The rough and tumble world of middle school sports

[Shooby]

Our school doesnt cut anyone.

[Shooby]

Find a travel team. Way more fun and usually higher level of play.

[t-dog]

Oh great - finally had the finger he jammed at the tryout on 9/25 checked since it was still purplish - he broke his dang pinkey finger at the stupid tryout! 

[beergut]

I coached a few years of youth football. It used to drive me nuts when a coach would say, "That kid isn't any good, he won't help your team." The great thing about football is that there are a bunch of different roles and things you can do to help the team. If a kid can't be a good teammate and contribute, that is a reflection on ME as a coach, not him, because I didn't find a way to make him an asset to the team. 

[Wisconsin Beth]

How is he doing t-dog? 

I thought of you two when my son and I were waiting for urgent care the other day.  My kid fell of the monkey bars.  At least they were both being active (as opposed to getting Nintendo thumb or something!) 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Oct 20, 2015 21:20:00 GMT -5 beergut said:

I coached a few years of youth football. It used to drive me nuts when a coach would say, "That kid isn't any good, he won't help your team." The great thing about football is that there are a bunch of different roles and things you can do to help the team. If a kid can't be a good teammate and contribute, that is a reflection on ME as a coach, not him, because I didn't find a way to make him an asset to the team. 

Our high school football coach recruits everyone and anyone to play -- you almost have to opt out, it is that inclusive.  We even have autistic kids on the team.  It is a family, a brotherhood. The boys walk out of the locker room two-by-two proudly holding hands with their partner.  Football is the UU of sports -- there is a position/role for anyone and everyone.  

It's too bad more sports can't adopt a similar philosophy, but inclusion requires a focus on skill-development and sportsmanship over winning.  

[alabamagal]

Oct 21, 2015 11:33:37 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Oct 20, 2015 21:20:00 GMT -5 beergut said:

I coached a few years of youth football. It used to drive me nuts when a coach would say, "That kid isn't any good, he won't help your team." The great thing about football is that there are a bunch of different roles and things you can do to help the team. If a kid can't be a good teammate and contribute, that is a reflection on ME as a coach, not him, because I didn't find a way to make him an asset to the team. 

Our high school football coach recruits everyone and anyone to play -- you almost have to opt out, it is that inclusive.  We even have autistic kids on the team.  It is a family, a brotherhood. The boys walk out of the locker room two-by-two proudly holding hands with their partner.  Football is the UU of sports -- there is a position/role for anyone and everyone.  

It's too bad more sports can't adopt a similar philosophy, but inclusion requires a focus on skill-development and sportsmanship over winning.  

My kids went to a very small private school (40 kids per grade).  There were some sports that took all who showed up.  Football and track would take all.  Some had tryouts.  Basketball and cheerleading were tryout sports.

The football team had anywhere between 18-35 boys on it, depending on the coach.  That would be out of the ~50-60 boys in high school.  My older son played even though he was 5'2" and weighed 105 lbs in 9th grade.  The coach loved him for his effort and attitude, even made him a team captain at one point.  There were 18 kids on the team his 9th grade, so the coach could use every body available because he couldn't even do a full offense vs. defense drill.  DS played on the kick return team.  When you team is getting beat badly, you are in on a lot of kick returns!  It was great for him.  He was on the team in 9th, 10th and 11th grade, and he was 6' tall by them buy only ~130lbs.  He stopped playing in 12th grade due to the coach and realizing football was not for him.

DS2 was a real football player.  He was bigger and more athletic than DS1, was 2nd team in 9th grade and first team 10th-12th grade on both offense and defensive line.

They had a lot of opportunity to play sports than they would have at a public (larger) school just because of the numbers.  They also got a much better education, which was the main reason they went to that school.

[zibazinski]

Oct 21, 2015 11:33:37 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Oct 20, 2015 21:20:00 GMT -5 beergut said:

I coached a few years of youth football. It used to drive me nuts when a coach would say, "That kid isn't any good, he won't help your team." The great thing about football is that there are a bunch of different roles and things you can do to help the team. If a kid can't be a good teammate and contribute, that is a reflection on ME as a coach, not him, because I didn't find a way to make him an asset to the team. 

Our high school football coach recruits everyone and anyone to play -- you almost have to opt out, it is that inclusive.  We even have autistic kids on the team.  It is a family, a brotherhood. The boys walk out of the locker room two-by-two proudly holding hands with their partner.  Football is the UU of sports -- there is a position/role for anyone and everyone.  

