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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 15:58:58 GMT -5
Oh wait, it is not a gang initiation it is a policeman killing someone for flashing his lights to let the officer know he was bright lighting oncoming traffic. link Just one more example of a government official thinking he has the right to do whatever he wants and the public better just fall in line.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 14, 2015 16:19:52 GMT -5
He wasn't shot for flashing his lights. He was pulled over for flashing his lights He was shot because he was a complete idiot and refused to follow any sort of direction whatsoever. He became argumentative and combative. That's why he was shot. To imply otherwise is not honest.
Should he have been stopped in the first place? I don't know. It is perfectly legal for an officer to stop a vehicle that flashes it's lights (at least here - other jurisdictions vary). People do that to warn of law enforcement in the area. If the driver says that he did not flash his lights in an attempt to warn other drivers, it is the officer's responsibility to make sure that the vehicle's lights are working correctly. If it was more than that, that's something to take to the courts. You provide your license and whatever else the officer asks for. If you get a ticket, you go into court and you fight it there. It's pretty damn simple and nobody has to die over it.
The kid was shot because he was an obnoxious stupid kid who thought he knew it all and just had to be the tough guy. Had he done as the officer ordered, he would have been on his way with or without a ticket he could protest if he felt he was in the right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 16:25:55 GMT -5
Whether he was shot because he flashed his lights or he was shot for the reason you say, "because he was a complete idiot", he is still dead for no good reason.
BOOO!! on if he had just done what he was told to do by the cop, he wouldn't have been shot.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Oct 14, 2015 16:30:26 GMT -5
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 14, 2015 16:31:58 GMT -5
While much of what GEL states is true, I wish to add a little to it.
The first officer had an option to not push the issue. He had a second officer on the way. He easily could have waited for the second officer to get there and deal with the kid. The new on the scene officer could have deescalated the situation by playing "good cop". This did not have to end in a dead kid and the police were the adults in the situation. I consider the officer at fault.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 14, 2015 17:10:10 GMT -5
Very good video. A couple of times the narrator got a little melodramatic but well worth the watch.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2015 17:20:56 GMT -5
Shit, I flash my lights to warn cars about cops all the time. Good to know I can get in trouble for it. Huh?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 14, 2015 17:26:54 GMT -5
Shit, I flash my lights to warn cars about cops all the time. Good to know I can get in trouble for it. Huh? This situation has nothing to do with that.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Oct 14, 2015 17:34:26 GMT -5
This happened less than twenty miles from where I live. If I miss an exit on the expressway, or it is closed, I'm in the jurisdiction that these officers patrol before it is possible to legally turn around.
I'm just a little terrified, and angry.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 14, 2015 17:42:34 GMT -5
Shit, I flash my lights to warn cars about cops all the time. Good to know I can get in trouble for it. Huh? This situation has nothing to do with that. I hope not.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 14, 2015 17:46:10 GMT -5
This situation has nothing to do with that. I hope not. A friendly warning: Just because this kid wasn't killed for warning people of a policeman's presence doesn't mean that you won't be killed for doing it.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 14, 2015 21:49:13 GMT -5
Whether he was shot because he flashed his lights or he was shot for the reason you say, "because he was a complete idiot", he is still dead for no good reason. BOOO!! on if he had just done what he was told to do by the cop, he wouldn't have been shot.
I agree he's dead for no good reason. He's dead for awful reasons - ones he brought on himself. I refuse to excuse people for their bad behavior. You act like an idiot - there might be some serious consequences. That's the way it is. That doesn't mean I think death should be the punishment, but it is what it is. This was avoidable and if it's found the officer shouldn't have even stopped him in the first place, it was avoidable, first and foremost, by the officer. If it's found the traffic stop was a good stop, the kid is 100% at fault. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You don't get to act like an idiot and then cry about the consequences of acting like an idiot.
I get such a sick stomach from parents who teach their kids to defy law enforcement. As far as I'm concerned, those parents pulled the trigger themselves. I don't know that's what happened in this case, but the attitude from that kid wasn't something new.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 14, 2015 21:50:52 GMT -5
While much of what GEL states is true, I wish to add a little to it. The first officer had an option to not push the issue. He had a second officer on the way. He easily could have waited for the second officer to get there and deal with the kid. The new on the scene officer could have deescalated the situation by playing "good cop". This did not have to end in a dead kid and the police were the adults in the situation. I consider the officer at fault. I agree with that. He had radioed for back-up. He should have waited for that back-up. He thought the situation was serious/dangerous enough to ask for help. He should have waited for it.
