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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 7:44:40 GMT -5
I think most agree that machinery will be taking more and more jobs in the future. Our old educations system is set up to make people capable of being productive employees in the old economy. How should our education system change if my premise is correct.
My premise is the education system is set up to train people to do basic jobs that soon will be done by machines. They are being educated in part for a world that will no longer exist.
I think education should be much more decentralized such that we can see what works and what doesn't.
I thought this was appropriate for this forum and not current events because it is about money and how to educate those we love. I wanted to hear the views of someone who doesnt read current events. If it is more appropriate for another forum please just close this thread. Thank you.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Sept 20, 2015 7:50:12 GMT -5
I am not following. Maybe your education was different from mine, but I didn't get any employment or job preparation in school. School taught me how to learn, read, write, some history, science, literature and math.
I learned how to do my job on the job. It would be a stretch to say our educational system taught me how to be a productive employee.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 8:12:27 GMT -5
I am not following. Maybe your education was different from mine, but I didn't get any employment or job preparation in school. School taught me how to learn, read, write, some history, science, literature and math. I learned how to do my job on the job. It would be a stretch to say our educational system taught me how to be a productive employee. I went to school Monday to Friday, regular hours. I was given assignments and evaluated on how I did them. I was told what to do and when to have it done. I was not given free ranging projects that ended where I wanted to go. Traditional school is very much designed to match traditional work. I knew how to read, write and basic math by elementary school. |
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 20, 2015 8:23:26 GMT -5
I think most agree that machinery will be taking more and more jobs in the future. Our old educations system is set up to make people capable of being productive employees in the old economy. How should our education system change if my premise is correct. My premise is the education system is set up to train people to do basic jobs that soon will be done by machines. They are being educated in part for a world that will no longer exist. I think education should be much more decentralized such that we can see what works and what doesn't. I thought this was appropriate for this forum and not current events because it is about money and how to educate those we love. I wanted to hear the views of someone who doesnt read current events. If it is more appropriate for another forum please just close this thread. Thank you. We are already facing mass unemployment that will likely be made more permanent by technology for low skilled workers. However, it is not just fast food workers being replaced by order screens and automated kitchens; there are already computers which program and troubleshoot themselves. There are cars that drive themselves which will make taxis, and most public and mass transit obsolete. I have seen an automated garage perform an oil change and rotate the tires-- all that needed to be done was the make and model had to be entered, and the car lined up on the lift. I think my prediction that my job of insurance claims adjuster will be automated for most claims. A lot of it is already done from a desk with photos supplied from the insured and pre-selected contractors. The thing that stands in the way is state licensing requirements. Deregulation can't be that far off. The insurance industry has more money than governments, and governments are going broke. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 8:30:57 GMT -5
I think most agree that machinery will be taking more and more jobs in the future. Our old educations system is set up to make people capable of being productive employees in the old economy. How should our education system change if my premise is correct. My premise is the education system is set up to train people to do basic jobs that soon will be done by machines. They are being educated in part for a world that will no longer exist. I think education should be much more decentralized such that we can see what works and what doesn't. I thought this was appropriate for this forum and not current events because it is about money and how to educate those we love. I wanted to hear the views of someone who doesnt read current events. If it is more appropriate for another forum please just close this thread. Thank you. We are already facing mass unemployment that will likely be made more permanent by technology for low skilled workers. However, it is not just fast food workers being replaced by order screens and automated kitchens; there are already computers which program and troubleshoot themselves. There are cars that drive themselves which will make taxis, and most public and mass transit obsolete. I have seen an automated garage perform an oil change and rotate the tires-- all that needed to be done was the make and model had to be entered, and the car lined up on the lift. I think my prediction that my job of insurance claims adjuster will be automated for most claims. A lot of it is already done from a desk with photos supplied from the insured and pre-selected contractors. The thing that stands in the way is state licensing requirements. Deregulation can't be that far off. The insurance industry has more money than governments, and governments are going broke. Everything you said can be views as positive. More work done by machines freeing up people's time is a good thing if we can figure out a way that the people's time is channeled productively. That is why I am asking about education. Nominally educations is set up to teach reading, writing, etc as gooddecisions suggested. But it does more then that, the system is set up to teach people how to think and that way of thinking might be limiting in the future. More and more people will not be working 8 to 5, showing up and told what to do. Education might need to start focusing more on how to self learn, and how to look outside of traditional ideas. I don't really know, so am asking what others think. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 8:44:03 GMT -5
We are getting there. I think blended programs, especially for higher grades, will become the norm.
