Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:02:17 GMT -5
Maybe it was all the parentheses, but it seemed like you were saying marriage vows could be taken as consent to sex...
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Sept 2, 2015 21:13:18 GMT -5
Who is the judge of "modest", though? 12 people on a jury who are hearing the case of a woman accusing a man of rape? The rapist himself? The police officers taking a statement? Even in my household my standards of modesty are different than my husband's. I'm sure Michelle Duggar would faint if she saw what I leave the house in, to say nothing of the mullahs in Iran.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:37:32 GMT -5
Maybe it was all the parentheses, but it seemed like you were saying marriage vows could be taken as consent to sex... To SEX, yes. To RAPE no. And even then, only until that consent is revoked. ETA: married people of the board... does your spouse have to ask your consent every time they "want to make a move on you?" Is there a "Dear, I'd like to begin the activities that will lead you to penetrative sex... do I have your consent?" question asked of you each time?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:39:00 GMT -5
Are you suggesting consent doesn't have to be given each time they have sex?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:40:48 GMT -5
Are you suggesting consent doesn't have to be given each time they have sex? I'm suggesting that it's implied UNTIL REVOKED(maybe if I make it bigger it will get through)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:42:30 GMT -5
So the first time a wife says no is it for ever after revoked? ... Isn't that basically the same as getting consent every time?
I don't think a marriage vow implies in any way that either party must be always available for sex..
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 21:59:06 GMT -5
So the first time a wife says no is it for ever after revoked? ... Isn't that basically the same as getting consent every time? I don't think a marriage vow implies in any way that either party must be always available for sex.. Depends on the "no"... doesn't it? "Not tonight, I have a headache" would be considered "time limited and not revoking future activity". "Don't ever touch me again!" would be pretty straightforward that it's a permanent revocation. Anything else would fall somewhere between the two.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 2, 2015 22:04:52 GMT -5
So are you just as enthusiastic about 'beyond a reasonable doubt' when it comes to murderers? Yes. If one eye witness puts someone at the scene of a murder with a gun in his hand but you have no concrete evidence rather than a dead body and a suspect who can't account for his whereabouts and has a strong motive for killing the guy, are you willing to shout prudence from the roof tops and let a murderer walk free? Yes. I don't let an individual's status or non-status as "penis owner" blind me to standards of justice. And there it is. Only the nasty girls get raped - the ones who fornicate outside of marriage. I never said that. I'm saying that willingness to fornicate plays a part in the court's willingness to believe sex was non-consensual. Society as a whole encourages women to be quite, to not be a bitch, be seen not heard, to essentially "be a lady". Be a lady unless you're being attacked. If you're being attacked, be a wild animal. I've never once heard any man, woman, or child in our society insist that women should behave passively when facing a rapist. Not once. I defy you to find me any article, any blog, any op ed, anything written by a cogent author that advocates passivity in response to rape. And if you do find something, write the author and tell them their advice is crap and flies in the face of a library's worth of documented evidence to the contrary. Not to mention the back and forth the experts are on whether or not it's prudent to fight back. Show me the "don't fight back" 'experts'. I realize what I've never seen could fill a book, but I've never seen one. I have seen several that would suffer an apoplexy if someone claiming to be an "expert" so much as suggested that passivity was a good idea. And none of that is even touching how next to impossible it is for guys to truly understand how it is to live in a body that is designed to be weaker than the other sex. Yes there's exceptions, but the majority of men can overpower the majority of women and fighting back is futile if the man really wants something. If I can do it, you can do it. A 300lb muscle-bound guy could almost surely beat me senseless, pin me down, even kill me. Would I still fight back? Absolutely. And girls who don't fight a knife or a hulk are more likely to survive.... Which is a goal see. So it should be survive and not prosecute... Or fight and hope if you end up dead at least they might get DNA...? All I can say is that I would fight back, weapon or no. Hulk or no. If the guy kills me, so be it. I'll see him at the Judgment. I'll die on that hill if I have to. If your preference is to give up fighting in the hopes of saving your life, I won't condemn your choice, but have no delusions: you've made the rapist's life easier, you've rewarded his conquest, and there's a very good chance the courts can't/won't convict him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 22:14:17 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder if people really realize what they are saying... ?
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 2, 2015 22:30:30 GMT -5
You can't tell a person to behave one way their entire life and then hope they some how know to do the opposite when they're in the midst of a fear-induced, adrenaline-spiked, fight-or-flight quandary of their life.
You can't insist that a girl can only take dance classes all her life and then wonder why she didn't know karate.
----
300 lbs is how much more weight than you? And how many guys are in that 300+lb category where you would have to really fight back or die? I'm guessing quite a bit more than you and not many in the 300+ category that would be easily able to run after and man-handle you. Meanwhile, a guy who weighs the same as a women still has pretty high odds of being able to overtake her due to the different physical make-up of guys. Hell, I've had guy friends that weigh less than me that could easily pin me down without being able to move.