It's too bad more sports can't adopt a similar philosophy, but inclusion requires a focus on skill-development and sportsmanship over winning.  

How did that work out? My autistic students could "tune out" with very little notice so how do they know when they are? I'd worry like crazy they'd get hurt.

[973beachbum]

Oct 21, 2015 20:01:59 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Oct 21, 2015 11:33:37 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Our high school football coach recruits everyone and anyone to play -- you almost have to opt out, it is that inclusive.  We even have autistic kids on the team.  It is a family, a brotherhood. The boys walk out of the locker room two-by-two proudly holding hands with their partner.  Football is the UU of sports -- there is a position/role for anyone and everyone.  

It's too bad more sports can't adopt a similar philosophy, but inclusion requires a focus on skill-development and sportsmanship over winning.  

How did that work out? My autistic students could "tune out" with very little notice so how do they know when they are? I'd worry like crazy they'd get hurt.

It may be the difference between not being cut and actually playing in the games. 

I had kids make the MS team in soccer that I had coached in rec.  It is very competitive as the school has 800 kids.  Even if they make the team playing a another story.  I had kids who had mad skills who absolutely hated it because all they did was sit on the bench.

I can't imagine them trying to not cut anyone.  That would be more like the school having it's own league than an actual team.  it would also require more coaches and field space than they have right now. 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Oct 21, 2015 20:01:59 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Oct 21, 2015 11:33:37 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Our high school football coach recruits everyone and anyone to play -- you almost have to opt out, it is that inclusive.  We even have autistic kids on the team.  It is a family, a brotherhood. The boys walk out of the locker room two-by-two proudly holding hands with their partner.  Football is the UU of sports -- there is a position/role for anyone and everyone.  

It's too bad more sports can't adopt a similar philosophy, but inclusion requires a focus on skill-development and sportsmanship over winning.  

How did that work out? My autistic students could "tune out" with very little notice so how do they know when they are? I'd worry like crazy they'd get hurt.

I apologize.  I worded my previous post poorly.

Our high school football team has a role for everyone, but not every role is a playing position.  This is somewhat based on the ability to play -- safely.  Any student who cannot safely play is given a sideline assignment (handing out water bottles during timeouts, performing the various hand and arm team spirit signals, high-fiving players coming off of the field, etc.).  Team spirit and team support are a huge part of the coaching philosophy.  Players coming off of the field faithfully seek out the designated high-fivers more so than vice versa.  Everyone is embraced in the sideline.  Everyone dresses for the varsity games and anyone who doesn't play a minimum number of plays, then dresses for the JV game on Monday.  Everyone walks out of the Field House to the field and then runs on to the field for the start of the game hand-in-hand with another player.  Everyone eats at the program-wide pre-game meal on Friday afternoons.  Everyone joins the pre-game and mid-game team huddle.  Everyone stays for the post-game coach's comments.  Every member of the team -- no matter the player's role on the team -- is as valued as the next.  It's all in how one defines "team".        

[zibazinski]

Ah, thank you, that makes more sense.

[t-dog]

Wisconsin Beth - The finger has mostly healed. He skipped the final baseball game of the season because he broke his left (throwing) hand and it was uncomfortable to try to grip the ball and throw with 2 fingers taped together.

In a small world moment a friend of mine was chatting up another mom on her son's baseball team (the moms had never met before).  They got to talking about schools where their boys attended and the other mom told my friend her son went to my DS's school.  My friend goes off about what a great athlete my boy is and how messed up the school is to have cut him from the basketball team because she has seen him play and outplay boys way taller than him (keep in mind I am NOT at this event and only hearing about it later).  Eventually the other mom tells my friend that she is the basketball coach at DS's school.  My friend having already inserted her foot into her mouth says "so why did you cut DS?"  Coach admits that he has all the skills that the boys she kept have but "you know, he's just not....tall." 

So indirectly from the horses mouth - kid cut for being skilled but short.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

That's vertical discrimination.  What a verticalist.  

Maybe it's a good thing your DS isn't on her team.  The coach is stupid.  Karma will visit her one day.  

[Wisconsin Beth]

Oct 22, 2015 15:36:27 GMT -5 t-dog said:

Wisconsin Beth - The finger has mostly healed. He skipped the final baseball game of the season because he broke his left (throwing) hand and it was uncomfortable to try to grip the ball and throw with 2 fingers taped together.