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gooddecisions
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Post by gooddecisions on Sept 20, 2015 8:49:34 GMT -5
There are plenty of IB programs in my area that are blended. There are more choices today than there ever have been.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 8:51:00 GMT -5
We are getting there. I think blended programs, especially for higher grades, will become the norm. I was hoping you would respond, I kind of wanted more though.  I know you have a lot of experience in education and have put a lot of thought in it. Can you expand on what we are dong to be 'getting there'? I think people need to learn more on self sufficiency and self direction. I think many of the jobs where you just show up and do what you are told might be ending. With a new economy, people are going to have to learn on the fly what works and what doesn't. I think it could be a real positive if we get it right. |
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Sept 20, 2015 9:10:47 GMT -5
I think most agree that machinery will be taking more and more jobs in the future. Our old educations system is set up to make people capable of being productive employees in the old economy. How should our education system change if my premise is correct. I agree that I think the education system was originally set up to provide workers with some basic skills (read, write, do basic math) and how to 'behave' in a world that would require them to do 'repetitive mundane work' - like being a basic number cruncher accountant OR working on an assembly line OR following the rules of work no matter how mundane or not applicable to the situation (the crew can't get started until the cooler with water bottles arrives - even though it's winter and 40 degrees outside (the water is to make sure that the workers have water during the summer heat). I think the way people approached "work" was learn this thought process and skills involved with doing a specific set of things (a small part of something bigger) and you'll never have to learn how to do anything else for the rest of your life". The world doesn't work that way - and it's not exactly because "machinery" took over more and more jobs. Machinery took away the labor intensive, repetitive, manual jobs. The kind of "I do one thing and I'll do that one thing for the rest of my life, and if I'm lucky that 'one thing" will allow me to have "free time" when I'm not at work to do things that don't relate back to my "job" ".
I think more unskilled, labor intensive jobs will go away - not necessarily because a machine is doing the job - but just because the NEED/REASON for the job has gone away. Kinda like how building wagons eventually went away. The need for wheeled transportation didn't go away - but the WAY we achieved it changed.
I do think schools are attempting to teach kids how to go about the process of 'thinking' - versus simply telling the kids what to 'think'. I also think the schools are attempting to teach kids how to 'solve' problems and trying to expose the kids to as much/many experiences as they can. I don't think a basic reading/math level is enough for kids to get by on. I don't think ONLY learning about your immediate area (in terms of history, social/cultural stuff) is going to cut it either.
But, then we bump into the uncomfortable fact that not every kid is capable of learning all the stuff they need to know to get by in the modern world. I don't think motivation and perserverance alone can overcome the 'ability level' you got 'blessed with' at birth. I don't think people are lazy or truly 'stupid' or gaming the system... I think a lot of people just don't have what it takes to function in the new "knowledge based" economy... what kinds of jobs are available for them? What do we, as a society, do about the people who aren't going to be 'employed' because there aren't enough jobs to go around? Do we create "busy work" kinds of jobs?
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 20, 2015 9:46:45 GMT -5
We are getting there. I think blended programs, especially for higher grades, will become the norm. I was hoping you would respond, I kind of wanted more though. I know you have a lot of experience in education and have put a lot of thought in it. Can you expand on what we are dong to be 'getting there'? I think people need to learn more on self sufficiency and self direction. I think many of the jobs where you just show up and do what you are told might be ending. With a new economy, people are going to have to learn on the fly what works and what doesn't. I think it could be a real positive if we get it right.Actually, I think that critical thinking and problem solving skills should be taught in other places besides school. Even if the schools teach kids how to be problem solvers and critical thinkers, if the home doesn't support it, well, I'm not sure what good it will do. I was pretty appalled that at DS's 6th grade parent orientation, the teachers and and counselor spent 45 minutes explaining the idea of consequences to us parents. They told us this would be a good time to start not rescuing our kids all the time. |
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 20, 2015 10:06:44 GMT -5
I also am not convinced that in my lifetime or my kids' lifetime, that machines/automation will make a ton of jobs obsolete.
At our grocery store, they have one of the check out areas that can handle five customers at once. It's not well embraced or used. It's gotten so that I don't even like doing the self-check out hardly.
