OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 27, 2015 11:32:57 GMT -5
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the issue was supposed to be. Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 27, 2015 11:50:07 GMT -5
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the issue was supposed to be. Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things. So your response to your thread title, 'What Is Your Opinion Of This Obama Appointment?' is "Mine would be you have to be kidding.". In Oldcoyote language that means "I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections.." Right. On any other board, you would be called a troll.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 27, 2015 13:41:28 GMT -5
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the issue was supposed to be. Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things. So, am I to take from this post, OldCoyote, that you're baiting other posters into board battles? Please read our CoC; particularly, the part about baiting. Baiting other posters into a battle is a breach of our CoC. With that said, I'm confident you won't do this again. Your real opinions are welcome here. Your baiting posts are not. Thanks. mmhmm, Administrator
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Sept 27, 2015 13:58:31 GMT -5
Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things. So your response to your thread title, 'What Is Your Opinion Of This Obama Appointment?' is "Mine would be you have to be kidding.". In Oldcoyote language that means "I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections.." Right. On any other board, you would be called a troll. On this one too.
And for the record, what most of us defend is truth and accuracy. Try bringing some.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 27, 2015 14:00:01 GMT -5
My question is why the appointment falls to Pres. Obama. It seems like an entry-level staff position to assist a senior bureaucrat.
It's evidently his prerogative to make the appointment, which begs the question of just how many positions his office is entitled to create and/or fill. Just as importantly: Is Ms. Noor going to be out the door with the transit to a new administration in 2016?
How involved is he in the appointment process?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 27, 2015 14:17:08 GMT -5
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the issue was supposed to be. Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman You did not disappoint me. questioning YOU is not the same thing as defending HER. at all. i still don't think you are measuring our response right.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Sept 27, 2015 14:22:50 GMT -5
Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman You did not disappoint me. questioning YOU is not the same thing as defending HER. at all. i still don't think you are measuring our response right. Very true on both counts.
I can't imagine it would take much of a visionary or a thinker to at least get those two things right....
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mmhmm
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It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible.
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 27, 2015 14:57:48 GMT -5
Let's cut it out with the "troll" accusations, veiled or not, please. Thanks.
mmhmm, Administrator
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 27, 2015 15:37:29 GMT -5
My question is why the appointment falls to Pres. Obama. It seems like an entry-level staff position to assist a senior bureaucrat. It's evidently his prerogative to make the appointment, which begs the question of just how many positions his office is entitled to create and/or fill. Just as importantly: Is Ms. Noor going to be out the door with the transit to a new administration in 2016? How involved is he in the appointment process? From the Memphis Business Journal link within the Snopes link and article previously posted: "They will work in the Obama administration until January 2017." Also from the the Memphis Business Journal link: "According to Meta Laabs, director of Student Affairs at the U of M, most of these interviews are usually reserved for Ivy League schools. "A team of six people, including Leadership Programs Coordinator Jon Campbell, helped coach the University's six recommended students for their trip to D.C. Three of the students were given offers. Laabs said this is possibly the highest success rate of any university." If one school alone sent six for the interview process, I imagine there are quite a few college grads from colleges and universities across the country vying for what few positions there are. Obama's involvement? Probably none. Someone in the White House makes the announcement for him.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 27, 2015 16:02:51 GMT -5
Obama's involvement? Probably none. Someone in the White House makes the announcement for him. That would be my guess too. OldCoyote: Sorry to join in on the kicking-you-while-you're-down party, but I agree with the others that nothing strongly contraindicates Ms. Noor for a USCIS staff position. Is she sympathetic towards Islamic immigrants? Probably. Will she have any meaningful influence on how potential immigrants are selected for admission? Possibly in future, if she rises through the ranks. Is more sympathy for Islamic immigrants a bad thing? Debatable. It would be interesting to look at the religious and ethnic makeup of Pres. Obama's appointments (i.e. those of his administration) in aggregate versus the religious/ethnic makeup of liberal arts graduates. I have no doubt that like all administrations, his is stacked with officials favouring his views. But that doesn't necessarily translate into disproportionate hiring by religion or ethnicity. I doubt there's a shortage of white Christian guys eager to open wide America's borders with amnesty for all.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 27, 2015 16:32:22 GMT -5