In a small world moment a friend of mine was chatting up another mom on her son's baseball team (the moms had never met before).  They got to talking about schools where their boys attended and the other mom told my friend her son went to my DS's school.  My friend goes off about what a great athlete my boy is and how messed up the school is to have cut him from the basketball team because she has seen him play and outplay boys way taller than him (keep in mind I am NOT at this event and only hearing about it later).  Eventually the other mom tells my friend that she is the basketball coach at DS's school.  My friend having already inserted her foot into her mouth says "so why did you cut DS?"  Coach admits that he has all the skills that the boys she kept have but "you know, he's just not....tall." 

So indirectly from the horses mouth - kid cut for being skilled but short.

Well, at least you know for certain and don't have to extrapolate.  (best I can do at this hour of the morning...)

My boy is done with soccer for this fall season, due to the arm.  It's not really a loss because a. it's K4 and K5 soccer and there are no games and b. it runs 6 weeks and we didn't make any of the first 4 weeks of practice.  Coach had issues the first 2 weeks and we had injuries the last 2.  I emailed the day he broke his arm to tell her.  She's not worried.  He's 6 today! 

[Shooby]

Oct 21, 2015 11:33:37 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Oct 20, 2015 21:20:00 GMT -5 beergut said:

I coached a few years of youth football. It used to drive me nuts when a coach would say, "That kid isn't any good, he won't help your team." The great thing about football is that there are a bunch of different roles and things you can do to help the team. If a kid can't be a good teammate and contribute, that is a reflection on ME as a coach, not him, because I didn't find a way to make him an asset to the team. 

Our high school football coach recruits everyone and anyone to play -- you almost have to opt out, it is that inclusive.  We even have autistic kids on the team.  It is a family, a brotherhood. The boys walk out of the locker room two-by-two proudly holding hands with their partner.  Football is the UU of sports -- there is a position/role for anyone and everyone.  

It's too bad more sports can't adopt a similar philosophy, but inclusion requires a focus on skill-development and sportsmanship over winning.  

"Inclusion" does not focus on skill development.  The everyone plays, everyone makes the team discourages skill development.  Kids don't have to work hard to earn playing time.  And, there is very little incentive to get better.  There is nothing wrong with Inclusion, everyone plays type of leagues.  And, neither is there anything wrong with Competitive leagues either.  The problem is that parents want everything.  You can't have it all.  If you have the Everyone plays league, then you have skilled players who are sitting on the bench while the not skilled players play and blow up the game that they worked so hard to win.  Sorry, I don't find that to be Fair either.  We go out of our way to reward the kids who don't try, the kids who don't care and the kids who really don't give a damn and we punish the ones who work  their asses off and who have a passion for the sport.  So, we need to define what the League is.  Is it a Competitve league where the coaches are actually going to try to win games?  Or is it the Kum by yah league where we don't really care what happens?  I have coached both kinds of leagues.  And based on the age of the kids and type of league depends on how I coach.  But, the worst of all worlds is trying to combine both.  Where instead of playing your top 5 in a basketball game, you try to make 2 or 3 mediocre squads out of all of your kids.  Then, nobody really gets any better. 

[t-dog]

Given that it is the middle school basketball team that prompted this - clearly its competitive. Everything my kiddo does is competitive because he can't not compete as its just who he is.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

Oct 22, 2015 15:36:27 GMT -5 t-dog said:

Wisconsin Beth - The finger has mostly healed. He skipped the final baseball game of the season because he broke his left (throwing) hand and it was uncomfortable to try to grip the ball and throw with 2 fingers taped together.

In a small world moment a friend of mine was chatting up another mom on her son's baseball team (the moms had never met before).  They got to talking about schools where their boys attended and the other mom told my friend her son went to my DS's school.  My friend goes off about what a great athlete my boy is and how messed up the school is to have cut him from the basketball team because she has seen him play and outplay boys way taller than him (keep in mind I am NOT at this event and only hearing about it later).  Eventually the other mom tells my friend that she is the basketball coach at DS's school.  My friend having already inserted her foot into her mouth says "so why did you cut DS?"  Coach admits that he has all the skills that the boys she kept have but "you know, he's just not....tall." 

So indirectly from the horses mouth - kid cut for being skilled but short.

Why did she waste everyone's time having tryouts then?  Why not just line everyone up on Day 1 from shortest to tallest and cut when you have enough people?  That really sucks. If she is going to have that as her criteria, she shouldn't be wasting everyone's time. It is obvious the kid isn't going to grow a foot in the 1 week of tryouts. 