Plus, my grocery store HAS lost business because it's not very upscale. It's cheapest in town, with the most selection. But apparently folks would rather pay more money in groceries to see their check out person dressed in black dress pants and have no self-check out option.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 10:15:53 GMT -5
I also am not convinced that in my lifetime or my kids' lifetime, that machines/automation will make a ton of jobs obsolete. At our grocery store, they have one of the check out areas that can handle five customers at once. It's not well embraced or used. It's gotten so that I don't even like doing the self-check out hardly. Plus, my grocery store HAS lost business because it's not very upscale. It's cheapest in town, with the most selection. But apparently folks would rather pay more money in groceries to see their check out person dressed in black dress pants and have no self-check out option. My job, construction work, is getting more and more factory made panels where instead of me stick building a frame and glazing it on the job, the frame comes in made up completely. It still takes workers time and work to install, but soon enough it will be part of a component systyem where the walls are pre-made with chips to line up where the windows or doors go. It will take little skill to install. That is just a guess though. I like cashiers to check out with better then self-checkouts, but the time will come when rfid chips allow you to just pass through a doorway or something and you swipe your card. I would use that. Again just a guess. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 11:24:02 GMT -5
Our grocery chain just introduced hand scanners... You scan as you shop, then just PAY at self check.. I see that working much better... Although I'm not sure about honesty?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 11:25:14 GMT -5
Hickle, I'll type more when I have time/keyboard.
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ripvanwinkle
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Post by ripvanwinkle on Sept 20, 2015 13:34:37 GMT -5
The problem I see in our education system is that we teach everybody to go to college. The big brass ring. The pie in the sky dream. The fact is that only a fraction of students go to or complete college. Waste of time. Everything I've ever learned job wise was OJT -On the job.
Other countries know this and teach toward job skills. STEM programs. Science, Technology, Engineering, Math. These are job worthy skills. These can get kids jobs. In my opinion, we need to de-emphasize the need for college and get these kids skills.
Our students test scores are abysmal against other countries. The old educational system is tired not working. It need to be fixed but it won't because it's too much of a money mill.
Colleges are spewing out people year after year with useless degrees that have no chance of making it it financially in the world. Thousands of social workers and teachers each year all competing for a shrinking pot of promised gold at the end of the college rainbow.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 16:18:29 GMT -5
I envision a future in which rather than degrees, you have a portfolio at a job interview and can show both your academic and practical experience and subject/skill specific test scores. Where kids can take courses at school if they wish, or intern, or take a cert program somewhere else, or independent study something else... etc.
Most of our school districts around here offer blended options at this point. Kids can homeschool, but also come in (or online in some cases) for any class they want. Colleges offer dual enrollment. Son took a college offering this summer, is currently enrolled in an independent autocad online class, looking at an adobe course, is doing masonry intensive with his father and job shadowing local architects. In addition to core skill stuff we do at home... its going to get easier and easier to piece together appropriate /meaningful education through online and community resources. This is especially appropriate for older kids.
The issue with younger kids will be the necessity of them being physically supervised during the day... But I'm working on the idea  ... |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 16:18:47 GMT -5
There are a lot of jobs being made obsolete by automation but the automation itself creates new jobs (programmers, hardware designers, etc.) From the OP I think the issue is that the new jobs are high skill relative to the jobs that are being replaced and that the educational system is not optimized to produce highly skilled employees. Common Core is supposed to solve this problem bu it's getting a ton of backlash.  why would they replace a cheap clerking job with a higher paid programming job unless they were able to get rid of lots of cheap clerking jobs. What they are doing is replacing several low skilled jobs with one high skilled job. That leaves many people who did the low skilled jobs available for other jobs or projects or whatever. I think educations needs to be such that these people are ready for the dexterity and improvisation needed in the type economy I and many others think is coming. We can't tell them if they just follow the rules and work hard they will be fine. That works in today's schools and much of today's job force, but I predict increasingly it won't. I think part of the solution is replacing consumerism with a fuller life doing what matters to the individual person, but that is not necessarily related to education. I think people need to be able to use the internet to learn. There is so much there. I think they need to be able to decide for themselves what they need to learn to get where they want. Just a few of the things I think, for what they are worth. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 17:17:52 GMT -5
The "Singularity" is a fascinating premise, if you think there has been a lot of progress the last 100 years, the birth of AI is going to speed discoveries even more. Imagine how education will change when a person can simply upload mass textbooks of data in just a few seconds. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 18:14:02 GMT -5
But honestly do degrees really guarantee ability and proficiency?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 18:24:09 GMT -5
I asked a fellow TEACHER for a letter of recommendation once and it was unusable.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 18:46:43 GMT -5
My kids will get degrees. Because I too don't see this happening by their 'first real job'... But I think it's coming. Higher Ed is just too expensive.. With too uncertain results...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 18:55:04 GMT -5
It won't cost 100K to get? Or if it does you have hand picked what you spend that 100k on... And you would have more skill specific and outcomes examples to show.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 19:21:37 GMT -5
I doubt any two will look alike.