Eta dammit I meant weigh less! Fixed it.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Sept 2, 2015 22:48:57 GMT -5
Maybe it was all the parentheses, but it seemed like you were saying marriage vows could be taken as consent to sex... To SEX, yes. To RAPE no. And even then, only until that consent is revoked. ETA: married people of the board... does your spouse have to ask your consent every time they "want to make a move on you?" Is there a "Dear, I'd like to begin the activities that will lead you to penetrative sex... do I have your consent?" question asked of you each time? You should look into the law and history- start with spousal rape exceptions and for fun look into the rule of thumb. Our ancestors had no problem considering women property. Some people today still think they are. And all of it is based on religion.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 2, 2015 23:04:08 GMT -5
Says who? Who exactly are these people conditioning women to suppress fight-or-flight?
I don't know where the "dance class" women in your world come from. I'm just sheltered Virgil, granted, but the women I know personally can and have fought off attackers sans karate skills, and not one was ever taught to give up resistance.
That goes for my schooling as well. During high school, undergraduate, graduate, post-graduate: fight the bastard with all your might. Bite, kick, scream, scratch, rip, gouge. There was no "give up if he's got a knife" in the curriculum.
The only places I've ever seen "don't fight back" dogma are progressive backwaters like this message board, with posters tripping over themselves in their haste to explain why women can't and shouldn't fight back. Posters irrationally equate advocacy for fighting back with blaming women who choose not to fight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 23:36:49 GMT -5
You can't tell a person to behave one way their entire life and then hope they some how know to do the opposite when they're in the midst of a fear-induced, adrenaline-spiked, fight-or-flight quandary of their life. You can't insist that a girl can only take dance classes all her life and then wonder why she didn't know karate. ---- 300 lbs is how much more weight than you? And how many guys are in that 300+lb category where you would have to really fight back or die? I'm guessing quite a bit more than you and not many in the 300+ category that would be easily able to run after and man-handle you. Meanwhile, a guy who weighs the same as a women still has pretty high odds of being able to overtake her due to the different physical make-up of guys. Hell, I've had guy friends that weigh more than me that could easily pin me down without being able to move. It's called "fight or flight" for a reason... it's not "give in or accept".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 23:39:57 GMT -5
To SEX, yes. To RAPE no. And even then, only until that consent is revoked. ETA: married people of the board... does your spouse have to ask your consent every time they "want to make a move on you?" Is there a "Dear, I'd like to begin the activities that will lead you to penetrative sex... do I have your consent?" question asked of you each time? You should look into the law and history- start with spousal rape exceptions and for fun look into the rule of thumb. Our ancestors had no problem considering women property. Some people today still think they are. And all of it is based on religion. I'm well aware of those things too. Thanks. For the record, it's my personal belief that those ideas were/are all wrong. Spousal rape is still rape, and women should never have been looked on as "property" (just like people {as slaves} shouldn't have been either).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 23:40:08 GMT -5
I sometimes wonder if people really realize what they are saying... ? I wonder that quite often.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 3, 2015 0:09:49 GMT -5
Says who? Who exactly are these people conditioning women to suppress fight-or-flight? I don't know where the "dance class" women in your world come from. I'm just sheltered Virgil, granted, but the women I know personally can and have fought off attackers sans karate skills, and not one was ever taught to give up resistance. That goes for my schooling as well. During high school, undergraduate, graduate, post-graduate: fight the bastard with all your might. Bite, kick, scream, scratch, rip, gouge. There was no "give up if he's got a knife" in the curriculum. The only places I've ever seen "don't fight back" dogma are progressive backwaters like this message board, with posters tripping over themselves in their haste to explain why women can't and shouldn't fight back. Posters irrationally equate advocacy for fighting back with blaming women who choose not to fight. *Quote removed as post quoted has been removed. - mmhmm, Administrator Don't get mad at me. Take it up with op- "girls who don't fight a knife or a hulk are more likely to survive" -ed, and just- "fighting back is futile if the man really wants something" -me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 1:05:43 GMT -5
There are times to fight. There are times to survive. There is never a time to suggest to a woman she must not have been raped because she isn't beat up enough, didn't fight hard enough. Never.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 3:14:03 GMT -5
There are times to fight. There are times to survive. There is never a time to suggest to a woman she must not have been raped because she isn't beat up enough, didn't fight hard enough. Never. I agree with the bolded 1,000%.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 3, 2015 5:33:48 GMT -5
The only places I've ever seen "don't fight back" dogma are progressive backwaters like this message board, with posters tripping over themselves in their haste to explain why women can't and shouldn't fight back. Posters irrationally equate advocacy for fighting back with blaming women who choose not to fight. There is never a time to suggest to a woman she must not have been raped because she isn't beat up enough, didn't fight hard enough. Never. Q.E.D. But let me summarize my position thusly: There is never a time to suggest to a woman than she cannot or should not fight a rapist. Never.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 3, 2015 8:05:46 GMT -5
My take, and what I told my daughter: "If you are alone, and someone tries to force you to have sex with them, run. As soon as you suspect that's going on, run away as fast as you can. However, if you are in a position where you cannot get away and the person has you trapped, or down, do not fight. Go limp. Just close your eyes and pretend you're somewhere far away. I want you to come home to me so I can handle it - and handle it I will. It will probably never happen to you, but I want you alive and able to get home to me."