If you can't learn in middle school, where can you learn?  That should be the place where they are teaching about being on a team, working hard, and being competitive.  This isn't the NBA... sounds like that coach needs a little perspective.

[Mardi Gras Audrey]

As far as inclusion not building skills, I disagree. I say this as someone who had an excellent soccer coach in high school.  He was about inclusion but was also very competitive. He didn't cut anyone but we had rules for staying on the team (Must work hard, show up to practice, etc).  I had never played before and he kept me on the team and I even got to start a few games by the end of the season.  

Our team was highly competitive (We won our league and went to sections/won there a few times) while I was a student there. He coached the travel team outside of school and most of our players were from the travel team (His daughter was one of them).  He wasn't having any funny business though. It didn't matter if you were a great player if you didn't show up/had a bad attitude/displayed poor sportsmanship.  He would bench you/throw you off the team.  He also didn't put up with any drama between the girls who played for years and those of us who had never played before. He was there to make us all good players, teach us good sportsmanship, and win. These are not mutually exclusive. 


Contrast that to our cross country coach, who totally sucked as a coach.  He was focused only on winning.  Because our boys team was good (They went to state) and we didn't have enough girls to run as a team (We were 1 short of the minimum), he let the guys treat us like trash (Call us whores, throw stuff us at us, etc).  Why? Because they were going to "take him to state" and us girls weren't going to "get him anywhere".  It really killed our motivation and by the end of the season, we were spending practices walking around and gossiping rather than running (Soccer we worked our a$$ off... for ourselves and our team). 

[Shooby]

Building a team involves a lot of things.  Being the best player on the team doesn't give you any perks. You have to come to practice and work hard.  My biggest beef is that parents put kids on teams who clearly don't want to try. They show up and no matter how much you work with them, they just don't try. Over time, those kids do eventually fall away.  There are kids who start a sport and are shy or afraid of embarrassing themselves. That is different than the kids who don't try. With those kids you can bring out the athlete in them once they start learning skills and then you can bring them up to the next level.

  There are also some athletically gifted kids who are not coachable.  There is one on my daughter's team.  She has all the skills and raw talent to be a superb player.  However she has copted an attitude since day 1.  SHe is simply not coachable.  She has had multiple coaches but she isn't any better in 8th grade than she was in 5th grade.  She gets by now with brute force, but as she is moving up the ranks and the other girls are getting more skilled, she is falling behind and that doesn't work anymore.

There is a lot of POTENTIAL in a lot of kids.  But, getting to the Actual takes time.  Most kids really just don't grab on to the potential that they have.  Kids are involved in so many things that they are tired and spread so thin so as a result they never really become that good at anything.  It's fine to be involved in lots of stuff but the quality of their play and their development suffer when they are stretched too thin. 

  Right now I have an excellent group of 6th grade basketball girls.  I will take them as far as they want to go.  However, that is entirely up to them.  I coached them last year.  Last summer there was an opportunity to get into a summer league, but I could not get all the girls to commit so we didn't do it.  And, this year, there are tournaments and other opportunities so it will depend how much time they want to put into it if they want to go or not.  If not, I will conclude the season in Jan.  If they want to commit, I would gladly find opportunities for them to play year round.  It is really up to them what it means to them.
  But, the parents need to understand that other teams ARE playing summer leagues and tournaments and year round.  So, if they wish to be competitive at basketball, then it has to become a priority.  If it's just for fun, then fine but don't get your gym shorts in a knot when they get blown out a tournament by teams who play and practice year round.  You can't have it both ways.

[t-dog]

LOL Mardi Gras Audrey - that would have been the shortest tryouts in history (no pun intended!) But it would have fulfilled her goal of only tall kids.

[zibazinski]

It happened to DD in middle school volleyball. I happen to know she's an excellent volleyball player regardless of being 5'4" tall. But she was "cut" for bring too short. Painful lesson learned.

[Shooby]

One serious problem is Bad Reffing. We have struggled with this in many leagues. Where they form a league, but because it is middle schoolers, they don't want to pay a PIAA ref. Well, bad reffing causes games to get out of control.  It teaches the kids bad habits and promotes Bully Basketball or allows the bullies to dominate whatever sport it is.   There have been games where girls are literally slamming one another to the ground and the "ref" just stands by.   People fail to understand the importance of good reffing and how it keeps games safe and in control. 

