Your opinion... Middle Class - Income!

[TheHaitian]

At what income does one lose the right to call themselves middle class?

Talking to my 2 pharmacists this weekend , married to other pharmacists and they considered themselves middle class. My pharmacists make each more than my wife and I combined.

Not hating but when you are pulling 250k+ a year combined, I don't think of you as middle class.

I think :

150k-200k for LCOLA
250k-300k for HCOLA

*After some reading I changed my numbers!

[midjd]

I would probably double those numbers. The median HH income in my LCOLA city is more than $65K, so I don't think a family making less than twice that is upper class. By that standard DH and I would be close to upper class in a HCOLA, and that is just crazy talk.

ETA - I also don't think income has much to do with class ranking, since it is much more prone to fluctuation. If someone is single and earns $250K, then loses their job, are they upper class one day and poor the next?

I would use assets as a measure and vary it based on age. 

$1MM net worth under 30;
$3MM net worth under 40; 
$5MM net worth under 50;

etc. 

[souldoubt]

I don't think income is the end all be all of defining where someone falls and as midjd mentioned NW is a better indicator especially the older you get.  I know friends who made over 150K between them but didn't have a pot to piss in so to speak and are generally one missed check away from being screwed.  150K household income in my area isn't going to make you rich and if you have a few kids you're middle class 95% of the time.        

[movingforward]

In my area I consider 150K - 250K to be upper middle class.  Over 250K I would consider upper class.  Most of my board members make around 250K - 300K.  Most have vacation homes, buy expensive clothing and drive luxury vehicles.  When you can drop 6K on a purse you are not middle class in my book.  I live in a MCOLA so HCOLA is a whole different ball of wax.

[quince]

Eh, I'm fine with people calling themselves middle class. If you're making over 100k though, at least call yourself upper-middle, maybe?  Otherwise, you're kind of implying median income/average Joe, and that's kind of BS.

My husband's father goes on and on about how hard it is to be middle class.   On a whim bought a house to renovate, and give to offspring/renovate/sell whatever, owns 5+ vehicles, and bought a company in the past year or so.

Yep. So middle class of him.

No one is going to look at my family's lifestyle and say upper class, but we've got plenty, and don't need to worry about money at this point. Our circumstances are not average and not something most people can relate to.  We were saving more when we were in a "middle class" income range, but we're not doing poorly, even with reduced savings.

[HoneyBBQ]

Oh God, I'm going to get flamed but whatever. There are so many engineers and googlites and amazonians making good livings here it really drives it up:

In Seattle proper: Middle class ~150-200k household

Mid-Upper~200-400k

Upper~ 400k +


Don't forget, in Seattle proper, a 2 bedroom 1 bath house that doesn't need a complete restoration starts at 5-600k.

[Tiny]

Oct 15, 2015 15:10:38 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

At what income does one lose the right to call themselves middle class?
 
I think :

100k for LCOLA
150k for HCOLA

I think when your household income is 4 times or more the median income for your immediate area - you have hit or surpassed the upper limit of the local 'middle class' income.

So, if the median household income in your city 50K and your household income is 200K plus you are moving out of the local "middle class".

I think looking at median household income is a good measure. 200K goes a lot further in an area where median income is 50K (or even 75K) than in an area where the median income is more than 75K.

[TheHaitian]

Ok using the median household income

MA - $66,866
USA - $53,046

So you are saying that above middle class would be for:

MA - 267,464
USA - 212,184

I can get behind that....

[Deleted]

Oct 15, 2015 15:10:38 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

At what income does one lose the right to call themselves middle class?

Talking to my 2 pharmacists this weekend , married to other pharmacists and they considered themselves middle class. My pharmacists make each more than my wife and I combined.

Not hating but when you are pulling 250k+ a year combined, I don't think of you as middle class.

I think :

100k for LCOLA
150k for HCOLA

Those incomes seem way too low to be upper class, probably upper middle, especially if you have a couple of kids.  Taxes, housing, child care.  Money will go pretty quick.  We make over those amounts and we don't take big vacations, belong to a country club, have new electronics, or drive cars that cost more 20K.  Even with those habits, we have to plan where our money goes, because we don't have a lot of money left after paying the bills and saving for retirement and DD's college. 

[marvholly]

And I am at the opposite end of the spectrum. I live in an $$ burb of a moderatly HCOL city (Chicago).  My TOTAL income (soc + a VERY small pension (120/mon) and interest) totals my income at UNDER 35k.   That is just over half the avg income in my area. 

