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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 15:08:17 GMT -5
There was never a question on whether or not soldiers could do something. In every situation there is always a choice. One of the things that makes a hero is making the tough choice. People were charged with war crimes after WW2 for following orders. I am not suggesting the soldiers doing nothing are war criminals. I am saying that following those orders is wrong. Acquiescing to orders might be understandable, but sometimes it is also chargable.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 22, 2015 15:27:08 GMT -5
There was never a question on whether or not soldiers could do something. In every situation there is always a choice. One of the things that makes a hero is making the tough choice. People were charged with war crimes after WW2 for following orders. I am not suggesting the soldiers doing nothing are war criminals. I am saying that following those orders is wrong. Acquiescing to orders might be understandable, but sometimes it is also chargable. I think everyone from the President on down that gave the order to support and defend the tribal warlords pedophile lifestyle is not only a coward, but a war criminal- and accessory to child rape.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 19:08:00 GMT -5
There's "can" (has the physical ability to) and "can" (has the authority/right to). Sometimes the two do NOT coexist. This is a case where they don't. (unfortunately)
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 22, 2015 19:26:57 GMT -5
There's "can" (has the physical ability to) and "can" (has the authority/right to). Sometimes the two do NOT coexist. This is a case where they don't. (unfortunately) Yeah- there's a higher law. I like the precedent set at Nuremberg and I hope it will be followed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 19:38:58 GMT -5
There's "can" (has the physical ability to) and "can" (has the authority/right to). Sometimes the two do NOT coexist. This is a case where they don't. (unfortunately) Yeah- there's a higher law. I like the precedent set at Nuremberg and I hope it will be followed. I'm good with that precedent as well: A soldier cannot be excused for himself COMMITTING atrocious acts because he was ordered to. That was the precedent to which you were referring... right? It doesn't apply here.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 19:41:00 GMT -5
Yeah- there's a higher law. I like the precedent set at Nuremberg and I hope it will be followed. I'm good with that precedent as well: A soldier cannot be excused for himself COMMITTING atrocious acts because he was ordered to. That was the precedent to which you were referring... right? It doesn't apply here. Sitting there listening to a child get raped and doing nothing is an atrocious act.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 22, 2015 19:59:51 GMT -5
Utter hogwash, as usual! What a ridiculous premise! I really have to feel rather sorry for any media that finds it necessary to stoop to this level. I feel sorry for those who propagate this garbage, too.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 22, 2015 21:45:33 GMT -5
The important thing to know is that all countries, people and cultures are equally valid, and it's wrong to judge them just because they've chosen different beliefs from our flawed system. And just how does this work out when these same people immigrate to the U.S.A.? Are those "valid cultural differences" still be allowed to be perceived as okay and not to be judged by our" flawed system"?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 21:46:25 GMT -5
I'm good with that precedent as well: A soldier cannot be excused for himself COMMITTING atrocious acts because he was ordered to. That was the precedent to which you were referring... right? It doesn't apply here. Sitting there listening to a child get raped and doing nothing is an atrocious act. Nope. Doing nothing is not "an act". It's a lack of action. Can it be "atrocious"? Maybe. Again, the precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 22, 2015 22:07:36 GMT -5
Utter hogwash, as usual! What a ridiculous premise! I really have to feel rather sorry for any media that finds it necessary to stoop to this level. I feel sorry for those who propagate this garbage, too. I feel sorry for Salon and other apologists for pedophiles. We had a- how long was it, a month?- long discussion about what a horrible person Josh Duggar is, but it was only because he wasn't the right kind of pedophile.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 22, 2015 22:10:29 GMT -5
Sitting there listening to a child get raped and doing nothing is an atrocious act. Nope. Doing nothing is not "an act". It's a lack of action. Can it be "atrocious"? Maybe. Again, the precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here. Tell that to the bookkeeper of Auschwitz, and this woman.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 22, 2015 22:12:17 GMT -5
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 22, 2015 22:33:15 GMT -5
It seems the "“Acceptance” and relativism are essential tools of the partisan Left," were also the essential tools of the partisan right as coalition troops, including U.S. troops at Forward Operating Base Wilson in Afghanistan in 2008 were casting a blind eye to the rape of boys too. Who was president of the U.S. back in October, 2008? Consider this from October 8, 2008: Rape of boys in Afghanistan sparks inquiry The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership. BY THE OTTAWA CITIZEN OCTOBER 4, 2008 The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership. Military police have also launched an investigation into the same incidents. The issue surfaced in the summer after media reports detailed soldiers' concerns about sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghan personnel. In June, the Toronto Star reported that in late 2006 a Canadian soldier had heard an Afghan soldier raping a young boy at one of the outposts near Kandahar. The soldier later saw the injuries the boy sustained, including seeing his lower intestines falling out of his body, a sign of trauma from anal rape. In addition, military chaplain Jean Johns came forward to complain that Canadian soldiers were ordered by their commanding officers in Afghanistan to ignore such incidents of sexual assault. That information was based on claims made to the chaplain by soldiers. Other military chaplains have said they too heard similar complaints from Canadian troops. As well, soldiers have reported that at Forward Operating Base Wilson (a U.S. troops base) in Afghanistan, it was common for Afghan police to pay boys for sex. Rape of boys in Afghanistan sparks inquiry October 4, 2008