If that's some sort of "progressive" dogma, so be it. I'm fine with that. I love my daughter with all my heart and I wanted her alive, not dead, or maimed, or mutilated. Fortunately, the situation never presented itself. For that, I'm very grateful.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 8:20:35 GMT -5
V- I equate your suggestion that a woman has to fight hard enough to prove rape, with blaming the victim.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 3, 2015 9:54:24 GMT -5
Says who? Who exactly are these people conditioning women to suppress fight-or-flight? I don't know where the "dance class" women in your world come from. I'm just sheltered Virgil, granted, but the women I know personally can and have fought off attackers sans karate skills, and not one was ever taught to give up resistance. That goes for my schooling as well. During high school, undergraduate, graduate, post-graduate: fight the bastard with all your might. Bite, kick, scream, scratch, rip, gouge. There was no "give up if he's got a knife" in the curriculum.The only places I've ever seen "don't fight back" dogma are progressive backwaters like this message board, with posters tripping over themselves in their haste to explain why women can't and shouldn't fight back. Posters irrationally equate advocacy for fighting back with blaming women who choose not to fight. You had classes that taught you how to fight back against a rapist? How unusual. Here is an article about whether 'don't fight back' is a better option. www.theguardian.com/world/2000/aug/17/gender.uk1My favorite bit: Advising women to resist also implies that women need to be told what to do. It holds them responsible. Women are often blamed and blame themselves for rape. If a woman physically resists and is severely hurt, she is told she should have acted more passively. If she does not resist, she is seen as accepting the violence. It is a no-win situation. In short, Virgil, your insistance that women 'must' fight back is a continuation of the 'blame the victim' mentality so pervasive in our society, when it comes to sex crimes.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2015 10:06:25 GMT -5
V- I equate your suggestion that a woman has to fight hard enough to prove rape, with blaming the victim. i don't. but i see how you got there. edit: actually, i think the phrase "has to" needs to be defined. WHY does she have to? without that answer, i can't really tell what this suggestion means.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 3, 2015 10:12:48 GMT -5
I took a class that taught how to fight back. It's not a new thing. It's at least 40 years old. It included NOT going for the groin and why not to.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 10:16:28 GMT -5
V says if there isn't sufficient physical evidence of a fight, you can't prove it was rape.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Sept 3, 2015 10:17:04 GMT -5
Also victims of rape can get sexually aroused during a rape. Does that mean that they enjoyed it and it is not rape?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 3, 2015 10:24:15 GMT -5
V says if there isn't sufficient physical evidence of a fight, you can't prove it was rape. allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment, oped: how DOES one prove rape to the standards of our judicial system?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 3, 2015 10:28:08 GMT -5
Also victims of rape can get sexually aroused during a rape. Does that mean that they enjoyed it and it is not rape? If they physically 'enjoyed it' and became pregnant from the rape, then it really wasn't true rape.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 3, 2015 10:40:15 GMT -5
Sure there is. If she has a gun to her head for instance, resistance will probably mean instant death. Not a good option.
Take you and the 300 lb thug. If he wants your wallet, and has a gun to your head, will you give it to him, or fight? I wouldn't even resist a guy with a pocket knife to save some cash. Absolutely not worth the risk. If a guy had a gun to my head and started issuing sexual demands, I'd either take my chances running with the hope he wouldn't shoot, or else try to surprise him, wrestle the gun away, or die trying. I personally believe that not submitting is worth fighting and dying for in the case of rape. However, this is a personal values judgment that places resistance above death. My advice would be: if you share my priorities, I believe them to be good priorities; if you value life more than resistance, especially in the case of rape at gunpoint where the risk of death would be high, the sensible course of action is to submit to the rapist and hopefully preserve your life. One caveat is that I don't know how effective submission would be. It seems to me that a rapist armed with a gun either goes into the act with the willingness to kill the victim or without it. If he lacks the willingness, escape and/or resistance aren't futile. If he doesn't lack the willingness, he may well be motivated to execute the only witness to the crime after he's committed it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 3, 2015 10:42:21 GMT -5
V says if there isn't sufficient physical evidence of a fight, you can't prove it was rape. Not categorically "can't" prove it. I'm claiming it eliminates one of the key pieces of corroborating evidence.
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