movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Oct 16, 2015 11:33:21 GMT -5
It's the same with being poor. I didn't feel poor growing up but I have a friend who grew up in almost identical circumstances and when she talks about her childhood she makes it out like she was very deprived, so poor, etc. This is essentially because her parents would not buy her all the Gap clothing she wanted. Also we didn't go on vacations, have our own cars, etc, etc but we always had enough food, heat and electricity. My brother and I grew up in the same house and he feels like we grew up poor. I feel like we grew up middle class. We took a vacation every year. It was not a luxurious vacation by any stretch. We would either go to the mountains or the beach. We went to Disney once, which was our BIG vacation. We ate out about twice a month (usually on a Friday or Saturday night). There were definitely things we wanted but didn't get. Our parents did a good job of explaining the reasons behind the decisions that were made. They even sat down and talked about the finances: how much goes to shelter, food, healthcare, etc. Apparently his mind set and my mind set about how we grew up are completely different. How we treat money now is completely different. He says he was deprived of enough things growing up and is not going to do it now. He appears to be resentful of things he didn't have growing up. He has very little savings. As an adult I feel grateful for the way I grew up because I learned that you have to make choices when it come to money. Most people can't have it all.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Oct 16, 2015 11:39:53 GMT -5
It's the same with being poor. I didn't feel poor growing up but I have a friend who grew up in almost identical circumstances and when she talks about her childhood she makes it out like she was very deprived, so poor, etc. This is essentially because her parents would not buy her all the Gap clothing she wanted. Also we didn't go on vacations, have our own cars, etc, etc but we always had enough food, heat and electricity. My brother and I grew up in the same house and he feels like we grew up poor. I feel like we grew up middle class. We took a vacation every year. It was not a luxurious vacation by any stretch. We would either go to the mountains or the beach. We went to Disney once, which was our BIG vacation. We ate out about twice a month (usually on a Friday or Saturday night). There were definitely things we wanted but didn't get. Our parents did a good job of explaining the reasons behind the decisions that were made. They even sat down and talked about the finances: how much goes to shelter, food, healthcare, etc. Apparently his mind set and my mind set about how we grew up are completely different. How we treat money now is completely different. He says he was deprived of enough things growing up and is not going to do it now. He appears to be resentful of things he didn't have growing up. He has very little savings. As an adult I feel grateful for the way I grew up because I learned that you have to make choices when it come to money. Most people can't have it all. I don't know, everyone in my immediate neighborhood was in a similar position, it wasn't like there were McMansions down the street so it seems kind of odd to me how as adults two people can have such different views of what happened but maybe it really isn't as strange as I think.
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jeffreymo
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Post by jeffreymo on Oct 16, 2015 11:53:50 GMT -5
I'd say for my area:
Single no dependents $200+ is out of the middle class
Family of 4 or 5 - $300-350 is outside middle class
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Oct 16, 2015 13:42:51 GMT -5
We are right around 95k combined and I'd say we are in the middle of the middle class. But if we didn't have student loans, daycare, etc., we would be rolling in it!
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violagirl
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Post by violagirl on Oct 16, 2015 15:18:53 GMT -5
Middle class is a combination of income and attitude.
I looked at stats for my area. They have median household income broken down by family types which I think is more informative. Ex. over 65 retired couple may be upper middle class, but now they are retired so income coming in isn't quite as much as 2 earners in their 40s.
So median income of 2 earner married couple (with or without children) in my area seems to range from 80,000 - 108,000.
The problem is you can take two median wage earners making 60k and put them together and suddenly they don't become upper middle class in attitude just because they live in the same household. Yes they have more money but the way they spend the money and think about the world is still middle class.
People shy away from the term "upper" because to most people it implies snobbery and most people who have come from a middle class background will stay "middle class" in mentality even if they win the lottery.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Oct 16, 2015 15:29:05 GMT -5
A lot of the high income GOES to providing for the HCOL increases though.
My infant daycare in the midwest was $250/week.
in Seattle, it's twice that.
My house costs twice as much.
My property taxes are twice as much.
Yes I chose to live here, but income alone doesn't reflect it all - I only got a 35% raise to come here. Not 50% or 100%. Qualifying it with a location is really important. Hell, min wage here is $15/hr, highest in the country. That should speak for something.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 16, 2015 15:31:17 GMT -5
At what income does one lose the right to call themselves middle class? Talking to my 2 pharmacists this weekend , married to other pharmacists and they considered themselves middle class. My pharmacists make each more than my wife and I combined. Not hating but when you are pulling 250k+ a year combined, I don't think of you as middle class. I think : 150k-200k for LCOLA 250k-300k for HCOLA *After some reading I changed my numbers! I agree, it very much makes a difference what part of the country you are living in. So, monetarily a "middle class" family can be anywhere from 50k to 250k. But equally important, I have some artist friends who are just getting by monetarily, but they feel rich, and in a fundamental way they are. It is all very subjective and what is important to you. It is not all about dollars...but yeah, you should be able to house, clothes and feed your family, own some real estate, take at least one decent vacation a year and indulge one passion and one bad habit, and not worry about tomorrow. Something like that. But I may have missed something?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 20:58:09 GMT -5
I think the words "middle class" are too political to get a very good definition. If above middle class is rich, you have such a huge area. If you define one million a year as rich and not middle then what is ten million a year or fifty million a year? I think the words are close to meaningless because so many people define them so differently.
