djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:44:06 GMT -5
Of course we are #1. Its what we do. i'd like it better if we stopped being #1 at this, thanks.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:45:42 GMT -5
Let's get to the mass murder point of guns. The founding fathers had no future vision of anything but a rifle and a hand gun. Defense and hunting. There is no need for a sane person to own the fire power these weapons have. No need to go to McDonald's with a semiautomatic rifle around your shoulder. Hey is that thing loaded? Oh how did you accidentally shoot yourself or a friend? The Virginia Tech shooter had 2 handguns. Btw hunting has nothing to do with the right to bear arms. We have the right to own guns beyond hunting. the Oregon college guy committed suicide. so much for your theory about police stopping him. he could very easily have got 32 victims.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 16:48:57 GMT -5
Society will not function unless people police themselves. When people stop policing themselves and lose their moral compass, then all the Police State in the world isn't going to stop the violence. did you not *just* post in another thread that you think we CAN force people to get help, and discussed involuntary commitment? how does that fall in line with policing yourself?? sent from my electronic distraction Be nice. Her opinion changed over the 12 minutes between posts. ETA:
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:51:25 GMT -5
i don't think that is what Phoenix is saying. he is saying that babies, the mentally ill, violent sex offenders, and everyone else has a right to a gun, because it is in the constitution. therefore, we can't do anything about it. but he forgets that the constitution specifies a right to slaves. there is no right to vote in the constitution. there are a lot of things that are IN the constitution that are not considered sacred- that are considered changeable, and there are many that are NOT in the constitution that ARE considered sacred, and unchangeable. this idea that somehow the 2nd amendment precludes sensible regulations is DUMB. the second amendment talks about militias. do you want a crazy in your militia? how about a baby? how about the blind? is there REALLY no way that you can restrict ANY gun use whatsoever because of the 2nd? THAT seems nuts to me. I don't have a problem with denying purchasing of firearms to criminals with a criminal record. cool. so, how do you feel about giving them to the mentally ill (with violent proclivities), babies, and the blind?Here's the thing, the ability to own a gun is a fundamental civil right. And in order for any civil right to be taken away, you need due process of law. Anyone with a criminal background has gone through due process, and I have no problem denying them access to firearms. fundamental civil rights can be denied in certain instances. you named one. give me some more, and we will close the gap. The mentally ill are a different matter. When you start talking about denying a civil right to the mentally ill, you quickly start to run into many issues. First, there's basic HIPPA laws. Second, there's the law of unintended consequences, people who own guns and might have mental illness issues might then not seek treatment. Third, the vast majority of the mentally ill are not dangerous. Fourth, as stated above, it's not right to take away a fundamental civil right without due process of law. Fifth, how are you even going to find the dangerously mentally ill in the general population? Can you start forcing people to see qualified psychologists? no, not really. what THE LAW REQUIRES is denying anyone who has been committed the ability to purchase a gun. you can argue that this standard screens out a lot of people it shouldn't, and that is fair to argue. it also does NOT screen out people who have never been committed, so clearly some work needs to be done here. but just because it is "problematic" doesn't mean it should not be done.
ie- perhaps you could challenge your case by a review board? i dunno, Phoenix. but just as i don't think we should allow drunks to drive, i don't think we should allow crazy people to own guns. my standard is THIS: would i have them in my militia? if not, then we should seriously consider whether the 2nd amendment actually gives them the RIGHT to own. it is, after all, about militias.
Sure, I agree that keeping guns out of the hands of the dangerously mentally ill is a good thing, but I don't see how you can go about it in a fair and just manner. i do. so, we differ. and that's cool. well meaning people can differ on this issue.And I support fundamental gun safety and education. I'm fine with classes and other things to teach people how to lock up and secure their guns. great idea. also not part of gun ownership now. so we agree on a lot of this.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:52:58 GMT -5
What law would have stopped any of these shootings? WHat process would have been enacted to prevent these? HOW would the process have worked? Tell me. impossible to say........ until we know how he obtained his FOURTEEN guns.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:55:21 GMT -5
About the only thing I can say on the subject now is that the world would ultimately be a much better and safer place if every gun blew up in its owner's hands....
Now that we have solved all the problems guns and mental illness, Are we going to move on to solving the alcohol, drugs and mental illness that kill far more people than guns? legal drugs kill way more than illegal ones. let's hear your proposal.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:57:37 GMT -5
We haven't solved anything. Nor do I believe we have the will to even attempt to really solve anything. But consider this:
How many millions of dollars are spent, and how many liberties are we willing (or forced) to cede in an attempt to protect us from terrorism? How many lives per year does terrorism cost us as Americans? Effectively zero?