I guess it's not as far a stretch or me because I deal with portfolios all the time. People used to say you couldn't get IN to college without a high school diploma... But colleges have learned to and routinely assess homeschoolers by alternate means than a diploma anymore.
I also had to provide a portfolio for every teaching interview I ever had..
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 20, 2015 19:23:52 GMT -5
I also don't think we can sweep all of higher ed as being expensive. Tuition at our flagship is still 10K/year in state. We've got two more years of tuition freezes. Our flag ship is not a Yale or Harvard, but it is in the top 5 of public research institutions in the US (minimally).
If a student works a 10/hour job, part time, for four years, that's one year of tuition paid.
If parents can cash flow another 10K, that's half of your college tuition right there.
Plus, I don't know how much longer it will be available, but the CC has a program where you go to CC for two years, and then transfer to our flagship as a junior. A college degree would cost you even less...maybe even 10K less.
I don't include room and board, because that's so variable.
I think where we go wrong is teaching our kids they can go anywhere, costs be damned. Or somehow kids are entitled to go to their "dream" school. And many kids don't know a true need from a true want.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Sept 20, 2015 19:35:02 GMT -5
GS1 with tuition, fees, room, 240 meals a semester = 18K a year. This semester books = 350. So 19k total? 76k a year? This year's scholarships / grants = 19k so I'm paying pizza  / beer  / clipper cards apx 100 month. If he went to a JC without grants, he'd net 5k. (Tuition / fees drop from 8k to 1500) Do that for 2 yrs and you really come out ahead. That's GS2's game plan .... (1500 × 2) + (19k × 2) = 41k without assistance or scholarships (he won't get that) |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 19:53:25 GMT -5
I also don't think we can sweep all of higher ed as being expensive. Tuition at our flagship is still 10K/year in state. We've got two more years of tuition freezes. Our flag ship is not a Yale or Harvard, but it is in the top 5 of public research institutions in the US (minimally). If a student works a 10/hour job, part time, for four years, that's one year of tuition paid. If parents can cash flow another 10K, that's half of your college tuition right there. Plus, I don't know how much longer it will be available, but the CC has a program where you go to CC for two years, and then transfer to our flagship as a junior. A college degree would cost you even less...maybe even 10K less. I don't include room and board, because that's so variable. I think where we go wrong is teaching our kids they can go anywhere, costs be damned. Or somehow kids are entitled to go to their "dream" school. And many kids don't know a true need from a true want. isn't that just talking about the same thing we have now? That will fit some jobs in the future, but if many of them disappear, then what we need are people capable of making their own job. I was thinking we need more renaissance type learning where people can start artisan type businesses and maybe some self-sufficiency type living. Or do you see it different? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 20:17:40 GMT -5
And have you found that using a BS as a criteria has been widely successful in the screens process?
I I think there would still be skill/subject area testing/certification.. Just with alternative education components... You didn't use to have to go to law school to be a lawyer... You just studied and then took the bar exam...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 20:32:31 GMT -5
And have you found that using a BS as a criteria has been widely successful in the screens process? I I think there would still be skill/subject area testing/certification.. Just with alternative education components... You didn't use to have to go to law school to be a lawyer... You just studied and then took the bar exam... do you think people just need to know the same thing in the future as in the past. Getting an education to get the same old jobs that were there in the past. What are you going to get a certification in if the jobs are being done by a machine? How are you proposing a different education and not just the same one earned a different way? What you said about your son, getting cross trained (my understanding not your words) in many different trades is more what I think will be needed, not the certification and testing you talk about here. if that makes sense. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 20:35:46 GMT -5
I think it will be a combination hickle. And I'd do think people with a broader base will have better opportunities.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2015 20:46:03 GMT -5
I think it will be a combination hickle. And I'd do think people with a broader base will have better opportunities. I do not see that with my granddaughters schooling. There's seems the same as mine from the 60's. Go to school from 8 to 3:30, do your homework etc. I think it needs to be more open ended. The stuff with all the suspensions for doing perfectly innocent things takes away from individuality. I think home schooling would be different for some, better in some cases and worse in others, but I don't see much change. Am I just missing it? Which could be the case. I just have 3 granddaughters to go by. A bit of bragging but one of my granddaughters scored in the top 1% on the math standard testing. She thinks she did not miss any of the questions. All 3 get A's, but I worry that is good grades in a failing system. |
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/ beer 
/ clipper cards apx 100 month. If he went to a JC without grants, he'd net 5k. (Tuition / fees drop from 8k to 1500) Do that for 2 yrs and you really come out ahead. That's GS2's game plan .... (1500 × 2) + (19k × 2) = 41k without assistance or scholarships (he won't get that)