Free college in Germany

[Deleted]

So, I read about this on another forum and was intrigued.

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

I brought it up with older son's Dad and he is as well and actually had been meaning to mention something to me about it.  He's been considering moving his family to Europe after our son hits 18 and now is thinking Germany...not that he'd have to move there for our son to go to school there.

I'm not sure the money savings would be as great for us because tuition is pretty affordable here and I'm thinking we'll probably be eligible for grants that could cover as much as half of it, but I just think it would be an awesome experience.  Right now he's talking about going to school in our town, which is a good school, but I'd like him to have the opportunity to spread his wings some.  I'm afraid he'll do what I did.  Just plant myself and limit my options.

So anyhow.  Discuss the advantages and drawbacks.  What's COL like over there?  The schools are supposed to be top notch, but it also shows most pursue degrees in the liberal arts.  I see DS going into Natural sciences or Engineering.

[tskeeter]

I wonder what the admission requriements are.  But, if a kid can get in, it would be an outstanding experience even if it wasn't cheaper than school in the US.

[phil5185]

I see DS going into Natural sciences or Engineering.

How is his German?

[The Captain]

Jul 30, 2015 15:48:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

So, I read about this on another forum and was intrigued.

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

I brought it up with older son's Dad and he is as well and actually had been meaning to mention something to me about it.  He's been considering moving his family to Europe after our son hits 18 and now is thinking Germany...not that he'd have to move there for our son to go to school there.

I'm not sure the money savings would be as great for us because tuition is pretty affordable here and I'm thinking we'll probably be eligible for grants that could cover as much as half of it, but I just think it would be an awesome experience.  Right now he's talking about going to school in our town, which is a good school, but I'd like him to have the opportunity to spread his wings some.  I'm afraid he'll do what I did.  Just plant myself and limit my options.

So anyhow.  Discuss the advantages and drawbacks.  What's COL like over there?  The schools are supposed to be top notch, but it also shows most pursue degrees in the liberal arts.  I see DS going into Natural sciences or Engineering.

I'm actually surprised to see this.  At some of the companies I've worked at the bulk of the engineers were German.  One of my friends is an engineer and he frequently has to work with teams from Germany on multi-national projects.  When I think engineering I think Germany, Japan, and Switzerland - in that order.

If you can swing it, and it doesn't break the bank - I think it would be a fantastic experience. 

Coming from a small town, would he be ok with the cultural shock?  How about language barriers?

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2015 15:54:12 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

I see DS going into Natural sciences or Engineering.

How is his German?

The schools teach in English.

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2015 15:54:42 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Coming from a small town, would he be ok with the cultural shock?  How about language barriers?

The moving to a city thing would worry me.  He's not a crowds person.  Language wouldn't be an issue on campus, but yeah, wandering around town.  However, one of the things he's been looking forward to about high school more than anything is being able to take German.  He's been talking about that for years.

[Robert not Bobby]

Jul 30, 2015 15:48:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

So, I read about this on another forum and was intrigued.

www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

I brought it up with older son's Dad and he is as well and actually had been meaning to mention something to me about it.  He's been considering moving his family to Europe after our son hits 18 and now is thinking Germany...not that he'd have to move there for our son to go to school there.

I'm not sure the money savings would be as great for us because tuition is pretty affordable here and I'm thinking we'll probably be eligible for grants that could cover as much as half of it, but I just think it would be an awesome experience.  Right now he's talking about going to school in our town, which is a good school, but I'd like him to have the opportunity to spread his wings some.  I'm afraid he'll do what I did.  Just plant myself and limit my options.

So anyhow.  Discuss the advantages and drawbacks.  What's COL like over there?  The schools are supposed to be top notch, but it also shows most pursue degrees in the liberal arts.  I see DS going into Natural sciences or Engineering.

Germany is a powerhouse...it is because of some of those first German immigrants to this country 250-300 years ago that it was once great.

The Schools are among the best in the world, particularly in engineering.

Germans are Janus faced...they know how to have fun, but they are also incredibly focused. Your son needs to be disciplined and study hard.

COL, I couldn't tell you in comparison to where you are in the states. (google is your friend)

Europe is awesome, go for it, if it makes sense to you...and it is not forever, if it is not for you.

[Bonny]

Interesting. I'm surprised that the entry requirements are so easy.

Germany DOES have a demographic problem with an aging population but they haven't exactly been welcoming to their greatest immigrant population; Turkish guest workers. Their attitude is similar to some folks here in the U.S. towards Mexicans.

After WWII when so many working aged German men died, Germany allowed guest workers (mainly from Turkey) to do the manual work many Germans didn't want to do. 50 years later there's still a high concentration in labor.