Obama's involvement? Probably none. Someone in the White House makes the announcement for him. That would be my guess too. OldCoyote: Sorry to join in on the kicking-you-while-you're-down party, but I agree with the others that nothing strongly contraindicates Ms. Noor for a USCIS staff position. Is she sympathetic towards Islamic immigrants? Probably. Will she have any meaningful influence on how potential immigrants are selected for admission? Possibly in future, if she rises through the ranks. Is more sympathy for Islamic immigrants a bad thing? Debatable. It would be interesting to look at the religious and ethnic makeup of Pres. Obama's appointments (i.e. those of his administration) in aggregate versus the religious/ethnic makeup of liberal arts graduates. I have no doubt that like all administrations, his is stacked with officials favouring his views. But that doesn't necessarily translate into disproportionate hiring by religion or ethnicity. I doubt there's a shortage of white Christian guys eager to open wide America's borders with amnesty for all. I doubt she will rise within the ranks in this field of government as her position ends when the new president begins his/her term in January, 2017. I would consider her level of importance equal to or one step above a government intern.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Sept 27, 2015 16:42:50 GMT -5
Yeah, but some girls can make a career off of that....
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 27, 2015 16:43:26 GMT -5
That would be my guess too. OldCoyote: Sorry to join in on the kicking-you-while-you're-down party, but I agree with the others that nothing strongly contraindicates Ms. Noor for a USCIS staff position. Is she sympathetic towards Islamic immigrants? Probably. Will she have any meaningful influence on how potential immigrants are selected for admission? Possibly in future, if she rises through the ranks. Is more sympathy for Islamic immigrants a bad thing? Debatable. It would be interesting to look at the religious and ethnic makeup of Pres. Obama's appointments (i.e. those of his administration) in aggregate versus the religious/ethnic makeup of liberal arts graduates. I have no doubt that like all administrations, his is stacked with officials favouring his views. But that doesn't necessarily translate into disproportionate hiring by religion or ethnicity. I doubt there's a shortage of white Christian guys eager to open wide America's borders with amnesty for all. I doubt she will rise within the ranks in this field of government as her position ends when the new president begins his/her term in January, 2017. I would consider her level of importance equal to or one step above a government intern. it is amazing how far an intern can go.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Sept 27, 2015 17:06:09 GMT -5
I'm honestly still trying to figure out what the issue was supposed to be. Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman. You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things. I'm not buying your backtracking to cover up the fact that you had no idea what you're talking about. This isn't the first time you've done this. Why can't you just own it, like a big boy?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 27, 2015 17:07:25 GMT -5
Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman. You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things. I'm not buying your backtracking to cover up the fact that you had no idea what you're talking about. This isn't the first time you've done this. Why can't you just own it, like a big boy? You know it.I know it. He knows it. Everyone knows it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 17:17:51 GMT -5
Sometimes it is hard to admit a mistake if you know you are going to be ridiculed or insulted for it, not that I am saying anyone made a mistake. There are quite a few posters here who do not admit they have been wrong.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Sept 27, 2015 17:23:34 GMT -5
Ridicule and insults are FAR more likely to follow a blind insistence and double-down on the original mistake. Pretty much everybody respects an admission of error.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Sept 27, 2015 17:24:52 GMT -5
Need some music
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 17:41:19 GMT -5
Ridicule and insults are FAR more likely to follow a blind insistence and double-down on the original mistake. Pretty much everybody respects an admission of error. I agree with the first sentence not the second. I think many posters see an admission of error as blood and attack. And they use that admission elsewhere to attack. There are quite a few posters here who are not at all interested in debate or hearing ideas they disagree with other then to insult. My opinion, fwiw.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Sept 27, 2015 18:06:12 GMT -5
Ridicule and insults are FAR more likely to follow a blind insistence and double-down on the original mistake. Pretty much everybody respects an admission of error. I agree with the first sentence not the second. I think many posters see an admission of error as blood and attack. And they use that admission elsewhere to attack. There are quite a few posters here who are not at all interested in debate or hearing ideas they disagree with other then to insult. My opinion, fwiw. I don't see that much but will stipulate that it could be a possibility by those who are less confident in their positions. My thought is that if I disagree with someone and point out his error, and he admits it, my job is done. There is really nowhere left to go with it, other than to just be a jerk. That serves no purpose, other than possibly poisoning future exchanges (which is kind of counterproductive.)
