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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 15:11:51 GMT -5
Oh. Yeah. I didn't get that. Sorry. Thanks
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 3, 2015 15:21:31 GMT -5
There is no such thing as opinion, there are only facts. Facts can be true or false.
Actually, adding "I think" or "I feel" to something makes it a fact. It is a fact that you think that or feel that. It is a fact that you feel like something which is false is true. Your feelings are facts.
I can fly. Fact, but false most likely. I believe I can fly. Fact, could be true if you really believe you can fly.
We simply assign the term "opinion" to our own thoughts when we are unsure, or to the thoughts of others when we are unsure of their statements. Same for when we cannot be sure (i.e. "ghosts are real" is a fact, though maybe true or untrue. Since we can't definitively say, many just label it opinion. That doesn't change that it is either true or untrue) You're confusing "fact" with "opinion presented as fact". I contend that "fact" is used both in the sense of "something that is surely true" and "something generally believed to be true, that should be reasonably considered true unless proven otherwise". Your statement, "I can fly.", is neither of these (unless you can indeed fly). It does qualify as opinion presented as fact, however. Some facts are presented as opinions (usually to obtain a more passive voice), some opinions are presented as facts, and some opinions are mistakenly interpreted as facts in the absence of "I think...", "I believe...", "It seems..." qualifiers. Thus the presentation of a statement (fact or opinion) has no definite bearing on whether the statement is factual. It's up to the reader to discern the writer's intended degree of certainty, and to assess the factual merit of his/her arguments. Case in point: this post clearly doesn't use any qualifiers besides "I contend...", but I expect that based on that prominent qualifier and the somewhat subjective nature of the topic, readers will interpret this post as my reasonable opinion, which is precisely how I interpreted yours.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Aug 3, 2015 15:31:08 GMT -5
You could use "I think" or "I feel" to pool ideas in a discussion. Its not an absolute.....its a tendency towards a particular argument over another
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 3, 2015 16:09:39 GMT -5
It's, well. That's my opinion, so you can't question it. It's just it.
That's human nature. We are programmed to decide first and look for evidence to support our opinion later. It's how we have survived all these millenia. You couldn't afford to stand around and debate if that was really a saber tooth tiger or not, your dumb ass would have been eaten and taken out of the gene pool. Better to run first and the realize later you were wrong.
It takes A LOT of effort to work against this. That is why blind/double blind studies exist. My PIs have to be very careful to not mention to me what they expect as a result b/c my brain will automatically program itself to watch for those results and screen out the rest. Later things will be called into question if it is discovered I knew a potenital answer ahead of time. I have to come to the same number as them as independently as possible.
We're not even aware we do it. You have to activelt work NOT to do it. So you can get pissed with them or accept it for what it is. I am sure when put under the microscope there are things you would be equally as guilty of clinging onto. Everyone does it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 16:21:14 GMT -5
"It's funny you feel that way when the data proves the opposite. Why do you think your perception is so far off?" Perceptions about what's? Could you clarify for me? Thanks I'm not sure exactly what this is in reference to..? Sorry, it was in reference to someone like the one that said she feels like she is losing her rights. It's easy to quantify the fact that women have more rights now than previously, so why is her perception so far off.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 16:43:36 GMT -5
I've noticed that for some people a relationship/friendship is kind of like a "competition". If there's any sort of 'disagreement" or even a difference of opinion about something inconsequetial - it's all out of balance and one side of the friendship needs to 'win' by actively debating (or arguing) so that both people are in 'agreement'. I think they work under the premise that if you don't both agree on something - their side of the arguement is 'right' and they need to 'win' by getting you to agree with them. someone has to "win" and someone has to "lose"... there is no 'agree to disagree' there is no "well, I don't really want to do X - and X is more of an inconvenience to me (versus something you HATE to do or something that makes you uncomfortable) BUT you really want to do X so, OK, this time will do X - I dont' need to get my way this time." And there are no issues or people worthy playing that energy sucking game
