AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 30, 2015 20:08:19 GMT -5
No, that wasn't an Iranian mullah, or Rush Limbaugh, or my advice to my own daughter- this was Pretenders lead singer Chrissie Hynde. I, like most people I think, definitely disagree that rape is anyone's fault but the rapist's. However, I do think there are things women can do to put the odds in their favor- and as I've stated on these very forums before, stumbling around in a frat house in their underwear drunk off their ass is not one of the things that is typically helpful. Still not the woman's fault as Hynde suggests here, but definitely unwise. That is of course the discussion I hope this will prompt. This pretend world many young women live in today where they're invulnerable to an assault because the men have all been to a freshmen seminar is dangerous.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Aug 30, 2015 20:16:43 GMT -5
too bad she's wrong.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 30, 2015 20:28:21 GMT -5
So next step will be to say it is not uncle Johnny fault for molesting little Suzie that is 6; she shouldn't have walked around him naked.
*** actual excuse I have heard someone use in my home country and I wish it was made up...worse it was the mother of the victim.
I have been to strip clubs where the woman vagina was basically in my face and I would still have no right to sexually assault her and would be my fault if I did.
-> in MA there is a strip club we went to where you are actually allowed to touch ($$$) and I would still be at fault if I went beyond touching and deciding my precious penis needed to make some type of connection.
Let's stop blaming the victim...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 30, 2015 20:36:01 GMT -5
The new university sorority group pictures.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2015 20:48:22 GMT -5
Q: If a rape occurs, who is to blame A: The rapist.
Q: If a woman (drunk or not, dressed or in her underwear) willingly goes someplace with someone, who is responsible for her going to that someplace with that someone (ignoring what happens or doesn't happen when they get where they are going... just placing responsibility for her being where she is and in what state {drunk/sober, dressed conservatively or in lingerie} she is in)? A: The woman.
It's all about WHERE you are assigning blame and to WHAT.
In regards to Ms. Hynde's encounter with the biker gang... maybe she shouldn't have gone off with them. It's not like they forced her to go.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 30, 2015 20:58:01 GMT -5
She's apparently an idiot. Really, who thinks a biker gang is into free transportation to parties of your choice no matter how you are dressed?
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Aug 30, 2015 21:11:09 GMT -5
I don't know if it's still going on but men would get a hold of a drug (chlorophorm?) that is breathed then sneak up behind young women and overpower them with the drug. Or have a handkerchief and would say, here breath this perfume. Wham they are down.
I also heard about young H.S. girls being invited to a lavish wedding and told to wear their prom dress. In a side room at the church, the perps would tear the prom dress off her traumatising the girl then take her home in shredded tee shirt and shorts.
One woman shared that she and some of her friends when they were young girls were picked up at home by who they thought were priests taking them to a class. The next thing they remember was waking up dumped in a field.
There are some pretty sick people out there. The manner of dress would not have changed things.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Aug 30, 2015 21:14:06 GMT -5
Sure it's wrong if someone rapes someone no matter how they are dressed
It's also wrong if someone mugs someone even if they are on the street and flashing their expensive necklace, rolex, wad of cash, etc.
But there are things you can try to do to minimize the risks
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 30, 2015 21:18:17 GMT -5
Sure it's wrong if someone rapes someone no matter how they are dressed
It's also wrong if someone mugs someone even if they are on the street and flashing their expensive necklace, rolex, wad of cash, etc.
But there are things you can try to do to minimize the risks
Yes there is: be aware of your surroundings and those around you.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Aug 30, 2015 21:18:09 GMT -5
The new university sorority group pictures. A group of the most sexually used and abused women in the U.S. Closed LDS compounds.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 30, 2015 21:21:15 GMT -5
The new university sorority group pictures. A group of the most sexually used and abused women in the U.S. Closed LDS compounds. Yes they are. But the perfect model for dress for success and weekend partying!!!.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Aug 30, 2015 21:54:29 GMT -5
Wearing suits of amour should do it
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 30, 2015 23:09:27 GMT -5
She's apparently an idiot. Really, who thinks a biker gang is into free transportation to parties of your choice no matter how you are dressed?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 30, 2015 23:42:27 GMT -5
A group of the most sexually used and abused women in the U.S. Closed LDS compounds. Yes they are. But the perfect model for dress for success and weekend partying!!!. No, this is. Modest enough?? I think they're showing too much eye...it will inflame the lusts of men and therefore the womens' fault. Damned hussies!