During our years in Bonn 2009-2012 the country was in recession (and many blamed the US loan melt-down even though Deutsche Bank was a huge buyer of same stupid loans). There was definitely some resentment of Ex pats and open comments about why Germany was allowing foreigners to work when their own people were looking for work. Now it seems they are looking for qualified workers again. Rinse & Repeat!

minnesotapaintlady, I would check it out. I think the worst thing that would happen is if they discontinued the program (or made it so expensive) that your son might need to transfer back to the U.S. Regardless, I think living abroad is a wonderful experience.

And FWIW, most Germans who go through a college track have five years of English therefore your son wouldn't have a problem communicating with his classmates.

Also FWIW, I wish I had taken German (as well as the French I took in HS and college). It is  but English is a Germanic language and I understand English so much better because of it.

[Deleted]

I'm glad to hear the schools are known for their engineering.  I've literally just started looking into this today and all I had to go on was what was in that article. 

[Deleted]

Jul 30, 2015 17:26:28 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Interesting. I'm surprised that the entry requirements are so easy.

Germany DOES have a demographic problem with an aging population but they haven't exactly been welcoming to their greatest immigrant population; Turkish guest workers. Their attitude is similar to some folks here in the U.S. towards Mexicans.

After WWII when so many working aged German men died, Germany allowed guest workers (mainly from Turkey) to do the manual work many Germans didn't want to do. 50 years later there's still a high concentration in labor.

During our years in Bonn 2009-2012 the country was in recession (and many blamed the US loan melt-down even though Deutsche Bank was a huge buyer of same stupid loans). There was definitely some resentment of Ex pats and open comments about why Germany was allowing foreigners to work when their own people were looking for work. Now it seems they are looking for qualified workers again. Rinse & Repeat!

minnesotapaintlady, I would check it out. I think the worst thing that would happen is if they discontinued the program (or made it so expensive) that your son might need to transfer back to the U.S. Regardless, I think living abroad is a wonderful experience.

And FWIW, most Germans who go through a college track have five years of English therefore your son wouldn't have a problem communicating with his classmates.

Also FWIW, I wish I had taken German (as well as the French I took in HS and college). It is  but English is a Germanic language and I understand English so much better because of it.

He's only 13, so they may cancel the program before he's even old enough to start, but I really love the idea.  I have yet to ask him his opinion though.  He's in Colorado getting more experiences. 

He's been asking for the Rosetta Stone software for learning German for a couple years now, I'm not sure why I never bought it since I'm normally, "Oh, you want something educational?  You got it!"  I think I was worried he would lose interest right away.

[joemilitary]

The cost of living is kind of high. But for free college and the experience definitely worth it I think.

Make sure the child is mature enough to be on their own and that far away though.

[Deleted]

Schooling in Europe is very different than the USA.  From what I understand in Germany, the standard HS education is much closer to the US associates degree.  College is free to those that get admitted, but which majors you can pick are more controlled.  So yes, it is very easy to get a free engineering degree.  Ironically, it is very hard to get a free art degree from what I understand.  The whole education system is very practical in building the needed "workforce".  The only difference from communism is that they don't assign people to a particular career like China does.  

So competition for those art degrees is very stiff as there is minimal demand in the workforce and as such minimal positions available at college.  Doctors, engineers, etc are held to similar standards for admittance as the US, but almost everyone that meets the base entrance requirements is accepted and goes for free as there is a shortage of workers in these positions.  Ironically, for many the HS education is enough to get a livable job, so many don't have any desire to go to college as culturally it is not the "party" or requirement that people here view as a needed experience.  

This was explained to my by the French workers I was working with at the time.  France is more liberal than Germany, but has some similarity in high tax funding for college.  They said this is sustainable because everyone doesn't get to go to college and HS teaches everyone what they need to fill the "middle" jobs in society (secretary, shift supervisors, etc).  So really only the professional level go to college.

[Bonny]

Jul 30, 2015 17:50:58 GMT -5 joemilitary said:

The cost of living is kind of high. But for free college and the experience definitely worth it I think.

It depends on what city the university is in. Berlin is very cheap for a capital city and has lots of housing.

[Bonny]

Jul 30, 2015 19:32:50 GMT -5 @logicnow said:

Schooling in Europe is very different than the USA.  From what I understand in Germany, the standard HS education is much closer to the US associates degree.  College is free to those that get admitted, but which majors you can pick are more controlled.  So yes, it is very easy to get a free engineering degree.  Ironically, it is very hard to get a free art degree from what I understand.  The whole education system is very practical in building the needed "workforce".  The only difference from communism is that they don't assign people to a particular career like China does.  