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 27, 2015 18:59:00 GMT -5
Actually RichardInTenn, I don't have much problem with her either, she has apparently worked very hard, made the right connections. The was just a little experiment to see how far my friends "on the other side of the fence" to defend this young woman. You did not disappoint me. I knew that this was nothing more than an "Embellishment of the truth" just like you read on almost every resume'. oldcoyote is feeling really good, Just think you only have a week of this before I go back to work. I thought the part of making fun of oldcoyote was good. the blood in the water would draw you in. I was going to question her father immigration status, you know just over which border did he sneak over. On to other things. I'm not buying your backtracking to cover up the fact that you had no idea what you're talking about. This isn't the first time you've done this. Why can't you just own it, like a big boy? While that's one way to look at this whole exchange, it's not the only way. It's never, IMO, good to assume we know why someone did something. We might think we know bu the one who really knows is the one who did the something.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 27, 2015 19:20:16 GMT -5
Sometimes it is hard to admit a mistake if you know you are going to be ridiculed or insulted for it, not that I am saying anyone made a mistake. There are quite a few posters here who do not admit they have been wrong. quite a few? that is an understatement. i have counted less than five that HAVE.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 27, 2015 19:21:37 GMT -5
Ridicule and insults are FAR more likely to follow a blind insistence and double-down on the original mistake. Pretty much everybody respects an admission of error. I agree with the first sentence not the second. I think many posters see an admission of error as blood and attack. And they use that admission elsewhere to attack. There are quite a few posters here who are not at all interested in debate or hearing ideas they disagree with other then to insult. My opinion, fwiw. you should try it sometime. i have found just the opposite. with the exception of one poster who seems incapable of letting it go.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 28, 2015 8:17:04 GMT -5
Obama's involvement? Probably none. Someone in the White House makes the announcement for him. That would be my guess too. OldCoyote: Sorry to join in on the kicking-you-while-you're-down party, but I agree with the others that nothing strongly contraindicates Ms. Noor for a USCIS staff position. Is she sympathetic towards Islamic immigrants? Probably. Will she have any meaningful influence on how potential immigrants are selected for admission? Possibly in future, if she rises through the ranks. Is more sympathy for Islamic immigrants a bad thing? Debatable. It would be interesting to look at the religious and ethnic makeup of Pres. Obama's appointments (i.e. those of his administration) in aggregate versus the religious/ethnic makeup of liberal arts graduates. I have no doubt that like all administrations, his is stacked with officials favouring his views. But that doesn't necessarily translate into disproportionate hiring by religion or ethnicity. I doubt there's a shortage of white Christian guys eager to open wide America's borders with amnesty for all. Virgil, I was just feeling a little ornery that morning , I just wanted to see how far some would go, to defend her, A little over thirty years ago I was employed by the University of Colorado Med Center in Denver Colorado, The amusement even then was, 1. If your a woman. 2. If you were black. 3. If you had a doctorate degree. They would rocket through the ranks, whether or not they had any experience,or even if they were not any good at their job. Oldcoyote also benefited from some of this, there were over a thousand candidates for the position that I was hired, I only made through this because of coaching from the inside. The coaching was to get past the HR dept. It was narrowed down to four candidates, from which the Dept. Head could chose. He knew me as an outside contractor. Yea, I was that good, I will also point out that it was oldcoyote arrogance that caused him to leave that job. I can look back, say that may not have been one of my best choices in life.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 28, 2015 11:31:29 GMT -5