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 22:37:08 GMT -5
Sitting there listening to a child get raped and doing nothing is an atrocious act. Nope. Doing nothing is not "an act". It's a lack of action. Can it be "atrocious"? Maybe. Again, the precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here. If you think sitting idly by while listening to men rape boys is justifiable you have a different set of values then I do. If you think "orders" is a sufficient excuse you have a different set of values then I do.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 22:39:13 GMT -5
It seems the "“Acceptance” and relativism are essential tools of the partisan Left," were also the essential tools of the partisan right as coalition troops, including U.S. troops at Forward Operating Base Wilson in Afghanistan in 2008 were casting a blind eye to the rape of boys too. Who was president of the U.S. back in October, 2008? Consider this from October 8, 2008: Rape of boys in Afghanistan sparks inquiry The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership. BY THE OTTAWA CITIZEN OCTOBER 4, 2008 The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership. Military police have also launched an investigation into the same incidents. The issue surfaced in the summer after media reports detailed soldiers' concerns about sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghan personnel. In June, the Toronto Star reported that in late 2006 a Canadian soldier had heard an Afghan soldier raping a young boy at one of the outposts near Kandahar. The soldier later saw the injuries the boy sustained, including seeing his lower intestines falling out of his body, a sign of trauma from anal rape. In addition, military chaplain Jean Johns came forward to complain that Canadian soldiers were ordered by their commanding officers in Afghanistan to ignore such incidents of sexual assault. That information was based on claims made to the chaplain by soldiers. Other military chaplains have said they too heard similar complaints from Canadian troops. As well, soldiers have reported that at Forward Operating Base Wilson (a U.S. troops base) in Afghanistan, it was common for Afghan police to pay boys for sex. Rape of boys in Afghanistan sparks inquiry October 4, 2008One more example of when you can say "Bush" or you can say "Obama" and it really doesn't matter. Why anyone prefers one over the other is beyond me.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 22, 2015 22:42:43 GMT -5
It seems the "“Acceptance” and relativism are essential tools of the partisan Left," were also the essential tools of the partisan right as coalition troops, including U.S. troops at Forward Operating Base Wilson in Afghanistan in 2008 were casting a blind eye to the rape of boys too. Who was president of the U.S. back in October, 2008? Consider this from October 8, 2008: Rape of boys in Afghanistan sparks inquiry The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership. BY THE OTTAWA CITIZEN OCTOBER 4, 2008 The Canadian Forces will launch a board of inquiry to look into allegations that soldiers' complaints about Afghan troops and police raping boys were ignored by the military leadership. Military police have also launched an investigation into the same incidents. The issue surfaced in the summer after media reports detailed soldiers' concerns about sexual abuse of boys at the hands of Afghan personnel. In June, the Toronto Star reported that in late 2006 a Canadian soldier had heard an Afghan soldier raping a young boy at one of the outposts near Kandahar. The soldier later saw the injuries the boy sustained, including seeing his lower intestines falling out of his body, a sign of trauma from anal rape. In addition, military chaplain Jean Johns came forward to complain that Canadian soldiers were ordered by their commanding officers in Afghanistan to ignore such incidents of sexual assault. That information was based on claims made to the chaplain by soldiers. Other military chaplains have said they too heard similar complaints from Canadian troops. As well, soldiers have reported that at Forward Operating Base Wilson (a U.S. troops base) in Afghanistan, it was common for Afghan police to pay boys for sex. Rape of boys in Afghanistan sparks inquiry October 4, 2008One more example of when you can say "Bush" or you can say "Obama" and it really doesn't matter. Why anyone prefers one over the other is beyond me. To some, it matters greatly. Conservatives good-liberals bad.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 22:48:27 GMT -5
One more example of when you can say "Bush" or you can say "Obama" and it really doesn't matter. Why anyone prefers one over the other is beyond me. To some, it matters greatly. Conservatives good-liberals bad. Both have the same policy on Afghanis raping boys. Hillary won't be any different. I think most of the GOP candidates will be fine with it. I don't know what the point of the wars is, but I know it isnt about making the world a better place or making the middle east a better place for those living there. eta: I dont even know what "conservative" and "liberal" mean anymore. Neither word means what I thought they did back when I first learned them in the 70's and 80's.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 22:48:30 GMT -5