I don't agree the officer was at fault unless it's found that he shouldn't have been pulling the kid over anyway. There are cops that just get pissed off and do stupid things. If he's one of them, he should be punished. If that's not the case, the kid is 100% at fault for what happened.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Oct 14, 2015 22:20:21 GMT -5
Whether he was shot because he flashed his lights or he was shot for the reason you say, "because he was a complete idiot", he is still dead for no good reason. BOOO!! on if he had just done what he was told to do by the cop, he wouldn't have been shot.
I agree he's dead for no good reason. He's dead for awful reasons - ones he brought on himself. I refuse to excuse people for their bad behavior. You act like an idiot - there might be some serious consequences. That's the way it is. That doesn't mean I think death should be the punishment, but it is what it is. This was avoidable and if it's found the officer shouldn't have even stopped him in the first place, it was avoidable, first and foremost, by the officer. If it's found the traffic stop was a good stop, the kid is 100% at fault. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You don't get to act like an idiot and then cry about the consequences of acting like an idiot.
I get such a sick stomach from parents who teach their kids to defy law enforcement. As far as I'm concerned, those parents pulled the trigger themselves. I don't know that's what happened in this case, but the attitude from that kid wasn't something new.
GEL, you are scaring the crap out of me. You scare me more than the cops that patrol the roads ten miles from here and they scare me enough to make me consider making illegal turns through the expressway median just to avoid them. I'd rather navigate Cedar-Penn at 1:30 AM than deal with cops like these at any time of day or night. I simply cannot understand what is possibly behind this refusal to de-escalate. What level of deference is necessary to keep onself safe? How many legal rights do you have to waive just to stay on the cop's good side? I'm beginning to think that this kind of body-cam-recorded thuggery has something to do with preserving the right to be hard-ass, or wrong, when the citizen in question doesn't look quite so corn-fed. Obviously, any sense of security that I might have ever drawn from my corn-fed complexion and petite stature is absolutely shot. Ditto for any benefit that decent diction might have ever gotten me.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 14, 2015 22:36:45 GMT -5
... I don't agree the officer was at fault unless it's found that he shouldn't have been pulling the kid over anyway. ... The explanation of why he pulled him over is on the video. The kid flashed his bright lights because he believed the car coming towards him had its brights on. The cop states that other drivers had also felt that was the case. The cop knew this because, as he clearly states, he had pulled over other cars when their drivers had flashed their brights at him. Is flashing brights probably cause to pull someone over when you know already that your lights appear to be on high beam. It isn't in my book. YMMV.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 15, 2015 0:31:24 GMT -5
I'm confused by some of the logic on this thread. It's not ok to shoot somebody because they flashed their lights but it is ok to shoot somebody because they brought it on to themselves by being an idiot and it is what it is? Wow! OMG!!! It's ok to shoot somebody and all that should be done for "cops that just get pissed off and do stupid things" should be punished?! I refuse to excuse people for their bad behavior on message boards when they say stuff like this. I'm wondering if I think they are an idiot does that mean they should be shot too because it is what it is? WTH?!!! (And no - I don't really think that but I was trying to make a point of how absurd it sounds) Very disappointing to read this stuff.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Oct 15, 2015 5:53:31 GMT -5
The Police should not have the right to be Judge, Jury , and Executioner. It is the Police who are escalating minor situations into lethal, violent situations. And, they are not held accountable so they have become and will continue to become more and more bold. Years ago, you would never have thought that being pulled over for minor crap would result in your death. Now that is a very real possibility. Surprisingly, medical professionals and EMTs and social workers handle all kinds of situations but don't gun down and kill people who act out or shoot the mentally ill or kill addicts or old folks with Alzheimers. The fact that we don't expect the Police to have any real restraint now is very disturbing. All that matters is for a cop to say he "felt threatened". And, there doesn't have to be ANY evidence of threat whatsoever. It is only what the Cop "feels". So, pulling up to a 12 yr old sitting at a park bench with a toy gun is now "threatening". A black man selling cigarettes is now "threatening". In every situation they just say "oh I felt threatened". OR, they tackle someone and then claim they were "resisting arrest". Well, if you are tackled and being strangled by the Police, your body is NATURALLY going to resist and fight back because you are trying not to die. But, whatever. We seem to just accept this now as the New Normal.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 8:04:50 GMT -5
Whether he was shot because he flashed his lights or he was shot for the reason you say, "because he was a complete idiot", he is still dead for no good reason. BOOO!! on if he had just done what he was told to do by the cop, he wouldn't have been shot.
