zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 1, 2015 10:13:47 GMT -5
I wouldn't walk down Division street in this town in broad daylight with a group of women even carrying. It's just not safe, period. Should I be able to? Yes. Is it? No.
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garion2003
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Post by garion2003 on Sept 1, 2015 10:33:41 GMT -5
Several years ago one of my friends was telling me about a woman he had met in a bar. After a short talk they were at her place, in bed, she is on top. She said "do you love me"?. He said "You know we only met like an hour ago", As his dick slapped his belly! So at what point does this go from consensual sex to rape? In the second that he did not love her. I'm not sure that "not loving someone" = rape.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 1, 2015 10:49:46 GMT -5
My point was how often does act like the one I posted go from consensual to rape because He was not in love with her after an hour. It didn't, but could have.
How many time does this go from consensual to rape because of a guilty conscience, fear of pregnancy, peer pressure, revenge or maybe over an argument after the fact.
I understand what rape is, There are many men that use the wrong head to think with just as there are are women out there that are total dingbats.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2015 11:12:22 GMT -5
What I wouldn't give to have had someone do a study on the outfits worn when women are raped and how provocative it is. I have a feeling the image of what the world thinks rape victims wear when assaulted does not match what they were actually wearing. Perhaps, perhaps not. I would be willing to bet that there are commonalities among rape victims that add up to: easy target. This is not to say that it is even conscious, foolish, poor judgment or any of that on the part of the victim. I would simply guess that, given human nature, predators don't go out of their way to pick difficult targets. They would not, for example, likely pick a woman out of a group of women in broad daylight. Again, I don't know- but I'm guessing commonalities like- alone, no one nearby, dark, distracted / little or no situational awareness etc- would come into play. You want to know what the biggest commonality is? That they know their rapist! The vast majority know their rapist on at least an acquaintance level and almost half counted the scum as their friend up until he raped them. Just like two of my friends did. This is why the clothing issue and being smart is pretty much a load of crock. 82 percent of assaults are by someone on the victim knows. It's not just some random guy seeing a girl in a dark alley with a short skirt in the majority of the cases. It's guys being assholes and monsters to the people that they know that's the problem. Not short skirts. rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 11:18:20 GMT -5
Perhaps, perhaps not. I would be willing to bet that there are commonalities among rape victims that add up to: easy target. This is not to say that it is even conscious, foolish, poor judgment or any of that on the part of the victim. I would simply guess that, given human nature, predators don't go out of their way to pick difficult targets. They would not, for example, likely pick a woman out of a group of women in broad daylight. Again, I don't know- but I'm guessing commonalities like- alone, no one nearby, dark, distracted / little or no situational awareness etc- would come into play. You want to know what the biggest commonality is? That they know their rapist! The vast majority know their rapist on at least an acquaintance level and almost half counted the scum as their friend up until he raped them. Just like two of my friends did. This is why the clothing issue and being smart is pretty much a load of crock. 82 percent of assaults are by someone on the victim knows. It's not just some random guy seeing a girl in a dark alley with a short skirt in the majority of the cases. It's guys being assholes and monsters to the people that they know that's the problem. Not short skirts. rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offendersI guess when you think about it, it's not that surprising.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 11:20:28 GMT -5
My point was how often does act like the one I posted go from consensual to rape because He was not in love with her after an hour. It didn't, but could have. How many time does this go from consensual to rape because of a guilty conscience, fear of pregnancy, peer pressure, revenge or maybe over an argument after the fact. I understand what rape is, There are many men that use the wrong head to think with just as there are are women out there that are total dingbats. I've posted about this before- buyer's remorse rape. It completely diminishes the horrific crime of sexual assault, and trivializes real victims. I was flamed pretty hard when I stated that women need to accept responsibility for "giving in" instead of clearly and unequivocally saying no.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2015 11:22:59 GMT -5
My point was how often does act like the one I posted go from consensual to rape because He was not in love with her after an hour. It didn't, but could have. How many time does this go from consensual to rape because of a guilty conscience, fear of pregnancy, peer pressure, revenge or maybe over an argument after the fact. I understand what rape is, There are many men that use the wrong head to think with just as there are are women out there that are total dingbats. I've posted about this before- buyer's remorse rape. It completely diminishes the horrific crime of sexual assault, and trivializes real victims. I was flamed pretty hard when I stated that women need to accept responsibility for "giving in" instead of clearly and unequivocally saying no. Paul- with all due respect- it is your language that gets you into trouble in this debate. and honestly, there is no "good way" to phrase it. the response will ALWAYS be that it is up to the man to seek consent, rather than simply taking what he wants.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 1, 2015 11:41:32 GMT -5