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Aug 31, 2015 5:25:34 GMT -5
I believe the drugs were more of an issue than how she was dressed. How a woman dresses (as long as she IS dressed) should have NO bearing on sexual assault. Short of some of Miley Cyrus's outfits NO clothing is an invite.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 31, 2015 7:15:07 GMT -5
Hmm, well, I will go out on a limb and say Chrissy Hynde has a point.
Yes, women should never be raped, and it is always the man's fault if she is raped.
However - the world is full of shitty people and you improve your chances of avoiding contact with these types of people by your behavior.
If I'm going someplace where there is a crowd, for instance, I never carry a purse. I put what I need in my coat pockets or pants pockets. Consequently I've never had my purse stolen by a pick pocket.
I always lock my car, even if it's sitting on my driveway. I always lock the windows and doors on my house at night, and put on the alarm system. There are parts of town I don't ever go to by myself, and other parts where I would visit in the day but never a night.
When I was in college, I only went to frat parties with a large group of other women, and I never got drunk there. And this was back in prehistoric times - frat houses have always been dangerous places for women. I went to bars with groups of female friends and refused to go anyplace with strange men who attempted to pick me up, and I can think of just one occasion where I got so drunk I made stupid choices - and I was very fortunate that things did not turn out very badly for me.
I saw plenty of half naked drunk women at the frat parties and at the bars, being passed around between the drunk men there.
It would be nice if we could trust one another. I would like to never half to lock my house up, and I would like to feel comfortable walking in any part of town I wanted to walk in, and it would be nice if college girls could get plastered and naked and still end up safe in their own bed the next morning, by themselves. But that doesn't happen. The world is full of sharks, and the rest of us need to know how to not look like shark food.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 31, 2015 7:52:43 GMT -5
Hmm remind me to go tell my friends that were in a frat that the an annual lingerie party that they passed up some prime opportunities to get away with shit.
Except maybe why they always had a lot of girls there was that they knew the guys weren't assholes. Ok, well I don't think any winner of the lingerie contest ever saw their prize money cuz everyone was drunk lol, but other than that.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 31, 2015 8:16:37 GMT -5
Several years ago one of my friends was telling me about a woman he had met in a bar.
After a short talk they were at her place, in bed, she is on top. She said "do you love me"?.
He said "You know we only met like an hour ago", As his dick slapped his belly!
So at what point does this go from consensual sex to rape? In the second that he did not love her.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 31, 2015 8:18:26 GMT -5
I don't think our young women have particularly good role models at the moment.
ie...Miley Cyrus, selling records because she is shoving her bum in someone's face. Its not OK behaviour.
Yes rape is rape ....and the rapist is always to blame.
but a bit of dignity on the part of our girls wouldn't go amiss.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 31, 2015 8:31:06 GMT -5
Miley Cyrus, selling records because she is shoving her bum in someone's face.
Madonna strapped herself to a cross on stage and wore a bodice with pointy boob cones.
Elvis swung his hips around in a provocative manner
Every generation has their chosen scapegoat for the evils of society and how they are leading our poor young people astray.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 31, 2015 8:34:57 GMT -5
Yes rape is rape ....and the rapist is always to blame.
but a bit of dignity on the part of our girls wouldn't go amiss. It is that "but" that is the problem.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 31, 2015 10:30:18 GMT -5
I agree that she's wrong in that it is not HER fault that others made a decision to kidnap her and rape her. It might be a nuanced point, but there is definitely something about her, as a victim, that led these sickos to select her as a victim over someone else. What cannot be denied is that predators pick attractive and easy prey. They may be human beings, but like any other predator they are looking for prey that they can separate from the herd, and easily take down.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 31, 2015 10:34:21 GMT -5
Hmm, well, I will go out on a limb and say Chrissy Hynde has a point. Yes, women should never be raped, and it is always the man's fault if she is raped. However - the world is full of shitty people and you improve your chances of avoiding contact with these types of people by your behavior.