I still consider myself middle class. I have a house, a decent car under 10 y/o bought new, go out to eat sometimes (hello Groupon), and try to vacation or staycation every year.  I pay all my bills and have no mortgage or credit card debt.  I could weather a pretty serious medical issue without declaring bankruptcy.

what more do I need?  Want is something else.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Oct 15, 2015 16:26:50 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Ok using the median household income

MA - $66,866
USA - $53,046

So you are saying that above middle class would be for:

MA - 267,464
USA - 212,184

I can get behind that....

Massachusetts is a poor example.  In one small state, there are super, even obnoxiously, wealthy areas and very, very poor areas.  I don't believe the median income in the Greater Boston area is, or can be, $66,866.  At least not if you want to buy a home, and homeownership to me means middle class.  

[973beachbum]

GRG I believe those numbers.  Even here in NJ where the home prices are high there are lots of people, including us at one time, who would have loved to make the median income.  We still lived in the land of the million dollar vacation home.  I actually think the high income people skew the numbers more than the reverse.  There are probably lots of people who make very little but a person making a really large amount can move the average more than one low income person could. 

I grew up thinking of middle class as a state of being stable more than an income limit.  The middle class could do things like buy home and plan to retire not because of how high their income was but because of how stable it was.  They could trust that their employer would keep them employed and give them a pension ect. 

IMO people who make $250K need to budget to be able to live in their area just as much as a person who makes $25K.  Just because they live there doesn't mean they have a right to buy the home that others bought. 

IMO most high income people who complain that they are really middle class have a spending problem not in income one.

[Deleted]

Heck, I thought DS and his wife were middle class- they live in Des Moines and DS makes $60K/year. DDIL is a SAHM to their one child (hoping for at least one more). They own a small house (3 BR, 2 baths), built in the 1920s with some nice woodwork, in a university area. One car is DS' beater that he drives to work; the other is a Nissan SUV DDIL bought at the Nissan dealership where she worked before DGD was born.  He has no student loans; she has a small one from a 2-year business degree that they may have paid off by now.  The SUV has a car payment but the interest rate is 2% so they're in no hurry to pay it off.

Most of DGD's clothes come from a thrift store and she always looks adorable.  Because the house is small, she doesn't have acres of toys but she DOES have a lot of books!  No TV.  DS and DDIL have mobile phones but not smartphones.  They're saving money.

So are they lower class?

[TheHaitian]

Oct 16, 2015 8:40:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Heck, I thought DS and his wife were middle class- they live in Des Moines and DS makes $60K/year. DDIL is a SAHM to their one child (hoping for at least one more). They own a small house (3 BR, 2 baths), built in the 1920s with some nice woodwork, in a university area. One car is DS' beater that he drives to work; the other is a Nissan SUV DDIL bought at the Nissan dealership where she worked before DGD was born.  He has no student loans; she has a small one from a 2-year business degree that they may have paid off by now.  The SUV has a car payment but the interest rate is 2% so they're in no hurry to pay it off.

Most of DGD's clothes come from a thrift store and she always looks adorable.  Because the house is small, she doesn't have acres of toys but she DOES have a lot of books!  No TV.  DS and DDIL have mobile phones but not smartphones.  They're saving money.

So are they lower class?

I think they are the definition of middle class.

My pharmacist that is married to another pharmacist with a bigger title/pay is not middle class.

[yogiii]

Oct 16, 2015 8:40:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Heck, I thought DS and his wife were middle class- they live in Des Moines and DS makes $60K/year. DDIL is a SAHM to their one child (hoping for at least one more). They own a small house (3 BR, 2 baths), built in the 1920s with some nice woodwork, in a university area. One car is DS' beater that he drives to work; the other is a Nissan SUV DDIL bought at the Nissan dealership where she worked before DGD was born.  He has no student loans; she has a small one from a 2-year business degree that they may have paid off by now.  The SUV has a car payment but the interest rate is 2% so they're in no hurry to pay it off.

Most of DGD's clothes come from a thrift store and she always looks adorable.  Because the house is small, she doesn't have acres of toys but she DOES have a lot of books!  No TV.  DS and DDIL have mobile phones but not smartphones.  They're saving money.

So are they lower class?

3BR/2 baths is not a small house!

[yogiii]

We're probably on the higher end of middle class but live like we're on the low end.  Still, middle class either way!

ETA - We can still contribute to Roths the regular way.  That's another benchmark for middle class definition that would line up with TheHaitian's numbers.  If you can't contribute to a Roth you are over 193k or whatever it is this year.