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 3, 2015 16:49:01 GMT -5
If I look up the data and it doesn't conform to what I thought I felt, then I examine why my belief might have been at odds with the data, better understand where I was coming from and accommodate my thinking to accept the new information. Doesn't everybody? It Isn't them being nit picky, it's me, probably. They are like, it's my opinion, so you can't ask me questions about it or suggest it might not be true, because it's my opinion. So. That's all. This is probably a dumb question, but why do you have to be right? I couldn't care less if somejne said this June was colder than last June. I certainly wouldn't go find data to support it just to prove I was right. And I would be irritated if any friend constantly felt the nerve to tell me my opinion is always wrong
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 17:28:11 GMT -5
If I look up the data and it doesn't conform to what I thought I felt, then I examine why my belief might have been at odds with the data, better understand where I was coming from and accommodate my thinking to accept the new information. Doesn't everybody? It Isn't them being nit picky, it's me, probably. They are like, it's my opinion, so you can't ask me questions about it or suggest it might not be true, because it's my opinion. So. That's all. This is probably a dumb question, but why do you have to be right? I couldn't care less if somejne said this June was colder than last June. I certainly wouldn't go find data to support it just to prove I was right. And I would be irritated if any friend constantly felt the nerve to tell me my opinion is always wrong I wouldn't argue about weather. It was just a generic, non controversial example. That's the question isn't it. Do I have to accept that every statement with 'I believe' in front of it is an opinion not to be challenged? I don't challenge beliefs. I don't question opinions that meet the criteria of cannot be proven. I might give my opinion or interpretation, but there goes, everyone makes their own decisions. But I guess I haven't felt that facts in the guise of opinion are sacred. So I guess I need to question why I feel I need to challenge potential misconception or error of fact.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 3, 2015 17:28:32 GMT -5
If I look up the data and it doesn't conform to what I thought I felt, then I examine why my belief might have been at odds with the data, better understand where I was coming from and accommodate my thinking to accept the new information. Doesn't everybody? It Isn't them being nit picky, it's me, probably. They are like, it's my opinion, so you can't ask me questions about it or suggest it might not be true, because it's my opinion. So. That's all. This is probably a dumb question, but why do you have to be right? I couldn't care less if somejne said this June was colder than last June. I certainly wouldn't go find data to support it just to prove I was right. And I would be irritated if any friend constantly felt the nerve to tell me my opinion is always wrong Exactly. There must be other neutral things you can talk about with these people. Also, being preached to constantly gets old fast.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 3, 2015 17:30:22 GMT -5
Yes. I'm overthinking whether any of my friendships are worth continuing. So, example. If I say. This June was colder than last. This is a statement of fact. It can be proven true or untrue. So, if I say instead, I feel like this June was colder than last. Is it now suddenly an opinion and we have to ignore whether data proves it true or false, since it's 'just an opinion'... You do not have to ignore, because it is an opinion. But perhaps you should choose to.
Would you prefer to be right or happy?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 17:34:02 GMT -5
Yes. I'm overthinking whether any of my friendships are worth continuing. So, example. If I say. This June was colder than last. This is a statement of fact. It can be proven true or untrue. So, if I say instead, I feel like this June was colder than last. Is it now suddenly an opinion and we have to ignore whether data proves it true or false, since it's 'just an opinion'... You do not have to ignore, because it is an opinion. But perhaps you should choose to.
Would you prefer to be right or happy?