So competition for those art degrees is very stiff as there is minimal demand in the workforce and as such minimal positions available at college.  Doctors, engineers, etc are held to similar standards for admittance as the US, but almost everyone that meets the base entrance requirements is accepted and goes for free as there is a shortage of workers in these positions.  Ironically, for many the HS education is enough to get a livable job, so many don't have any desire to go to college as culturally it is not the "party" or requirement that people here view as a needed experience.  

This was explained to my by the French workers I was working with at the time.  France is more liberal than Germany, but has some similarity in high tax funding for college.  They said this is sustainable because everyone doesn't get to go to college and HS teaches everyone what they need to fill the "middle" jobs in society (secretary, shift supervisors, etc).  So really only the professional level go to college.

In both France and Germany kids have to take tests at age 13 that separate them into various tracts such as technical vs professional. It's very hard for a child who has tested into the "technical" tract to make the switch into "professional" down the road. 

[joemilitary]

Jul 30, 2015 19:36:33 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jul 30, 2015 17:50:58 GMT -5 joemilitary said:

The cost of living is kind of high. But for free college and the experience definitely worth it I think.

It depends on what city the university is in. Berlin is very cheap for a capital city and has lots of housing.

While we were stationed in Germany we went to visit Berlin twice, and I wouldn't say it was "cheap"......it's not super expensive like Switzerland or New York city or something, but I wouldn't say it was cheap (compared in general to the states).  Although maybe now with the Euro to dollar rate it might be....but you can't count on that lasting forever.

[Bonny]

Jul 30, 2015 20:23:08 GMT -5 joemilitary said:

Jul 30, 2015 19:36:33 GMT -5 Bonny said:

It depends on what city the university is in. Berlin is very cheap for a capital city and has lots of housing.

While we were stationed in Germany we went to visit Berlin twice, and I wouldn't say it was "cheap"......it's not super expensive like Switzerland or New York city or something, but I wouldn't say it was cheap (compared in general to the states).  Although maybe now with the Euro to dollar rate it might be....but you can't count on that lasting forever.

What years were you there? We lived in Bonn from 7/09-6/12 and visited Berlin in 2011. Compared to Bonn, housing was cheap and there were several places where squatters had taken over old buildings in East Berlin. After getting rid of the Wall(s) and all the real estate they took up, there's plenty of land for housing. Berlin is also a great walking city and has plentiful and inexpensive public transit. I didn't think food was very expensive either. Not sure what else a college student would need.

[Apple]

Sending the info to DS, I think it could be great for him (plus, Munich was one of my favorite places on our trip).

[mroped]

I'm not absolutely positive if this is still going on but in the 80s in order to be admitted to college you had to pass an exam as in 1000 candidates competing for 200 seats.
Unlike US, they wouldn't add another 2-300 seats but make the applicants compete for those available. That way you are sure to get the top brain and will power. Fewer drop outs too because of what it takes to be admitted.
The educational system is a bit at a higher level. Not everyone wants to go to college. Not all positions in the field require a college degree.
I finished HS in Eastern Europe and went for an associate here in the U.S.
I was bored out of my mind in physics classes since I studied that stuff in like 9th grade and took an advanced math class in order to avoid the same problem.

[bobosensei]

I'm still in Germany.  When we arrived in 2009 the exchange rate was awful.  Something like 1.45 to 1 euro.  Only in the last 6-8 months has the dollar become more even.  My perception of the expense in living in Germany is based on how much rent is, but being here with the US military we live in little bubbles where housing is outrageously expensive.  This happens because the landlords know what each rank can get and the continually push rent just slightly higher and eventually the government raises the money they give and the cycle repeats.  Outside of rent which would be much more affordable for a student, I find groceries to be cheaper here now that the dollar is stronger.  I can get a liter of organic milk for a euro, sometimes less, and regular milk is as cheap as 55 euro cents a liter.  Staples and necessities are inexpensive (produce, dairy, bread), but junk food and stuff like clothing can be much more expensive than Americans are used to for example coke or blue jeans.  Though for clothing you can find a lot of places like H&M where stuff is cheaper, but doesn't last.