[billisonboard]

Oct 15, 2015 15:10:38 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

At what income does one lose the right to call themselves middle class?

...

You're in 'merica. You gots the right to call yourself middle class no matter how much or little money you makes.

[resolution]

If we went strictly by income and not assets, I would probably say the middle 60% household income would be middle class, with 20% at the top and the bottom being outside the middle class. That would be $20k to $100k. 

If we wanted to go with the middle 80% and just exclude 10% off of each end, that would put the range from $15k to $140K.


If we went by assets I would say ability to purchase a home, access to stable jobs, and access to higher education, and ability to save for retirement (although many will choose not to do so).


theglitteringeye.com/u-s-income-distributiona-chart-to-contemplate/

[gooddecisions]

Oct 16, 2015 10:02:08 GMT -5 yogiii said:

Oct 16, 2015 8:40:40 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Heck, I thought DS and his wife were middle class- they live in Des Moines and DS makes $60K/year. DDIL is a SAHM to their one child (hoping for at least one more). They own a small house (3 BR, 2 baths), built in the 1920s with some nice woodwork, in a university area. One car is DS' beater that he drives to work; the other is a Nissan SUV DDIL bought at the Nissan dealership where she worked before DGD was born.  He has no student loans; she has a small one from a 2-year business degree that they may have paid off by now.  The SUV has a car payment but the interest rate is 2% so they're in no hurry to pay it off.

Most of DGD's clothes come from a thrift store and she always looks adorable.  Because the house is small, she doesn't have acres of toys but she DOES have a lot of books!  No TV.  DS and DDIL have mobile phones but not smartphones.  They're saving money.

So are they lower class?

3BR/2 baths is not a small house!

I don't know if I agree with that. There are lots of tiny older single floor 1000 sf houses where I grew up. No basements and no attics. My grandma lived in one for 60 years. She died a couple of years ago and it sold for $65K. I grew up in one, except there was only 1 bathroom. It's fine for a single person, but can get pretty cramped for a family.

[yogiii]

Until I was 10 we lived in a small 2 bedroom apartment.  So when we moved into a 1100sqft 3 bedroom 2 bath, it felt like a mansion!  Relative I guess.

[billisonboard]

[Ombud]

Oct 15, 2015 16:26:50 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Ok using the median household income

MA - $66,866
USA - $53,046

So you are saying that above middle class would be for:

MA - 267,464
USA - 212,184

I can get behind that....

Middle class = median income. If you're over that, accept the fact that although you don't feel well off, you're either upper middle (2× median income) or lower upper income.

[grumpyhermit]

As long as you are going to let people define middle class by their "feelings" the term is pretty much useless.

I am above the median for the US (though not by much). I am may even be above the median for my area (MCOLA). I can't afford a house without pretty much foregoing retirement savings. I drive a ten year old car. I "feel" poor most of the time. I mean hey, I can't afford a house and a new car so I must be right? Realistically I am NOT poor.

My brother lives about 20 miles outside a HCOLA major-metro. He "feels" like they struggle. He has a house, 2 kids, and two new cars. I don't know his actual household income, but I would put it at the low 200s between him and his wife. He contends that to live an "average" middle class life, you need to make around 400k a year. According to some studies that would put you in the top 1% of earners. That's not middle class.

Lifestyle creep is a bitch, but that doesn't mean that someone making 250k a year is "middle class".

Who Gets to Be “Rich”? - Slate

[Tiny]

Oct 15, 2015 16:26:50 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Ok using the median household income

MA - $66,866
USA - $53,046

So you are saying that above middle class would be for:

MA - 267,464
USA - 212,184

I can get behind that....

Yes, but I'm also thinking that there's not a clear line demarcation between middle class and upper class.

So someone in MA with a gross income of 270,000 isn't automatically going to be able to afford the same stuff that someone with gross income of 350K does.    If the 270K family wants their money to go further - they need to live in the more modest area - rather than the enclave with the 350K and up households.  

The issue is that there's always more, bigger, price-ier stuff/lifestyle that people with more money than you (the generic you) can have.     If you are forever aspiring to have that more, bigger, price-ier stuff you won't ever be 'happy' - even when you achieve a new level... because someone WILL have more...    and if you do reach the point of getting into some 'inner circle' of really rich people - you'll just get into a competition with them.   

I guess it all comes down to deciding 'what is good enough' and then being content with that.

 

[Tiny]

Oct 15, 2015 16:34:35 GMT -5 pooks said:

Oct 15, 2015 15:10:38 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

At what income does one lose the right to call themselves middle class?