Yup, I told DS that I didn't care if he was in the middle of "doing it." If the girl changed her mind, stop, get up, get dressed, walk out the door, and never look back. Count yourself lucky and get on with your life.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2015 11:46:54 GMT -5
Yup, I told DS that I didn't care if he was in the middle of "doing it." If the girl changed her mind, stop, get up, get dressed, walk out the door, and never look back. Count yourself lucky and get on with your life. the world we live in today is hypersensitive about this issue. but the past alternative, where we basically dismiss women's views as immaterial to the discussion, was far worse. will there be some casualties to the "new way of doing things"? sure. is it fair? no. i am not sure this discussion can ever be made "fair".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2015 11:48:06 GMT -5
and to go full circle, Chrissy Hynde is making the same mistake. the linguistic rules have changed, and she has not kept up.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 12:01:51 GMT -5
I've posted about this before- buyer's remorse rape. It completely diminishes the horrific crime of sexual assault, and trivializes real victims. I was flamed pretty hard when I stated that women need to accept responsibility for "giving in" instead of clearly and unequivocally saying no. Paul- with all due respect- it is your language that gets you into trouble in this debate. and honestly, there is no "good way" to phrase it. the response will ALWAYS be that it is up to the man to seek consent, rather than simply taking what he wants. I am not saying that a man doesn't have to get consent. I'm saying once consent is obtained, yes means yes. It doesn't mean yes tonight and "date rape" tomorrow, or a week or a month later after "thinking about it" when she has a sudden revelation that it actually wasn't consensual.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2015 12:03:07 GMT -5
Paul- with all due respect- it is your language that gets you into trouble in this debate. and honestly, there is no "good way" to phrase it. the response will ALWAYS be that it is up to the man to seek consent, rather than simply taking what he wants. I am not saying that a man doesn't have to get consent. I'm saying once consent is obtained, yes means yes. It doesn't mean yes tonight and "date rape" tomorrow, or a week or a month later after "thinking about it" when she has a sudden revelation that it actually wasn't consensual. i think we understand each other well enough on this subject.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 12:03:43 GMT -5
Yup, I told DS that I didn't care if he was in the middle of "doing it." If the girl changed her mind, stop, get up, get dressed, walk out the door, and never look back. Count yourself lucky and get on with your life. I don't disagree. Everything is fine until someone else objects.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 1, 2015 12:15:04 GMT -5
Yup, I told him plenty more as well. Fortunately, he doesn't sleep with "crazy." But plenty do.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2015 12:25:48 GMT -5
A yes only means yes if it's still a yes throughout the entire act. At any point during the act consent can be revoked, no questions asked.
While there are instances of changing their mind or false accusations they are far more outweighed not only by the number of victims but by the number of victims too afraid to come forward for fear of being told they were asking for it or no one believing them because they knew the guy so they must have wanted it.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 12:31:13 GMT -5
A yes only means yes if it's still a yes throughout the entire act. At any point during the act consent can be revoked, no questions asked. While there are instances of changing their mind or false accusations they are far more outweighed not only by the number of victims but by the number of victims too afraid to come forward for fear of being told they were asking for it or no one believing them because they knew the guy so they must have wanted it. I agree that consent can always be withdrawn at any time. I think false allegations are actually far more widespread than non-reports. Women have the option of, at any time, accusing a man of rape- sometimes even when there's been no sexual contact. As a religious person, my personal view is that this is yet another good reason to wait. Consent obtained at the altar, or at least the courthouse is tough to argue with.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 1, 2015 12:33:21 GMT -5
Yes, but it isn't realistic. You get whack jobs like the Duggars acting inappropriately . People get married later. It isn't realistic to ask some one 32 years old to not have sex.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 1, 2015 12:36:42 GMT -5
A yes only means yes if it's still a yes throughout the entire act. At any point during the act consent can be revoked, no questions asked. While there are instances of changing their mind or false accusations they are far more outweighed not only by the number of victims but by the number of victims too afraid to come forward for fear of being told they were asking for it or no one believing them because they knew the guy so they must have wanted it. I agree that consent can always be withdrawn at any time. I think false allegations are actually far more widespread than non-reports. Women have the option of, at any time, accusing a man of rape- sometimes even when there's been no sexual contact. As a religious person, my personal view is that this is yet another good reason to wait. Consent obtained at the altar, or at least the courthouse is tough to argue with. A spouse can charge their spouse with rape. Marital/spousal rape happens and there are convictions.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2015 12:40:09 GMT -5
Thank you Tenn, my head exploded there for a second and I wasn't sure if I'd get coherent enough to respond.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 1, 2015 12:42:39 GMT -5
Thank you Tenn, my head exploded there for a second and I wasn't sure if I'd get coherent enough to respond. You get used to posts like that after a while. You will only do face palms after a while.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2015 12:44:05 GMT -5
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 13:37:53 GMT -5
Damn lies and statistics...