I agree he's dead for no good reason. He's dead for awful reasons - ones he brought on himself. I refuse to excuse people for their bad behavior. You act like an idiot - there might be some serious consequences. That's the way it is. That doesn't mean I think death should be the punishment, but it is what it is. This was avoidable and if it's found the officer shouldn't have even stopped him in the first place, it was avoidable, first and foremost, by the officer. If it's found the traffic stop was a good stop, the kid is 100% at fault. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You don't get to act like an idiot and then cry about the consequences of acting like an idiot.
I get such a sick stomach from parents who teach their kids to defy law enforcement. As far as I'm concerned, those parents pulled the trigger themselves. I don't know that's what happened in this case, but the attitude from that kid wasn't something new.
You seem to be completely dismissing any responsibility on police to act like professionals when faced with an idiot. The guy paid for his actions, if they were wrong, with his life. The policeman should pay for his actions. He should never be allowed near a gun and certainly should not ever be allowed to hold a job with life and death responsibilities. That at the least. eta: I taught both my daughters not to trust the police. I tell the same to my granddaughters. I am sure there are good police out there. The good ones will understand that there are bad police and reasonable people should be wary in any police dealings. There is no question but that many police are bad and will kill or frame or lie and not all police are good.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2015 8:33:29 GMT -5
... I don't agree the officer was at fault unless it's found that he shouldn't have been pulling the kid over anyway. ... The explanation of why he pulled him over is on the video. The kid flashed his bright lights because he believed the car coming towards him had its brights on. The cop states that other drivers had also felt that was the case. The cop knew this because, as he clearly states, he had pulled over other cars when their drivers had flashed their brights at him. Is flashing brights probably cause to pull someone over when you know already that your lights appear to be on high beam. It isn't in my book. YMMV. Except that your book (or my book) isn't the book that counts. If this was an appropriate traffic stop, that driver was obligated to provide his license, registration and proof of insurance. His adamant refusal to do so is a clear blinking red light that something else was going on. Or at least it would be to anyone who has ever conducted a traffic stop and isn't just arm-chair quarterbacking here. His attitude and demeanor gave that cop every reason to believe something was not right. THAT is what escalated this situation. Not the cop. He was pleasant, calm and polite up to the point where it was clear the driver was not going to cooperate.
I clearly stated that I didn't feel death was the penalty warranted for this kid's behavior, but I wasn't there. You all know as well as I do that had that kid provided his ID, that officer would have probably sent him on his way with a warning or sent him on his way knowing all was well. If people want to go into hysterics because I take the side of the person who was doing his job over some obnoxious brat who thought he was a big man, go ahead. It doesn't change the fact that this kid is at fault for what happened to him. It takes a serious case of denial not to see that. Of course, I'm sorry for the loss of a child. It shouldn't have happened.
There were red flags all over the place with this kid. If you don't see them, it's because you don't want to and would rather just blame the cop. I can't see what happened after the cop kicked the kid's cell phone away. I'm not saying that kid SHOULD have been shot. I'm saying that the fact that he was shot was his own fault. I can't see from the video what happened after the officer kicked that phone away. If the cop was in the wrong, he should be punished with whatever punishment is warranted. If he's found to have shot that kid for no reason, he should go to prison. I see the issue from both sides. I'm totally stumped as to why others can't.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2015 8:39:08 GMT -5
I agree he's dead for no good reason. He's dead for awful reasons - ones he brought on himself. I refuse to excuse people for their bad behavior. You act like an idiot - there might be some serious consequences. That's the way it is. That doesn't mean I think death should be the punishment, but it is what it is. This was avoidable and if it's found the officer shouldn't have even stopped him in the first place, it was avoidable, first and foremost, by the officer. If it's found the traffic stop was a good stop, the kid is 100% at fault. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You don't get to act like an idiot and then cry about the consequences of acting like an idiot.