How many lives does gun violence cost us each year as Americans? In excess of 30,000? With two-thirds of those as suicides? And yet we can't even effect reasonable measures to make people responsible for those guns? Stupid. Utterly stupid. Obama alluded to this in his speech, and he is absolutely correct. we will let people anal probe us in airports to make us "safe" from "terrorists", but we won't allow for a national database to be used to keep the guns out of the hands of seriously dangerous people, INCLUDING TERRORISTS. wtf is wrong with us?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 3, 2015 16:58:14 GMT -5
Hey, we're top of the heap! Number ONE!!!!!!!!! Country Guns per 100 Total Firearm-related Deaths per 100,000 United States 88.8 10.2 Switzerland 45.7 3.84 Finland 45.3 3.64 Sweden 31.6 1.47 Norway 31.3 1.78 France 31.2 3 Canada 30.8 2.44 Austria 30.4 2.94 Iceland 30.3 1.25 Germany 30.3 1.1 New Zealand 22.6 2.66 Greece 22.5 1.5 Belgium 17.2 2.43 Luxembourg 15.3 1.81 Australia 15 1.04 South Africa 12.7 9.41 Turkey 12.5 0.72 Denmark 12 1.45 Malta 11.9 2.16 Italy 11.9 1.28 Spain 10.4 0.63 Ireland 8.6 1.03 Portugal 8.5 1.77 Israel 7.3 1.86 United Kingdom 6.2 0.25 Netherlands 3.9 0.46 Japan 0.6 0.06 The funny thing about that stat, is if you look at the statistics by race or even by "sub-culture" within the US - white, middle class people are just as safe, if not safer than those northern European countries that are listed. Those countries don't have large populations of poverty. Maybe we are trying to solve the wrong problems. Maybe we should keep guns, but become near-socialists. There are so many things that contribute to the problem - there is no single solution.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:58:40 GMT -5
When was the last time we were #1 in something good? we have one flag left to fly, before China crushes it: we are currently the #1 GDP state.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 16:59:35 GMT -5
Society will not function unless people police themselves. then we are doomed. because even on this board, there are people that are absolutely incapable of it. buh bye, America. nice knowing ya.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 17:06:50 GMT -5
We haven't solved anything. Nor do I believe we have the will to even attempt to really solve anything. But consider this:
How many millions of dollars are spent, and how many liberties are we willing (or forced) to cede in an attempt to protect us from terrorism? How many lives per year does terrorism cost us as Americans? Effectively zero?
How many lives does gun violence cost us each year as Americans? In excess of 30,000? With two-thirds of those as suicides? And yet we can't even effect reasonable measures to make people responsible for those guns? Stupid. Utterly stupid. Obama alluded to this in his speech, and he is absolutely correct. we will let people anal probe us in airports to make us "safe" from "terrorists", but we won't allow for a national database to be used to keep the guns out of the hands of seriously dangerous people, INCLUDING TERRORISTS. wtf is wrong with us?The cynic in me would suggest it is because we are concentrating on the wrong "rights." And that is because we don't really much care about rights at all, but instead about what we want.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 3, 2015 17:09:49 GMT -5
Obama alluded to this in his speech, and he is absolutely correct. we will let people anal probe us in airports to make us "safe" from "terrorists", but we won't allow for a national database to be used to keep the guns out of the hands of seriously dangerous people, INCLUDING TERRORISTS. wtf is wrong with us?The cynic in me would suggest it is because we are concentrating on the wrong "rights." And that is because we don't really much care about rights at all, but instead about what we want. what we are basically saying is that crazy assholes have the RIGHT to murder us. it is utterly insane, actually. utterly....insane.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 17:16:03 GMT -5
Technically we are only saying that they have the right to PREPARE to murder us. Actually DOING it is still considered to be a bad thing by most.
Depending on who the victims are, of course....