Nope. Doing nothing is not "an act". It's a lack of action. Can it be "atrocious"? Maybe. Again, the precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here. Tell that to the bookkeeper of Auschwitz, and this woman. The bookkeeper's "act" was keeping the books. That's a physical, real act that furthers the activity as a whole. As to the woman: By serving as the Commandant's radio operator, she used (an act) the radio to facilitate the functions of the camp. The precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 22, 2015 22:51:46 GMT -5
Utter hogwash, as usual! What a ridiculous premise! I really have to feel rather sorry for any media that finds it necessary to stoop to this level. I feel sorry for those who propagate this garbage, too. I feel sorry for Salon and other apologists for pedophiles. We had a- how long was it, a month?- long discussion about what a horrible person Josh Duggar is, but it was only because he wasn't the right kind of pedophile. I don't read Salon. I don't read any of the super-biased sites. I don't find doing so of any worth. It doesn't increase my knowledge by even a smidgen. It just makes me as big a fool as the site I'm wasting my time on.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 22:52:08 GMT -5
Tell that to the bookkeeper of Auschwitz, and this woman. The bookkeeper's "act" was keeping the books. That's a physical, real act that furthers the activity as a whole. As to the woman: By serving as the Commandant's radio operator, she used (an act) the radio to facilitate the functions of the camp. The precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here. Is issuing an order an act? The soldiers are under orders not to interfere.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 22:54:26 GMT -5
Nope. Doing nothing is not "an act". It's a lack of action. Can it be "atrocious"? Maybe. Again, the precedent set at Nuremberg doesn't apply here. If you think sitting idly by while listening to men rape boys is justifiable you have a different set of values then I do. If you think "orders" is a sufficient excuse you have a different set of values then I do. Sitting idly by, on their own free time, not there as US soldiers, maybe on vacation as US citizens... I'd agree with you. "Orders" are not an excuse. They are a justifiable reason. If you think saving one or two innocents at the probable cost of thousands of innocents soon after is fine... YOU have a different set of values than I do. I understand how to weigh the greater good against the lesser good when only one can be chosen... do you?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 23:00:00 GMT -5
If you think sitting idly by while listening to men rape boys is justifiable you have a different set of values then I do. If you think "orders" is a sufficient excuse you have a different set of values then I do. Sitting idly by, on their own free time, not there as US soldiers, maybe on vacation as US citizens... I'd agree with you. "Orders" are not an excuse. They are a justifiable reason. If you think saving one or two innocents at the probable cost of thousands of innocents soon after is fine... YOU have a different set of values than I do. I understand how to weigh the greater good against the lesser good when only one can be chosen... do you? there is no "Probable" it is a definite cost of thousand of innocent lives what we are doing over there. I think we have probably destroyed tens of thousands of innocent lives with our bombs and drone killing and what not. There is no question but I have a very different set of values then you, on this, on what rights are and where they come from, on what responsibilities are, on a whole host of things.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2015 11:26:16 GMT -5
Utter hogwash, as usual! What a ridiculous premise! I really have to feel rather sorry for any media that finds it necessary to stoop to this level. I feel sorry for those who propagate this garbage, too. I feel sorry for Salon and other apologists for pedophiles. We had a- how long was it, a month?- long discussion about what a horrible person Josh Duggar is, but it was only because he wasn't the right kind of pedophile. humanizing criminals is not the same thing as apologizing for them AT ALL. they are, in fact, human beings. wretched ones, but human beings. it is a measure of our humanity if we treat them better than they treat us.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 23, 2015 11:28:02 GMT -5
Sitting idly by, on their own free time, not there as US soldiers, maybe on vacation as US citizens... I'd agree with you. "Orders" are not an excuse. They are a justifiable reason. If you think saving one or two innocents at the probable cost of thousands of innocents soon after is fine... YOU have a different set of values than I do. I understand how to weigh the greater good against the lesser good when only one can be chosen... do you? there is no "Probable" it is a definite cost of thousand of innocent lives what we are doing over there. I think we have probably destroyed tens of thousands of innocent lives with our bombs and drone killing and what not. There is no question but I have a very different set of values then you, on this, on what rights are and where they come from, on what responsibilities are, on a whole host of things. you're right. probable is not the right term. PREDICTABLE was the right term. Bush should be charged for war crimes. so should Obama.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2015 11:55:37 GMT -5
The important thing to know is that all countries, people and cultures are equally valid, and it's wrong to judge them just because they've chosen different beliefs from our flawed system. I could not disagree with this statement more. If those beliefs lead to the inhumane treatment of people we have the absolute right to judge them as flawed. We make judgements all the time. It is why we have laws and the only way to have a civilized society.
