Africa and the Middle East are taking advantage. If you want to see what they do to the neighbourhoods and houses that take them in, there's a segment on that too. My favourite bit was a trainful of "refugees" chanting "We will make orphans of their children!" Warms the cockles of your heart, doesn't it?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 18, 2015 13:41:04 GMT -5
Ombud: i tried to reply to that post, but it is not letting me write below caption. "they" referred to Syrian refugees, in the other thread, not "Muslim refugees". i don't care what their religion is. they are welcome in my home. you either believe in giving safe refuge to people from war torn countries, or you don't. if you believe in it, you say so. i say so. Did you watch the video I posted? It's got footage of (literally) entire trains full of refugees chanting "Death to Germany! Allahu Akbar!" It's got rape, violence, and employment statistics that should make your blood run cold. It points out that many of the "Syrian" refugees aren't in fact from Syria. Officials have no idea who's who, no documentation is required, hence eager radicals from all over Africa and the Middle East are taking advantage. If you want to see what they do to the neighbourhoods and houses that take them in, there's a segment on that too. ok. i watched it. yeah, Germany has a serious problem. maybe Sweden, too. now i have a question for YOU: do you think there is ANY (as in, greater than 0%) chance of something similar happening in the US or Canada?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 13:44:48 GMT -5
What part of "arming everybody to the teeth doesn't strike me as the most sensible way to keep people safe" is confusing you? ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/sarcasm.png) Moreover, you're missing the point. The push towards a more well-armed citizenry won't be to prevent suicide bombings or plane crashes. The aim will be to prevent systemic executions such as the massacre at the Bataclan. Suppose for sake of argument we ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. This is one case where I agree with gun control opponents that having a few armed concert-goers would have, with high likelihood, significantly reduced the body count. You can wave your hands and speculate that it would have just added to the carnage, but that's not a sound argument in this case. In some situations, I'd agree with you. Not this one. And before you start going nuts with the ALLCAPS: yes I realize it's illogical to ignore all of the adverse effects of arming everyone to the teeth. I'm just pointing out what people will be thinking when they flock to the gun stores en masse if gunmen ever perpetrate an attack on US soil. They'll be thinking they don't want to be the helpless, terrified French citizens waiting to be executed at the Bataclan. How can you possibly think armed concert goers could have made a difference? My first question of course is how they got in there in the first place- nobody in any venue in this country is going to be let in without dealing with security- so I assume they shot up the security on the way in. But if you allow guns in these places- football games, concerts, etc.- and mix that with the insane open carry laws in the USA- congratulations- you just allowed terrorists to openly carry their AR-15s and huge magazines directly to their targets- unless of course you only allow white Christian fans to carry weapons- and these days they are just as likely to shoot up the place. Stupid idea, will never happen, and the outcome would be the same either way. Gunshots go off- nobody knows who is shooting and who is defending- pure chaos. The police are going to shoot anyone with a gun on sight. I do agree one one point- our gun nuts go apeshit and buy guns when one of their own shoots up a school because they are afraid of gun control- if some Muslim shoots up a mall there will be lines around the block at the nearest gun store for months. Do you have any source for the statement ("our gun nuts go ape shit and buy guns when [one of their own] shoot up a school because they're afraid of gun control"). I don't know of any mass shootings because of impending gun control, or is that statement just the usual "collective guilt' approach to gun control. I've seen that approach before, although somewhat dated, in the liberal major media. Do you have a credible link that shows mass killings are perpetrated by gunmen afraid of gun control ? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 13:53:23 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Nov 18, 2015 13:57:48 GMT -5
Did you watch the video I posted? It's got footage of (literally) entire trains full of refugees chanting "Death to Germany! Allahu Akbar!" It's got rape, violence, and employment statistics that should make your blood run cold. It points out that many of the "Syrian" refugees aren't in fact from Syria. Officials have no idea who's who, no documentation is required, hence eager radicals from all over Africa and the Middle East are taking advantage. If you want to see what they do to the neighbourhoods and houses that take them in, there's a segment on that too. ok. i watched it. yeah, Germany has a serious problem. maybe Sweden, too. now i have a question for YOU: do you think there is ANY (as in, greater than 0%) chance of something similar happening in the US or Canada? It's already happening.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Nov 18, 2015 14:00:06 GMT -5
ok. i watched it. yeah, Germany has a serious problem. maybe Sweden, too. now i have a question for YOU: do you think there is ANY (as in, greater than 0%) chance of something similar happening in the US or Canada? It's already happening. what are you calling "it"?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 18, 2015 14:04:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 14:15:25 GMT -5
I took a collective guilt summation because of the phrase "one of their own". Being a law abiding gun owner, I take offense at being lumped together with a criminal (s). No different than you being referenced as a killer because a person drove their car into crowd and killed people and you also drive. I'm aware of possible gun control measures as a driver of weapon sales.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 14:23:59 GMT -5
Did you watch the video I posted? It's got footage of (literally) entire trains full of refugees chanting "Death to Germany! Allahu Akbar!" It's got rape, violence, and employment statistics that should make your blood run cold. It points out that many of the "Syrian" refugees aren't in fact from Syria. Officials have no idea who's who, no documentation is required, hence eager radicals from all over Africa and the Middle East are taking advantage. If you want to see what they do to the neighbourhoods and houses that take them in, there's a segment on that too. ok. i watched it. yeah, Germany has a serious problem. maybe Sweden, too. now i have a question for YOU: do you think there is ANY (as in, greater than 0%) chance of something similar happening in the US or Canada? I believe it can, and it will probably have a better chance of happening in one of our "no weapons allowed" zones. See the quote from #269 as how it happens with a disarmed populace. No one really believed a 9-11 type attack was going to happen either.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Nov 18, 2015 14:29:37 GMT -5
I took a collective guilt summation because of the phrase "one of their own". Being a law abiding gun owner, I take offense at being lumped together with a criminal (s). No different than you being referenced as a killer because a person drove their car into crowd and killed people and you also drive. I'm aware of possible gun control measures as a driver of weapon sales. I was seeing "gun nuts" as a subset of "gun owners". I know many gun owners who do not base gun purchases on the political climate. I have no problem with calling those who do "gun nuts". I would encourage people to purchase the guns that they need for hunting or protection and relax.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2015 14:39:18 GMT -5
I took a collective guilt summation because of the phrase "one of their own". Being a law abiding gun owner, I take offense at being lumped together with a criminal (s). No different than you being referenced as a killer because a person drove their car into crowd and killed people and you also drive. I'm aware of possible gun control measures as a driver of weapon sales. I was seeing "gun nuts" as a subset of "gun owners". I know many gun owners who do not base gun purchases on the political climate. I have no problem with calling those who do "gun nuts". I would encourage people to purchase the guns that they need for hunting or protection and relax. I agree with those reasons for purchase as they are my own. I can also see that a possible restriction can drive a sale because they want a certain type of weapon that might be outlawed sooner than later. I can also see that gun companies will use that fear of restriction as a marketing approach to more sales.
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midjd
Administrator
Your Money Admin
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 14:09:23 GMT -5
Posts: 17,719
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Post by midjd on Nov 18, 2015 14:40:33 GMT -5
I took a collective guilt summation because of the phrase "one of their own". Being a law abiding gun owner, I take offense at being lumped together with a criminal (s). No different than you being referenced as a killer because a person drove their car into crowd and killed people and you also drive. I'm aware of possible gun control measures as a driver of weapon sales. You take offense at being lumped in with criminals. Totally understandable. I am guessing most moderate Muslims feel the same way.
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