I think it's more can I continue to fool myself into thinking in happy constantly surrounded by people who are so different from me, with whom I can't have any kind of intellectual conversation because it is viewed as an attack to offer another view...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 17:35:54 GMT -5
This is probably a dumb question, but why do you have to be right? I couldn't care less if somejne said this June was colder than last June. I certainly wouldn't go find data to support it just to prove I was right. And I would be irritated if any friend constantly felt the nerve to tell me my opinion is always wrong Exactly. There must be other neutral things you can talk about with these people. Also, being preached to constantly gets old fast. I'm sick if talking about kids and breast feeding and homeschooling ... Once in awile when the conversation of politics or religion or social issues comes up if like to have a meaningful conversation in which I feel like a contributor who doesn't have to walk on eggshells.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 3, 2015 17:48:08 GMT -5
Exactly. There must be other neutral things you can talk about with these people. Also, being preached to constantly gets old fast. I'm sick if talking about kids and breast feeding and homeschooling ... Once in awile when the conversation of politics or religion or social issues comes up if like to have a meaningful conversation in which I feel like a contributor who doesn't have to walk on eggshells. I learned that you can't really have those discussions with most people. It's kinda sad but it's true as far as I've seen. I've apparently lost the respect of people here over a difference of opinion, and this is just an online forum.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 3, 2015 18:09:55 GMT -5
I have some people on Facebook removed from my feed because their aggressive opinion-sharing gets my ire up. Those who are overly virulent get defriended quickly. I have removed both conservative and liberal people from my feed. From the liberals: posts on how everyone "deserves" free health care, education, and a living wage, and from the conservatives: posts on how no one dissimilar to them deserves the right to live their lives as they please. People still in my feed: Pictures of babies, food, and general geekery.
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sarcasticgirl
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Post by sarcasticgirl on Aug 3, 2015 18:26:02 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 18:35:36 GMT -5
Yes. I'm overthinking whether any of my friendships are worth continuing. So, example. If I say. This June was colder than last. This is a statement of fact. It can be proven true or untrue. So, if I say instead, I feel like this June was colder than last. Is it now suddenly an opinion and we have to ignore whether data proves it true or false, since it's 'just an opinion'... You do not have to ignore, because it is an opinion. But perhaps you should choose to.
Would you prefer to be right or happy?
You know what, I can't be happy if "it", whatever it is, is not right, as in accurate or true. It's not about me being right and you being wrong, I want us both to be right. It is not an either/or for me. I can not be happy endorsing something I know to be wrong, inaccurate or untrue.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 3, 2015 19:36:20 GMT -5
Exactly. There must be other neutral things you can talk about with these people. Also, being preached to constantly gets old fast. I'm sick if talking about kids and breast feeding and homeschooling ... Once in awile when the conversation of politics or religion or social issues comes up if like to have a meaningful conversation in which I feel like a contributor who doesn't have to walk on eggshells. But an opinion is just that. I am a very opinionated person and I know darn well you and I would disagree on almost everything. That doesn't mean I'm right or you are right, we just hold different beliefs That said, I don't post political shit on facebook nor do most of my real life friends no my opinion on most social issues. I have several real life friends that have had abortions and told me so because they don't know im a staunch pro-lifer!lol
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 19:50:55 GMT -5
I'm sick if talking about kids and breast feeding and homeschooling ... Once in awile when the conversation of politics or religion or social issues comes up if like to have a meaningful conversation in which I feel like a contributor who doesn't have to walk on eggshells. I learned that you can't really have those discussions with most people. It's kinda sad but it's true as far as I've seen. I've apparently lost the respect of people here over a difference of opinion, and this is just an online forum. Yeah, it's really sad. That's probably why I spend way too much time on these boards b/c IRL I only have a few treasured friends who can have an intelligent discussion of anything more controversial than margarine vs. butter. I had a horrible awakening several years back when a "friend" sent me an email about a purported change in our state's mandated educational curriculum. A very cursory Internet search showed that this was not true, just another Internet rumor. I responded politely that the information was not true and his reply was "the truth doesn't matter". I have never been able to move past this statement and have distanced myself from activities where this person and his family are present. As for FB, I soon found the "keep my friends" button where I can select not to receive items in their feed. I am sure some of them do the same to me because I know we are not on the same political or religious spectrum.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 3, 2015 20:50:09 GMT -5