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Post by midjd on Sept 23, 2015 14:34:58 GMT -5
And just how does this work out when these same people immigrate to the U.S.A.? Are those "valid cultural differences" still be allowed to be perceived as okay and not to be judged by our" flawed system"? umm, my comment was dripping with vitriolic sarcasm.
There is such a thing as "better", and this multicultural BS makes me sick.
That's not to say that there is only one "right way", but there are some that are wrong.
We need to aks people who come here to assimilate to values. I think keeping a cultural identity is great, but you've got to accept American values.
Did I miss the part where this was happening on American soil? I mean except for Jerry Sandusky, Subway Jared, etc. etc. etc.
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 23, 2015 14:59:23 GMT -5
Didn't some underling come in while a young boy was being attacked in the shower in the Penn State debacle? No one crucified him. Well, I did, but I was brought up as being wrong about it that it was someone else's fault. I consider these "people " barely civilized and cannot imagine why we fight those cowards wars for them. Seeing the able bodied cowards fleeing their country instead of fighting for it does not make me feel any differently. How surprising that even the police are sick mo fo's. Not.
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 23, 2015 17:43:35 GMT -5
Didn't some underling come in while a young boy was being attacked in the shower in the Penn State debacle? No one crucified him. Well, I did, but I was brought up as being wrong about it that it was someone else's fault. I consider these "people " barely civilized and cannot imagine why we fight those cowards wars for them. Seeing the able bodied cowards fleeing their country instead of fighting for it does not make me feel any differently. How surprising that even the police are sick mo fo's. Not.Highlighted section: We are not fighting their war. We were not asked there by anyone. We went there because of perceived (correct or incorrect) wrongs against America.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2015 2:35:56 GMT -5
And just how does this work out when these same people immigrate to the U.S.A.? Are those "valid cultural differences" still be allowed to be perceived as okay and not to be judged by our" flawed system"? umm, my comment was dripping with vitriolic sarcasm.
There is such a thing as "better", and this multicultural BS makes me sick.
That's not to say that there is only one "right way", but there are some that are wrong.
We need to aks people who come here to assimilate to values. I think keeping a cultural identity is great, but you've got to accept American values.
I am so relieved to hear that. I kind of wondered but really was not sure without the sarc button .
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 24, 2015 5:30:32 GMT -5
I've never served in the Armed Forces but, as I understand it, if you're given an order by a superior officer(s) you have to obey that order or, possibly, face a court martial. Soldiers don't get to decide which orders they're going to follow and which they're not going to follow, do they? Since they've been told not to interfere, am I wrong to assume some pretty strong consequences could result if one, or more of them disobeyed the orders they were given? What would happen if several decided to interfere, despite orders not to do so, and one or more of them were killed or badly injured? This is a serious question from someone who really doesn't have a clue what the answer might be. This is a common misperception. The UCMJ requires you to follow all the lawful orders of the officers above you. You absolutely can refuse to follow unlawful orders. You might end up defending your actions in a court martial, but there's no requirement in the UCMJ that you have to follow all orders period. As to looking the other way while listening to children being raped, I wouldn't have done it and I'm fairly confident a jury of my military peers wouldn't have punished me for it. My commander might have made my life hell, but there are avenues in the military to report abuses of power and stuff. They aren't always just or quick, but there are ways to lodge formal complaints about things like retalitory action for defying your chain of command. Honestly I'm surprised they've been able to get so many soldiers to go along with this. I don't give a fuck what it does to our political relationship with the puppet government we installed there, I couldn't sit within earshot of children being raped and do nothing. Just straight up can't do it. Thanks for the answer. Like you, I can't imagine being able to endure listening to something like that and being unable, much less unwilling, to take some kind of action. Not having any experience with the military it seemed to me there had to be some awful fate hanging over these soldiers' heads. If there isn't, I don't know what to think.
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