That would be my guess too. OldCoyote: Sorry to join in on the kicking-you-while-you're-down party, but I agree with the others that nothing strongly contraindicates Ms. Noor for a USCIS staff position. Is she sympathetic towards Islamic immigrants? Probably. Will she have any meaningful influence on how potential immigrants are selected for admission? Possibly in future, if she rises through the ranks. Is more sympathy for Islamic immigrants a bad thing? Debatable. It would be interesting to look at the religious and ethnic makeup of Pres. Obama's appointments (i.e. those of his administration) in aggregate versus the religious/ethnic makeup of liberal arts graduates. I have no doubt that like all administrations, his is stacked with officials favouring his views. But that doesn't necessarily translate into disproportionate hiring by religion or ethnicity. I doubt there's a shortage of white Christian guys eager to open wide America's borders with amnesty for all. Virgil, I was just feeling a little ornery that morning , I just wanted to see how far some would go, to defend her, A little over thirty years ago I was employed by the University of Colorado Med Center in Denver Colorado, The amusement even then was, 1. If your a woman. 2. If you were black. 3. If you had a doctorate degree. They would rocket through the ranks, whether or not they had any experience,or even if they were not any good at their job. Oldcoyote also benefited from some of this, there were over a thousand candidates for the position that I was hired, I only made through this because of coaching from the inside. The coaching was to get past the HR dept. It was narrowed down to four candidates, from which the Dept. Head could chose. He knew me as an outside contractor. Yea, I was that good, I will also point out that it was oldcoyote arrogance that caused him to leave that job. I can look back, say that may not have been one of my best choices in life. I don't like Affirmative Action or the idea behind it any more than you do. I consider it unjust, inefficient, racist (true racism, per the definition), instrumental in fostering resentment for minorities, and anachronistic. It would be wonderful to live in a world where we could be certain Ms. Noor was hired for being the most qualified candidate and not because she's a dark-skinned Islamic woman who grew up abroad. We could celebrate her appointment and wish her well without skepticism. Unfortunately, we don't live in such a world. Her belonging to various minority groups may well have contributed to her appointment. Having said this, we have no evidence that she was afforded any kind of preference. I don't know what the statistical likelihood of preferential appointments is, but I don't believe it's so high that Ms. Noor doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. She does have first-hand experience with the immigration system (this falls into the category of what is called "lived experience", which is counted as an asset, especially for employment in the social services), a degree from a reputable university, and good academic credentials. It behooves us to assume she's the most qualified person for the job, hope she knows what she's doing, and wish her well. "Do unto others, ..." This is what I'd have others do unto me in these circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 11:39:16 GMT -5
The job site I worked on had to hire section 3 (?) workers. They were people from the neighborhood. I do not think government should be able to force affirmative action. This was a local government job, a new police station. I kind of liked the idea that they had to hire locals, so am conflicted.