I get such a sick stomach from parents who teach their kids to defy law enforcement. As far as I'm concerned, those parents pulled the trigger themselves. I don't know that's what happened in this case, but the attitude from that kid wasn't something new.
You seem to be completely dismissing any responsibility on police to act like professionals when faced with an idiot. The guy paid for his actions, if they were wrong, with his life. The policeman should pay for his actions. He should never be allowed near a gun and certainly should not ever be allowed to hold a job with life and death responsibilities. That at the least. eta: I taught both my daughters not to trust the police. I tell the same to my granddaughters. I am sure there are good police out there. The good ones will understand that there are bad police and reasonable people should be wary in any police dealings. There is no question but that many police are bad and will kill or frame or lie and not all police are good. Do you remember how upset you get when people post something about what you post that is untrue? You are doing it to me now. I've stated at least 3 times that if the cop is found to be in the wrong, he should be punished, or words to that affect. I've said the same thing you said in that first paragraph.
Teach your kids what you feel is best. That's your prerogative as a parent. We all have to do what we feel is right.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 8:40:47 GMT -5
The explanation of why he pulled him over is on the video. The kid flashed his bright lights because he believed the car coming towards him had its brights on. The cop states that other drivers had also felt that was the case. The cop knew this because, as he clearly states, he had pulled over other cars when their drivers had flashed their brights at him. Is flashing brights probably cause to pull someone over when you know already that your lights appear to be on high beam. It isn't in my book. YMMV. Except that your book (or my book) isn't the book that counts. If this was an appropriate traffic stop, that driver was obligated to provide his license, registration and proof of insurance. His adamant refusal to do so is a clear blinking red light that something else was going on. Or at least it would be to anyone who has ever conducted a traffic stop and isn't just arm-chair quarterbacking here. His attitude and demeanor gave that cop every reason to believe something was not right. THAT is what escalated this situation. Not the cop. He was pleasant, calm and polite up to the point where it was clear the driver was not going to cooperate.
I clearly stated that I didn't feel death was the penalty warranted for this kid's behavior, but I wasn't there. You all know as well as I do that had that kid provided his ID, that officer would have probably sent him on his way with a warning or sent him on his way knowing all was well. If people want to go into hysterics because I take the side of the person who was doing his job over some obnoxious brat who thought he was a big man, go ahead. It doesn't change the fact that this kid is at fault for what happened to him. It takes a serious case of denial not to see that. Of course, I'm sorry for the loss of a child. It shouldn't have happened.
There were red flags all over the place with this kid. If you don't see them, it's because you don't want to and would rather just blame the cop. I can't see what happened after the cop kicked the kid's cell phone away. I'm not saying that kid SHOULD have been shot. I'm saying that the fact that he was shot was his own fault. I can't see from the video what happened after the officer kicked that phone away. If the cop was in the wrong, he should be punished with whatever punishment is warranted. If he's found to have shot that kid for no reason, he should go to prison. I see the issue from both sides. I'm totally stumped as to why others can't.
Cops are not allowed to do whatever they want. They have to have a lawful reason to pull someone over. Being pissed that someone flicked their bright lights at them, the cops, is not a lawful reason. If the cop had followed the law, or acted professionally nothing would have happened. I agree though if the kid had of accepted whatever came his way from a cop abusing his power then he would probably still be alive. It is a sad world we live in that you have to be wary of cops killing you if you think them wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 8:44:51 GMT -5
You seem to be completely dismissing any responsibility on police to act like professionals when faced with an idiot. The guy paid for his actions, if they were wrong, with his life. The policeman should pay for his actions. He should never be allowed near a gun and certainly should not ever be allowed to hold a job with life and death responsibilities. That at the least. eta: I taught both my daughters not to trust the police. I tell the same to my granddaughters. I am sure there are good police out there. The good ones will understand that there are bad police and reasonable people should be wary in any police dealings. There is no question but that many police are bad and will kill or frame or lie and not all police are good. Do you remember how upset you get when people post something about what you post that is untrue? You are doing it to me now. I've stated at least 3 times that if the cop is found to be in the wrong, he should be punished, or words to that affect. I've said the same thing you said in that first paragraph.