If I'm going someplace where there is a crowd, for instance, I never carry a purse. I put what I need in my coat pockets or pants pockets. Consequently I've never had my purse stolen by a pick pocket. I always lock my car, even if it's sitting on my driveway. I always lock the windows and doors on my house at night, and put on the alarm system. There are parts of town I don't ever go to by myself, and other parts where I would visit in the day but never a night. When I was in college, I only went to frat parties with a large group of other women, and I never got drunk there. And this was back in prehistoric times - frat houses have always been dangerous places for women. I went to bars with groups of female friends and refused to go anyplace with strange men who attempted to pick me up, and I can think of just one occasion where I got so drunk I made stupid choices - and I was very fortunate that things did not turn out very badly for me. I saw plenty of half naked drunk women at the frat parties and at the bars, being passed around between the drunk men there. It would be nice if we could trust one another. I would like to never half to lock my house up, and I would like to feel comfortable walking in any part of town I wanted to walk in, and it would be nice if college girls could get plastered and naked and still end up safe in their own bed the next morning, by themselves. But that doesn't happen. The world is full of sharks, and the rest of us need to know how to not look like shark food. The highlighted text is the only point I would make. I do find Hynde's acceptance of full responsibility disturbing. That being said- women ignore this at their peril.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 31, 2015 10:42:09 GMT -5
I agree, Hynde is not responsible for what happened to her. She is responsible for poor judgment in agreeing to go with these guys to the party, but that doesn't mean she deserved what happened to her.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Aug 31, 2015 10:43:16 GMT -5
Q: If a rape occurs, who is to blame A: The rapist. Q: If a woman (drunk or not, dressed or in her underwear) willingly goes someplace with someone, who is responsible for her going to that someplace with that someone (ignoring what happens or doesn't happen when they get where they are going... just placing responsibility for her being where she is and in what state {drunk/sober, dressed conservatively or in lingerie} she is in)? A: The woman. It's all about WHERE you are assigning blame and to WHAT. In regards to Ms. Hynde's encounter with the biker gang... maybe she shouldn't have gone off with them. It's not like they forced her to go. It was fraud in the inducement- which does make it kidnapping. The people that raped her are ultimately the ones who made the moral choice to do an evil thing. They committed a crime. I do think she overstates her role. She is 100% not responsible for her rape. However, it's kind of like "right of way". I have explained to my kids w/ re: to walking / biking about the right of way. I have also explained to them "gross vehicle weight right of way". You can be right, and still be dead. So, she's not responsible. She still got raped. I doubt that's any consolation to a rape victim. Are we so PC that we cannot accurately explain to a young woman sensible ways to ensure she does not become a victim? In my opinion, a person would have to be pretty sick to say no. I certainly would not want it on my conscious that I was so 'enlightened' that I refrained from helping anyone lest someone get offended.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 31, 2015 12:53:30 GMT -5
She's apparently an idiot. Really, who thinks a biker gang is into free transportation to parties of your choice no matter how you are dressed? You realize we're on a board where advocating prudence is considered blaming the victim? To the best of my understanding, recommending avoidance of any behaviour that leads to an increased likelihood of rape constitutes blaming the victim, since people ought to be able to engage in any legal behaviour without being raped. The logic is unassailable. Why would you blame the victim here, Optimist?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 31, 2015 13:03:11 GMT -5
I agree, Hynde is not responsible for what happened to her. She is responsible for poor judgment in agreeing to go with these guys to the party, but that doesn't mean she deserved what happened to her. You're blaming the victim too! You can't claim she exercised "poor judgment" and then fall back to "that doesn't mean she deserved what happened to her". You're acknowledging that her judgment directly contributed to the rape. Clearly what you're saying is that had she made another judgment, she wouldn't have been raped. YMAM precedent is clear: you are guilty of victim blaming. Your attempt to disguise your crime as pragmatism may grant you some leniency during sentencing.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 31, 2015 13:07:17 GMT -5
And you disagree with this premise?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2015 13:10:29 GMT -5
And you disagree with this premise? I think there are certain behaviors that can up the odds that you get raped, or mugged. I think you are a fool if you ignore that.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 31, 2015 13:17:11 GMT -5
And you disagree with this premise? I think there are certain behaviors that can up the odds that you get raped, or mugged. I think you are a fool if you ignore that.
Thanks, but that wasn't what I asked.
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