I think more private business should voluntarily use affirmative action. I actually think further then that, I think minority owned business should hire more minorities if they want to help them. I think the civil rights laws prevent much of that and it has been detrimental to many minorities. Specifically I read about the decline of locally owned banks and how that hurt blacks. Different sets of people have different needs that can easily be seen by race many times, but it is against the law to specifically address that as a business owner who wants to help those of the same color.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 28, 2015 11:49:06 GMT -5
The job site I worked on had to hire section 3 (?) workers. They were people from the neighborhood. I do not think government should be able to force affirmative action. This was a local government job, a new police station. I kind of liked the idea that they had to hire locals, so am conflicted. I think more private business should voluntarily use affirmative action. I actually think further then that, I think minority owned business should hire more minorities if they want to help them. I think the civil rights laws prevent much of that and it has been detrimental to many minorities. Specifically I read about the decline of locally owned banks and how that hurt blacks. Different sets of people have different needs that can easily be seen by race many times, but it is against the law to specifically address that as a business owner who wants to help those of the same color. Minority owned businesses cannot hire more minorities (or even non-minorities for that matter) if minority owned businesses are not getting business.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2015 11:58:53 GMT -5
The job site I worked on had to hire section 3 (?) workers. They were people from the neighborhood. I do not think government should be able to force affirmative action. This was a local government job, a new police station. I kind of liked the idea that they had to hire locals, so am conflicted. I think more private business should voluntarily use affirmative action. I actually think further then that, I think minority owned business should hire more minorities if they want to help them. I think the civil rights laws prevent much of that and it has been detrimental to many minorities. Specifically I read about the decline of locally owned banks and how that hurt blacks. Different sets of people have different needs that can easily be seen by race many times, but it is against the law to specifically address that as a business owner who wants to help those of the same color. Minority owned businesses cannot hire more minorities (or even non-minorities for that matter) if minority owned businesses are not getting business. Where I live there was a bit of a movement to buy local. I think the same thing would work to an extent for buy black or buy hispanic or whatever. I think black leaders instead of focusing on what is best for them personally could pressure large companies to hire blacks in the same percentage as they are customers, not hired for low level jobs but for executive or mid-level jobs. Maybe it would not work, maybe it would, maybe it would work a little bit, who knows. I think the idea would be rejected as racist now. Just part of the world we live in where people cannnot help except in approved ways.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 28, 2015 12:25:41 GMT -5
Minority owned businesses cannot hire more minorities (or even non-minorities for that matter) if minority owned businesses are not getting business. Where I live there was a bit of a movement to buy local. I think the same thing would work to an extent for buy black or buy hispanic or whatever. I think black leaders instead of focusing on what is best for them personally could pressure large companies to hire blacks in the same percentage as they are customers, not hired for low level jobs but for executive or mid-level jobs. Maybe it would not work, maybe it would, maybe it would work a little bit, who knows. I think the idea would be rejected as racist now. Just part of the world we live in where people cannnot help except in approved ways. Buying local is always a good idea-be it a local minority business or a small hardware store competing against a super-sized Walmart. As for black leaders personally putting pressure on large companies to hire more black employees in the same percentage as their customer base, kind of runs right into a different type of the EEOC/Affirmative Action scenario. But instead of the EEOC encouraging businesses to hire and utilize more females and minorities, you have black leaders pressuring white-majority businesses to hire more minorities to reflect the racial makeup of their customers. It would be great if they did, but there is no financial pressure to the business to do what may be the right thing to do, especially if the business is outside of a minority majority neighborhood/area. As for not hiring minorities to fill not low level jobs but mid-level and executive positions, well just about everyone started at the bottom and worked themselves up when possible. Again, hiring minorities for mid-level and executive positions just because they are a minority starts getting into Affirmative Action again.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Sept 28, 2015 12:27:16 GMT -5
I don't like Affirmative Action or the idea behind it any more than you do. I consider it unjust, inefficient, racist (true racism, per the definition), instrumental in fostering resentment for minorities, and anachronistic. It would be wonderful to live in a world where we could be certain Ms. Noor was hired for being the most qualified candidate and not because she's a dark-skinned Islamic woman who grew up abroad. We could celebrate her appointment and wish her well without skepticism. Unfortunately, we don't live in such a world. Her belonging to various minority groups may well have contributed to her appointment. Having said this, we have no evidence that she was afforded any kind of preference. I don't know what the statistical likelihood of preferential appointments is, but I don't believe it's so high that Ms. Noor doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. She does have first-hand experience with the immigration system (this falls into the category of what is called "lived experience", which is counted as an asset, especially for employment in the social services), a degree from a reputable university, and good academic credentials. It behooves us to assume she's the most qualified person for the job, hope she knows what she's doing, and wish her well. "Do unto others, ..." This is what I'd have others do unto me in these circumstances. I would argue that that would make her a bit more qualified to understand the nuances of our immigration system than someone who is native born. As with any organization, you have to start somewhere. I think people who have had to go through a process are better suited to identify weaknesses and suggest improvements. Maybe we should get more people in different areas who are representative of those whom those areas serve.
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