Teach your kids what you feel is best. That's your prerogative as a parent. We all have to do what we feel is right.
You are one of my favorite posters and I apologize for not understanding your post. You said he is dead for reasons he brought on himself. My view is that there were two actors in the situation. I do not understand how you saying he brought on his own death is not dismissing the cop's responsibility for his own actions.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2015 8:48:48 GMT -5
I don't know what happened, hickle. We can't see what happened after the cell phone got kicked away. Perhaps nothing happened. Perhaps the officer just decided to shoot him. Perhaps the kid came up off the ground with a gun in his hand. We don't know. I do know that kid brought on this trouble himself, but that doesn't mean that the officer was right in how he acted. I don't know. There isn't enough information when the camera went sort of blank. The officer had called for back-up. I highly doubt he was just out prowling the roads looking for someone to shoot. But? I don't know.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Oct 15, 2015 8:53:10 GMT -5
Lansing State Journal coverage today of the same story. The article explains why there was no dash-cam and contains links to unedited video and a (not very good) timeline of the stop. An autopsy revealed some THC and it was determined that the driver did not have his DL on his person. The kid was not entirely in the right and the stop was likely going to get long and expensive, but he should not be dead. This snippet from the article confuses me. Guilford refused to give Frost his driver's license, registration and proof of insurance, which would have been a misdemeanor, according to Lloyd. It was later determined Guilford's license was with his girlfriend. Frost declined requests from Guilford for his badge number.
In my eyes, that's pretty much backwards. Guilford declined to give Frost is DL et al and Frost refused requests from Guilford for his badge number.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 8:56:48 GMT -5
I don't know what happened, hickle. We can't see what happened after the cell phone got kicked away. Perhaps nothing happened. Perhaps the officer just decided to shoot him. Perhaps the kid came up off the ground with a gun in his hand. We don't know. I do know that kid brought on this trouble himself, but that doesn't mean that the officer was right in how he acted. I don't know. There isn't enough information when the camera went sort of blank. The officer had called for back-up. I highly doubt he was just out prowling the roads looking for someone to shoot. But? I don't know. we know the kid is dead. If you want to give presumption of innocence to the police officer, I understand that. I want to give presumption of 'not deserving to die' to anyone who gets killed by police until it is proven otherwise. Police are given a lot of authority and power and they deserve to be held up to a higher standard not a lower standard. My understanding of biology is that many brains are not fully formed until early twenties. I know when I was young I was immature in many ways until late. The standard for professionalism and sensible actions stands with the police officer more then with the kid he killed. Or at least that is my view
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2015 9:01:10 GMT -5
The explanation of why he pulled him over is on the video. The kid flashed his bright lights because he believed the car coming towards him had its brights on. The cop states that other drivers had also felt that was the case. The cop knew this because, as he clearly states, he had pulled over other cars when their drivers had flashed their brights at him. Is flashing brights probably cause to pull someone over when you know already that your lights appear to be on high beam. It isn't in my book. YMMV. Except that your book (or my book) isn't the book that counts. If this was an appropriate traffic stop, ... The police officer states specifically on camera why he pulled him over. I stated it above. Not sure why you insist on "if".
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2015 9:03:19 GMT -5
... Perhaps the kid came up off the ground with a gun in his hand. We don't know. ... I think the officer would have included that in his report.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2015 9:03:43 GMT -5
Except that your book (or my book) isn't the book that counts. If this was an appropriate traffic stop, ... The police officer states specifically on camera why he pulled him over. I stated it above. Not sure why you insist on "if". I keep saying "if" because I don't know the laws of that jurisdiction and I don't know if flashing lights is a valid reason to initiate a traffic stop. Valid - as in legal - not as in what I think.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 15, 2015 9:06:30 GMT -5
... Perhaps the kid came up off the ground with a gun in his hand. We don't know. ... I think the officer would have included that in his report. I didn't see a copy of the officer's report. I've only read what was posted here. If a copy of the officer's report was included in that link, I missed it and I can't get it to come up here at work.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 15, 2015 9:07:23 GMT -5
... There isn't enough information when the camera went sort of blank. ... It is clear that the cop had the kid on the ground. It is my thought that he was wrong to have done that and that it doesn't matter what happened after. The police officer was at fault.
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