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 3, 2015 17:51:27 GMT -5
Hey, we're top of the heap! Number ONE!!!!!!!!! Country Guns per 100 Total Firearm-related Deaths per 100,000 United States 88.8 10.2 Switzerland 45.7 3.84 Finland 45.3 3.64 Sweden 31.6 1.47 Norway 31.3 1.78 France 31.2 3 Canada 30.8 2.44 Austria 30.4 2.94 Iceland 30.3 1.25 Germany 30.3 1.1 New Zealand 22.6 2.66 Greece 22.5 1.5 Belgium 17.2 2.43 Luxembourg 15.3 1.81 Australia 15 1.04 South Africa 12.7 9.41 Turkey 12.5 0.72 Denmark 12 1.45 Malta 11.9 2.16 Italy 11.9 1.28 Spain 10.4 0.63 Ireland 8.6 1.03 Portugal 8.5 1.77 Israel 7.3 1.86 United Kingdom 6.2 0.25 Netherlands 3.9 0.46 Japan 0.6 0.06 The funny thing about that stat, is if you look at the statistics by race or even by "sub-culture" within the US - white, middle class people are just as safe, if not safer than those northern European countries that are listed. Those countries don't have large populations of poverty. Maybe we are trying to solve the wrong problems. Maybe we should keep guns, but become near-socialists. There are so many things that contribute to the problem - there is no single solution. I agree with you. Why don't you just say it...blacks seems to kill each other and others with wild abandon. I'm not being racist, but it is true. I don't know if it is poverty, if it is being raised without a father...or they just don't have the same respect for life. One thing I will say, you rarely, if ever, have a black man go into a school, or college, and try to blow everyone away. Strange world.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 18:12:37 GMT -5
The funny thing about that stat, is if you look at the statistics by race or even by "sub-culture" within the US - white, middle class people are just as safe, if not safer than those northern European countries that are listed. Those countries don't have large populations of poverty. Maybe we are trying to solve the wrong problems. Maybe we should keep guns, but become near-socialists. There are so many things that contribute to the problem - there is no single solution. I agree with you. Why don't you just say it...blacks seems to kill each other and others with wild abandon. I'm not being racist, but it is true. I don't know if it is poverty, if it is being raised without a father...or they just don't have the same respect for life. One thing I will say, you rarely, if ever, have a black man go into a school, or college, and try to blow everyone away. Strange world. Interesting concept. Disaffected whites (by virtue of being part of the dominant culture yet still not "making it") feel more of an inclination to take out their anger and frustration on society in general? While blacks (not being part of that dominant culture) take out theirs more individually in connection with other crimes? Worth a thought....
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 3, 2015 18:25:03 GMT -5
Tallguy...I have to go, but that is an interesting observation.
More than interesting...there could be a doctoral thesis in that.
Later.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 3, 2015 18:33:47 GMT -5
The funny thing about that stat, is if you look at the statistics by race or even by "sub-culture" within the US - white, middle class people are just as safe, if not safer than those northern European countries that are listed. Those countries don't have large populations of poverty. Maybe we are trying to solve the wrong problems. Maybe we should keep guns, but become near-socialists. There are so many things that contribute to the problem - there is no single solution. I agree with you. Why don't you just say it...blacks seems to kill each other and others with wild abandon. I'm not being racist, but it is true. I don't know if it is poverty, if it is being raised without a father...or they just don't have the same respect for life. One thing I will say, you rarely, if ever, have a black man go into a school, or college, and try to blow everyone away. Strange world. Very few serial killers have been black too.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 3, 2015 18:39:31 GMT -5
I agree with you. Why don't you just say it...blacks seems to kill each other and others with wild abandon. I'm not being racist, but it is true. I don't know if it is poverty, if it is being raised without a father...or they just don't have the same respect for life. One thing I will say, you rarely, if ever, have a black man go into a school, or college, and try to blow everyone away. Strange world. Interesting concept. Disaffected whites (by virtue of being part of the dominant culture yet still not "making it") feel more of an inclination to take out their anger and frustration on society in general? While blacks (not being part of that dominant culture) take out theirs more individually in connection with other crimes? Worth a thought.... I have heard it suggested the issue is a sense of connectedness or lack thereof to institutions of education that explain school shootings. Why shot up something that has no significance in your life?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 3, 2015 18:42:23 GMT -5
Hey, we're top of the heap! Number ONE!!!!!!!!! Country Guns per 100 Total Firearm-related Deaths per 100,000 United States 88.8 10.2 Switzerland 45.7 3.84 Finland 45.3 3.64 Sweden 31.6 1.47 Norway 31.3 1.78 France 31.2 3 Canada 30.8 2.44 Austria 30.4 2.94 Iceland 30.3 1.25 Germany 30.3 1.1 New Zealand 22.6 2.66 Greece 22.5 1.5 Belgium 17.2 2.43 Luxembourg 15.3 1.81 Australia 15 1.04 South Africa 12.7 9.41 Turkey 12.5 0.72 Denmark 12 1.45 Malta 11.9 2.16 Italy 11.9 1.28 Spain 10.4 0.63 Ireland 8.6 1.03 Portugal 8.5 1.77 Israel 7.3 1.86 United Kingdom 6.2 0.25 Netherlands 3.9 0.46 Japan 0.6 0.06 BTW - Sweden, Finland and Norway all have very high gun ownership levels - not as high as the US, but still a significant population of gun owners. Maybe that says that mere ownership isn't the problem - but it is more of a social problem.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 3, 2015 20:00:39 GMT -5