irony (n.) YMAMers opining about those poor, hopeless individuals with wrongheaded ideas you couldn't blast out of their minds with dynamite.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 3, 2015 21:00:14 GMT -5
irony (n.) YMAMers opining about those poor, hopeless individuals with wrongheaded ideas you couldn't blast out of their minds with dynamite. Lmao
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DagnyT
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Post by DagnyT on Aug 3, 2015 21:56:21 GMT -5
I am a more progressive, agnostic homeschooling in a conservative, religious area. I help run a VERY popular inclusive homeschholing group which is probably more popular because I hardly ever voice 'my side' and if I do it's in ways that search out common ground. I feel like I need to constantly look at evidence and observe and those things can change "my side" ... But am I required to give "their side" equal consideration when it's mainly "opinion" statements with nothing else? Am I just throwing a hissy fit? I don't think so...? Oped, Just to be blunt, don't discuss these issues and just ignore them when others bring them up. I have been a homeschool mom for 17 years. I am a somewhat conservative Christian. Homeschool groups usually tend to have some very opinionated people in them. In my area (rural North Carolina) most homeschool groups are conservative Christians. Many of these individuals (not all because I don't agree with them) are going to espouse these beliefs. It doesn't matter to them if they are based on fact or not. They really feel this way. They have either heard in it in church, saw it on tv, or read it in the news or on a blog. If someone else believes it, then it is fact to them. I don't say this to be mean to them or to judge them. The ones I know are great, loving people. They just have a strong opinion about religious and social topics. I learned a long time ago that it is best to not discuss these topics with fellow homeschoolers. They are mostly frustrated with a worldview that is different from theirs, just like a lot of progressive, agnostics are frustrated with conservative Christians for having a differing worldview from them. My opinion is that it really is a agree to disagree situation. Most people are not going to change their views no matter what facts are presented. JMHO.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 3, 2015 22:49:46 GMT -5
Don't listen to her! You are op ed: opinionated educator. Your very name demands pedantry! Stir that pot like you've got something to prove, and when they run away covering their ears, hunt 'em down and scream the stupid out of 'em. They'll thank you for it in the long run. Trust me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 4, 2015 8:30:49 GMT -5
::You're confusing "fact" with "opinion presented as fact".::
I'm actually confusing fact with something I'd call "declaration of fact", or rather I'm using the terms interchangeably in order to make the 2 terms (fact & opinion) to be more opposing than they actually are. Primarily because fact vs opinion doesn't align very well as opposites, since all kinds of things that people state to be facts aren't actually true, but also aren't meant to be "opinions" either. If we use the real definition of fact, we're really saying "is something true or is something opinion"...which leaves a whole universe of things that don't fit either bucket.
For example: This water is 45 degrees. I'm not intending that to be an opinion, I'm meaning it to be a statement of fact. However, the water is 47 degrees, so it's not really a "fact" because it isn't true. It's also not an opinion, it's simply a declaration of fact that is untrue.
I think the distinction is somewhat important in that so many seem to feel they are entitled to their "opinion" which is really just a declaration of fact that isn't true...and in many cases can be "proven" to be untrue.
I probably do intend the example of "vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate" to be an opinion, which is why it is sort of light on specifics (what's better about it? to who?) Once the specifics get defined, it's either true or untrue.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Aug 4, 2015 10:49:07 GMT -5
I guess the point I must be at is deciding if these are people who I need to keep peace with/ care what they think... they wont commit mm it acts of terrorism They aren't 50+ set though. Again, I'm sure area is an issue. I should have moved a few years ago... Sigh. What you are describing is very much what most of the homeschooling groups here are like and my area is way more populated and progressive than yours I think. The problem is what moved most into homeschooling was their want to keep their kids away from "others ideas". It doesn't surprise me that they also don't want "others ideas" in their homeschooling group. DH even got to the point where he has said he won't allow a parent in his classroom when he teaches as an adjunct ever. He actually probably would, if it was something like a physical disability, but he doesn't want to say that. He has had one too many parents who home schooled their kid insist on sitting in class with them, in college, so they could do their work for them and argue constantly disrupting the entire class. He actually was told he is biased against homeschooling. His response was he isn't biased against homeschooling just idiots and assholes. PS I should say he has had plenty of home schooled students who were good students who were well prepared to be in college that he truly enjoyed having in his class. The parents of those kids never did or seemed to want to control/interfer in their kids college classes though.
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quince
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Post by quince on Aug 4, 2015 11:14:19 GMT -5
....Parents sitting in college classrooms.... Holy...moly.
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