Talking to my 2 pharmacists this weekend , married to other pharmacists and they considered themselves middle class. My pharmacists make each more than my wife and I combined.

Not hating but when you are pulling 250k+ a year combined, I don't think of you as middle class.

I think :

100k for LCOLA
150k for HCOLA

Those incomes seem way too low to be upper class, probably upper middle, especially if you have a couple of kids.  Taxes, housing, child care.  Money will go pretty quick.  We make over those amounts and we don't take big vacations, belong to a country club, have new electronics, or drive cars that cost more 20K.  Even with those habits, we have to plan where our money goes, because we don't have a lot of money left after paying the bills and saving for retirement and DD's college. 

This makes me wonder:  what SHOULD middle class people be able to afford?    Should they be able to fully fund their retirement so they can retire at 55 on their savings alone, fully fund their kids college funds (no need for loans or scholarships), be able to let their kid do any and every activity they want while in school?  be able to pay for the best private schools and tutors?  And maybe take a short family vacation every year (that involves airfare, attraction expenses, etc)?

[grumpyhermit]

Oct 16, 2015 10:50:23 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Oct 15, 2015 16:26:50 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Ok using the median household income

MA - $66,866
USA - $53,046

So you are saying that above middle class would be for:

MA - 267,464
USA - 212,184

I can get behind that....

Yes, but I'm also thinking that there's not a clear line demarcation between middle class and upper class.

So someone in MA with a gross income of 270,000 isn't automatically going to be able to afford the same stuff that someone with gross income of 350K does.    If the 270K family wants their money to go further - they need to live in the more modest area - rather than the enclave with the 350K and up households.  

The issue is that there's always more, bigger, price-ier stuff/lifestyle that people with more money than you (the generic you) can have.     If you are forever aspiring to have that more, bigger, price-ier stuff you won't ever be 'happy' - even when you achieve a new level... because someone WILL have more...    and if you do reach the point of getting into some 'inner circle' of really rich people - you'll just get into a competition with them.   

I guess it all comes down to deciding 'what is good enough' and then being content with that.

 

Exactly. I look at my brother and go "Please, you aren't struggling, you have just chosen certain things that are expensive." Meanwhile he is looking to his BIL, who just bought a 1 million dollar house in the Chicago burbs, works as in investment banker, has a SAHW, two kids, and a maid thinking "Damn, I am really struggling." And of course his BIL is looking to his Chicago friends who are trust fund babies and thinking how much further he has to go to really "make it". After all if you have to work for your money you can't REALLY be rich.

[Lizard Queen]

Oct 16, 2015 10:45:35 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

As long as you are going to let people define middle class by their "feelings" the term is pretty much useless.

I am above the median for the US (though not by much). I am may even be above the median for my area (MCOLA). I can't afford a house without pretty much foregoing retirement savings. I drive a ten year old car. I "feel" poor most of the time. I mean hey, I can't afford a house and a new car so I must be right? Realistically I am NOT poor.

My brother lives about 20 miles outside a HCOLA major-metro. He "feels" like they struggle. He has a house, 2 kids, and two new cars. I don't know his actual household income, but I would put it at the low 200s between him and his wife. He contends that to live an "average" middle class life, you need to make around 400k a year. According to some studies that would put you in the top 1% of earners. That's not middle class.

Lifestyle creep is a bitch, but that doesn't mean that someone making 250k a year is "middle class".

Who Gets to Be “Rich”? - Slate

. It's like people want to exclude themselves from the upper class if they're not in the upper 2% or something.  Puh-leeze.  It does become a meaningless definition then.

[yogiii]

It's the same with being poor.  I didn't feel poor growing up but I have a friend who grew up in almost identical circumstances and when she talks about her childhood she makes it out like she was very deprived, so poor, etc.  This is essentially because her parents would not buy her all the Gap clothing she wanted.  Also we didn't go on vacations, have our own cars, etc, etc but we always had enough food, heat and electricity.

[shelby]

Oct 15, 2015 16:00:40 GMT -5 quince said:

Eh, I'm fine with people calling themselves middle class. If you're making over 100k though, at least call yourself upper-middle, maybe?  Otherwise, you're kind of implying median income/average Joe, and that's kind of BS.

Poo we are around 100k HH and nowhere near upper middle, I would say barely middle middle

[Ombud]

Oct 16, 2015 10:45:35 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

As long as you are going to let people define middle class by their "feelings" the term is pretty much useless.

And maybe that's the real issue? Mental image not financial or paycheck? In that case, I'm upper class with middle class income