did you not *just* post in another thread that you think we CAN force people to get help, and discussed involuntary commitment? how does that fall in line with policing yourself?? sent from my electronic distraction Be nice. Her opinion changed over the 12 minutes between posts. ETA: were it not for the tone of the OP, I would have asked her over there at what point in the involuntary commitment does the sick person receive their gun? y'know, because more guns fix everything.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 3, 2015 20:36:34 GMT -5
Society will not function unless people police themselves. When people stop policing themselves and lose their moral compass, then all the Police State in the world isn't going to stop the violence. You recently blamed gun violence on atheists and their lack of a moral compass. How does that square with the more atheistic countries having less gun violence? Are you saying that atheists have a better moral compass and have the ability to police themselves better? Why does the US, a supposedly "Christian" country, have so much more gun violence? You can't have it both ways.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 3, 2015 21:21:16 GMT -5
Oh, ok. He's had 6 years to actually propose something rather than sit on his arse, but whatevs. You must have had your fingertips in your eyes too, "but whatevs." President Obama's Plan to Address Our Nation's Urgent Mental Health NeedPresident Obama's recently proposed Fiscal Year (FY) 2016 Budget provides the nation with an unprecedented opportunity to address America's urgent behavioral health needs. About 1 in 5 Americans experiences a mental illness every year, yet many struggle to access treatment and services. The FY 2016 Budget proposes improvements to the mental health system by expanding treatment for serious mental illness (SMI) and by reaching people in crisis when they need help the most. Many of the president's proposals in this area are focused within the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and its Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA). SAMHSA is a relatively small federal agency, but has a large effect in reducing the impact of mental illnesses and substance abuse within our nation's communities. Three-quarters of SAMHSA's mental health budget is dedicated to serving people with SMI. SAMHSA's Community Mental Health Services Block Grant, Children's Mental Health Initiative, and Primary and Behavioral Health Care Integration programs provide medical treatment and recovery support services to millions of Americans with the most serious needs. SAMHSA's leadership, including coordination with other federal departments, is focused on enhancing our ability to help ensure that people with these disorders receive vital supports for treatment and recovery. Full article here. President Obama's Plan to Address Our Nation's Urgent Mental Health Needs No reply yet from Shooby. Just the sound of
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 3, 2015 21:38:37 GMT -5
About the only thing I can say on the subject now is that the world would ultimately be a much better and safer place if every gun blew up in its owner's hands....
Now that we have solved all the problems guns and mental illness, Are we going to move on to solving the alcohol, drugs and mental illness that kill far more people than guns? What we need to do to stop a bad drunk driver is to meet him on the road with a good drunk driver. how about this one. www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/74-overdoses-in-72-hours-laced-heroin-may-be-to-blame/ar-AAf4jUJ?ocid=spartandhp
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 21:49:50 GMT -5
It's all over my FB that the shooter is Muslim ?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 22:07:34 GMT -5
I highly doubt that is true. It would conflict with everything I have read. Far more likely that your FB "friends" are either trying to bash Muslims or alternatively promote a "war against Christians" theme for their own purposes.
Or simply passing on ignorance they heard elsewhere....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 22:16:04 GMT -5
Saiv Sharma
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Oct 3, 2015 22:32:22 GMT -5
It's all over my FB that the shooter is Muslim ? why does that make a difference? I know there have been multiple reports of the shooter asking victims' religion and then shooting only those that declared Christian, but why does it make a difference what religion the shooter happened to follow? there have been instances of varied religious backgrounds of shooters.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 3, 2015 22:36:14 GMT -5
One of the survivors from the room is saying it wasn't exactly like that.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 22:38:10 GMT -5
Because when you're trying to flood the country with them and the push back is out of fear that they're going to kill us, you try to keep a lid on the fact that he was one. Trying to cover it up is wrong.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 3, 2015 23:06:04 GMT -5
Anyway the new story is that it's a guy called Chris Mercer. Supposedly his Dad is apologizing. I'm sure that makes a world of difference to his victims families.
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