I reflexively do not believe stuff like that. Like I said, we have a huge problem with the re-definition of rape. How is the number of rapes not reported calculated since they are not reported? Sounds a bit climate-changey to me. And like climate change- there's an agenda to rehabilitate the reputation of organizations that promote ideas like "rape culture" after their poster girl was completely discredited as a liar after this sicko strutted around campus with a mattress strapped to her back to "raise awareness" (and ruing the reputation of a man) of an event that never took place.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 1, 2015 13:45:32 GMT -5
By the way, I'm poking around on the Enliven website. It is fairly typical of a lot of organizations started by the mentally unstable in lieu of finding honest work. Very disjointed and hard to follow. Very clearly agenda-driven.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2015 17:34:42 GMT -5
Some of the disbelief probably lies with the fact that most of these guys don't walk away thinking yeah I'm a rapist! Instead they think:
Look how I turned her no into a yes
There's no way her body would have reacted like that if she didn't want it
I just had sex
She stopped struggling so she changed her mind
She totally wanted me
Finally I was able to pry sex outta her
Etc etc
Some people/guys don't want to believe the rape statistics because then that means a lot of guys out there are rapists.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2015 17:43:31 GMT -5
Some of the disbelief probably lies with the fact that most of these guys don't walk away thinking yeah I'm a rapist! Instead they think: Look how I turned her no into a yes There's no way her body would have reacted like that if she didn't want it I just had sex She stopped struggling so she changed her mind She totally wanted me Finally I was able to pry sex outta her Etc etc Some people/guys don't want to believe the rape statistics because then that means a lot of guys out there are rapists. i think the other aspect of this is that most guys think they are nice/respectful/gentlemanly/good looking/funny/etc. if you think of yourself that way, then you probably think that OTHER people think of you that way. that is often not the case. women often view men as a THREAT to them. it is hard for a "good guy" to get his head around, but it is a fact. therefore, the fact that you are good with cocktail conversation ultimately doesn't amount to much. just sayin'.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 1, 2015 17:52:25 GMT -5
Damn lies and statistics... I reflexively do not believe stuff like that. Like I said, we have a huge problem with the re-definition of rape. How is the number of rapes not reported calculated since they are not reported? I've never trusted the false allegation or non-reported stats either. There's no reliable way to estimate them (specifically, I've never happened on a study with a defensible methodology for doing so). Having said that, I can't think of any greater argument for exercising the strictest prudence and caution in one's social conduct than that chart.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Sept 1, 2015 18:08:54 GMT -5
Some of the disbelief probably lies with the fact that most of these guys don't walk away thinking yeah I'm a rapist! Instead they think: Look how I turned her no into a yes There's no way her body would have reacted like that if she didn't want itI just had sex She stopped struggling so she changed her mind She totally wanted me Finally I was able to pry sex outta her Etc etc Some people/guys don't want to believe the rape statistics because then that means a lot of guys out there are rapists. Somewhat akin to what former U.S. Representative Todd Aiken said.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 1, 2015 20:23:05 GMT -5
Some of the disbelief probably lies with the fact that most of these guys don't walk away thinking yeah I'm a rapist! Instead they think: Look how I turned her no into a yes There's no way her body would have reacted like that if she didn't want it I just had sex She stopped struggling so she changed her mind She totally wanted me Finally I was able to pry sex outta her Etc etc Some people/guys don't want to believe the rape statistics because then that means a lot of guys out there are rapists. i think the other aspect of this is that most guys think they are nice/respectful/gentlemanly/good looking/funny/etc. if you think of yourself that way, then you probably think that OTHER people think of you that way. that is often not the case. women often view men as a THREAT to them. it is hard for a "good guy" to get his head around, but it is a fact. therefore, the fact that you are good with cocktail conversation ultimately doesn't amount to much. just sayin'. True. And then there's the "nice guys" that aren't really that nice to girls afterall but they think they are. Like an ex-friend who'd only hit on me when drunk and his relationship was going to hell and complain about all the assholes I dated. Cuz a guy who only hits on me when in a relationship and drunk is such a catch. *eyeroll*
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 20:27:47 GMT -5
Seriously. I've been thinking about this more and more and wondering why more men.. with butt cracks showing, going TOPLESS of all things! don't get raped?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2015 20:52:41 GMT -5
Even if I believed that chart was accurate (I don't but let's pretend that I do), Maimonides made a good point when he said "It is better and more satisfactory to acquit a thousand guilty persons than to put a single innocent one to death." Now, granted, long term prison isn't death... but the theory applies here as well. Better a thousand guilty go free than one innocent be punished unjustly.
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