I know you asked about "middle class" and not "rich", but to many if you are not poor you are one of those two classes.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Oct 17, 2015 4:40:14 GMT -5
It depends on the number of people and stage of life too and assets. A young family say with 2 kids in daycare with 200K of student loans needs a high income to get into middle class, then saving for college for the kids and getting a house they will struggle. I am single so need much less household income, no student loans, no kids to save for college for, house half paid off, no other debts. If I make even 70K I am living richly. A couple making 70-80K each may be poor or rich depending on expenses.
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happytraveler
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Post by happytraveler on Oct 17, 2015 6:53:13 GMT -5
So we live in a very HCOL area on the east coast. It just myself and my wife now, as the kids are out of the house. Our gross income is in excess of $250k, we have a very large mortgage, and live in a very nice home. We contribute the maximum to our 401k's, (including over 50 catch up), max out an HSA, and do some pretty significant after tax savings, and we feel like we still have far more disposable income than we need. We travel where we want (we may not be world travelers, but we go where want, when we want), we eat out when feel like it, etc. In short I feel like we are certainly financially way above "middle class".....probably rich. I can't imagine a family with a household income of $250k thinking they are middle class regardless of where they live, particularly if they have an income of that level over the course of multiple/many years.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Oct 17, 2015 7:41:20 GMT -5
So we live in a very HCOL area on the east coast. It just myself and my wife now, as the kids are out of the house. Our gross income is in excess of $250k, we have a very large mortgage, and live in a very nice home. We contribute the maximum to our 401k's, (including over 50 catch up), max out an HSA, and do some pretty significant after tax savings, and we feel like we still have far more disposable income than we need. We travel where we want (we may not be world travelers, but we go where want, when we want), we eat out when feel like it, etc. In short I feel like we are certainly financially way above "middle class".....probably rich. I can't imagine a family with a household income of $250k thinking they are middle class regardless of where they live, particularly if they have an income of that level over the course of multiple/many years. And all of this happened while you had kids, too? Because I know with kids, I can do whatever I want whenever I want.
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happytraveler
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Post by happytraveler on Oct 17, 2015 7:53:58 GMT -5
So we live in a very HCOL area on the east coast. It just myself and my wife now, as the kids are out of the house. Our gross income is in excess of $250k, we have a very large mortgage, and live in a very nice home. We contribute the maximum to our 401k's, (including over 50 catch up), max out an HSA, and do some pretty significant after tax savings, and we feel like we still have far more disposable income than we need. We travel where we want (we may not be world travelers, but we go where want, when we want), we eat out when feel like it, etc. In short I feel like we are certainly financially way above "middle class".....probably rich. I can't imagine a family with a household income of $250k thinking they are middle class regardless of where they live, particularly if they have an income of that level over the course of multiple/many years. And all of this happened while you had kids, too? Because I know with kids, I can do whatever I want whenever I want. So while the kids were home we lived in lower cost area and made quite a bit less when they were born (of course that was 20+ years ago) and our income (like most young couples) grew over time, I am guessing but I would say when the kids were born we were making $130k and when they left, we were making $220k. Even then I never felt like we had a shortage of money...we always maxed out our 401ks, and even had a 15 year mortgage. We have always lived a very nice life style, but we did not fly first class, stay at the Four Seasons, etc, but we never felt like we lacked for anything or had to deprive ourselves. We absolutely had the benefit or luck of never having a layoff, disability, etc. so our income was always steady...that clearly was a big factor. So yes, even with kids (both of whom went to private colleges and graduated with no debt), I think you can live large on $250k per year.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 17, 2015 9:58:15 GMT -5
Maybe they should add a category called working rich (as opposed to idle rich).
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svwashout
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Post by svwashout on Oct 17, 2015 10:34:22 GMT -5
I think you can be middle class at any level of income. To me it's about standard of living being near the median. Some may have very high incomes and live below their means, while others may have little or no cash income but have things provided so they live as well as others. A few years ago my mother was looking into senior housing in central downtown and I drove her to a place suggested by a yoga classmate. Very nice building and location, maybe a bit congested for my taste, but really convenient for everything without driving. Turned out that place was 'low income housing' where rent is 1/3 of your income whatever that may be. I happened to glance at a sheet on the manager's desk and was surprised to see rents below $100/mon on some of the units. For my mother rent there would have been higher than market, and I doubt they would even put her on the wait list. Also what should be the reference sample for this kind of comparison? If we go back to income, an investment banker living in Greenwich may be at the median on a seven figure pay package, relative to his zip code. Most here compare against Americans, although we now realize that things are different on the coasts. On a world basis most here would be 1%-ers (by income) according to this-- www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.aspSo on a world income basis few here could claim to be 'middle class'.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Oct 18, 2015 10:22:27 GMT -5
I thought this was interesting from the Slate article: I've never made over 60k a yr yet by the 2nd quote I'm in the top 5%. Go figure
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