[hoops902]

Nov 3, 2015 8:33:20 GMT -5 Shooby said:

One serious problem is Bad Reffing. We have struggled with this in many leagues. Where they form a league, but because it is middle schoolers, they don't want to pay a PIAA ref. Well, bad reffing causes games to get out of control.  It teaches the kids bad habits and promotes Bully Basketball or allows the bullies to dominate whatever sport it is.   There have been games where girls are literally slamming one another to the ground and the "ref" just stands by.   People fail to understand the importance of good reffing and how it keeps games safe and in control. 

I can't tell you how many times I've been approached AT the game I was going to watch for my nephews (5-6th Grade) to ask if I wanted to officiate basketball, baseball, soccer, or football.  Ummm...how do you know whether or not I know anything about the game (I know zilch about soccer rules other than the fact you can't touch it with your hands).  Also, how likely is it you're going to find someone uninvolved with the game at a game for kids that age.  Clearly I know one of the kids which makes me partial to one team or the other.

I agreed to do it once, umpiring in the field for baseball because there's very little judgment involved.  Even then I had to ask what the rules are.  Can they steal bases?  When can they leave the base to steal (because they can't lead off like real baseball).  Do they play the infield-fly rule?  Where the heck am I supposed to stand for all the different configurations of base-runners?

It's not enough to just know the rules even, you have to know how to ref (where do I stand, what are the weirdo rules your league uses, etc).

Totally agree with you that nobody wants to pay for real refs. It's pretty much enough if you can own a striped shirt.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

In this area, youth sports rely heavily on upper middle school and high school kids to ref.  They get paid pretty well (for their age):  YDS was earning $25/game as a first year ref at games for Kindergartners through Fifth Grade.  <br><br>He was asked to ref at a competitive club soccer tournament at a state-of-the-art field complex -- they were paying $50/game -- cash on the spot.  YDS wasn't available and just as well.  We know one kid who reffed the tournament and he said the parents on the sidelines were so vicious that he quit after the 2nd game.  Clearly, the tournament organizers didn't plan well for the officiating side.   <br>

[zibazinski]

Just because you're tall doesn't mean you're athletic either. My cousin was 6'2" going into 10th grade. HS was 10-12 then. The basketball coach about peed his pants with excitement. My cousin is cerebral and that's it. No athletic ability at all and zero interest in it.

[Shooby]

Well, a lot of these leagues COULD pay refs.  We were involved in a Friday night league and one of the players wound up with a broken nose due to craptastic reffing.  So, charge a bit MORE upfront and pay for real refs. My parents won't put up with the brutality of these kinds of leagues anymore. 

[Shooby]

Ugh, 4 of my 5 starters were either sick or out of town last weekend. So, I only had 5 girls to play 2 full basketball games. They showed a lot of heart and effort but we got pummeled in the second game.  Oh, well, gotta take your lumps, lol.

[Shooby]

  I went to the High School musical last night and it was awesome. But, I think we need to apply the new brand of progressive socialism to plays that parents are now trying to thrust onto sports. There were at least 15 different acts. And, it isn't "fair" that one kid got to be the Lead.  Since there were 15 different acts, then there could have been 15 different kids each doing a different section as the Lead. That would only be "fair".  Since so many people expect equal playing time now, no matter how undeserved or unearned, then let's do the same to arts/ music. Why should one kid get a solo and not everyone?

[t-dog]

Shooby hope that wasn't directed at me. My kiddo though cut from the team has been to every game to cheer on those who did make it even though he knows he is a better player than several of them. He has also been at the court practicing almost daily for next years try outs. This weekend he decided he should work on his right handed ball handling skills (remember he's a lefty). Watching him walk down the street towards the courts dribbling the ball between his legs with each step and never once missing made me wonder why he thinks his ball handling skills need work. But, at least he is trying to improve for next year.

[Shooby]

Nov 16, 2015 13:52:13 GMT -5 t-dog said:

Shooby hope that wasn't directed at me. My kiddo though cut from the team has been to every game to cheer on those who did make it even though he knows he is a better player than several of them. He has also been at the court practicing almost daily for next years try outs. This weekend he decided he should work on his right handed ball handling skills (remember he's a lefty). Watching him walk down the street towards the courts dribbling the ball between his legs with each step and never once missing made me wonder why he thinks his ball handling skills need work. But, at least he is trying to improve for next year.

No. It wasn't directed at you or anyone in particular.