Like someone else said in Germany the kids are tested when they are younger and separated between college track and trade track.  Not just any old paste for brains can go to university just because their parents want them to.  After the kids are separated the ones set to go to university have much more difficult material in high school.  They get their bachelors degrees in 3 years so they are starting out with more knowledge under their belt.  So if your DS is just a regular student making regular grades it might be hard for him to keep up.  And living overseas will make the usual freshman homesickness much worse because he won't just be growing up and spreading his wings he'll be in a totally different environment.  Not everyone is cut out to live here.  The American expats I know come in 2 groups.  One group loves it, the other counts down their days until they can move back home.  Some people find the lifestyle change too drastic for more than a vacation.  Now for a college kid the biggest change for your DS will be legal drinking.  I mean lots of college kids find a way to drink, but here it will be completely legal.  While pot is not legal in many of the big cities it is tolerated as long as people aren't being disruptive.  And European kids tend to be more reserved so you'll need to think whether or not he will fit in.  DH's 18 year old brother came to visit us, and he tried to befriend a group of kids playing soccer.  Now he is pretty cocky, and when the kids wouldn't let him play he got his feelings hurt.

With all of that said it would be a fantastic opportunity.  You can live in Germany easily without being fluent in the language.  Any area where there is a university is going to be a bit more cosmopolitan than the average German village.  And all the young people speak English.  So until he starts picking it up he will be totally fine.  I expect that he would bond closely to the other international students in the school, especially other Americans.  Your biggest worry should probably be him wanting to stay here permanently after his schooling.

You can learn quite a bit from the university websites.  Click on the international section and boom everything is in English.  I checked out the closest university to me as well as Berlin.  Unfortunately none of the english language degrees interest me.

[schildi]

Jul 30, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Jul 30, 2015 15:54:12 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

How is his German?

The schools teach in English.

Will need a visa for study purposes which requires passing a language test. Language test won't be in English. Better know some German .....

[bobosensei]

Jul 31, 2015 2:40:32 GMT -5 schildi said:

Jul 30, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The schools teach in English.

Will need a visa for study purposes which requires passing a language test. Language test won't be in English. Better know some German .....

Can you post something that shows international students are required to pass a language test?  General residency, sure, but I think students are exempt.

I read though this www.uni-regensburg.de/international/internationale-studierende/medien/dokumente/auslaenderrecht_fuer_studierende_web.pdf and there is a section that mentions the 2005 residence law that requires the "integration course" for people living in Germany on a long term basis, but it also specifically says that international students are not eligible to participate in the integration course though they may be able to do so on a space available basis.  

I attended a volkshochschule for the first of the 6 different language courses that make up the "integration course" the only difference being that I paid a fee where it was free for most of the rest of the class because they were part of the "integration course."  There were 3 different ladies in the class whose husbands were attending university that I got to know.  None of their husbands spoke German which was why the wives were taking the classes.  My German classes were 5 days a week 4.5 hours a day, plus I had homework.  I wouldn't have been able to do those classes and a be a full time student.

Now I totally agree that people coming here do need to learn some German.  And it looks like you can get a residence permit for up to 18 months just to take German language courses in preparation for entering a degree program.  But nothing I am reading says that international students have to take a language test in order to be able to get/keep a student visa and residence permit.  Obviously that changes once the degree program is over if the person is seeking a work visa, but during the schooling portion it doesn't look like it is required.

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2015 2:40:32 GMT -5 schildi said:

Jul 30, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The schools teach in English.

Will need a visa for study purposes which requires passing a language test. Language test won't be in English. Better know some German .....

The articles I've been reading all say not knowing German isn't an issue.  However, there's no way I'd send him over without at least having taken a couple years of it in high school.

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2015 2:01:26 GMT -5 bobosensei said:

 Your biggest worry should probably be him wanting to stay here permanently after his schooling.

Ha!  This is what I told his Dad.  I figured I could deal with him being gone for 4 years, but then what if he decides he loves it there and doesn't want to come back? 


As things are now, I do think it would be too much for him to be a freshman that far away and it sounds like he'd have to be an exceptional student to get in...in which case he'd probably get to go to a good school here for free anyhow.  I just thought it sounded like an amazing opportunity if he could get in as it probably would end up costing us about the same as if he went to a state school.

It's on our list of options and, to be honest, I'm trying to find something to fire him up about his current schooling.  He tests very high, but is lazy about school work and is on the verge of going to high school where grades count.  Maybe something like this would motivate him more than trying to get in the college 4 miles from his house.

[The Captain]

Jul 31, 2015 7:08:41 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Jul 31, 2015 2:40:32 GMT -5 schildi said:

Will need a visa for study purposes which requires passing a language test. Language test won't be in English. Better know some German .....

The articles I've been reading all say not knowing German isn't an issue.  However, there's no way I'd send him over without at least having taken a couple years of it in high school.

Yea that!  (I'm having icon issues)

I used to administer an expat/foreign national program with between 200-300 participants either in or out of the US.  Sending an individual overseas for a work assignment is expensive.  Sending a whole family (where one parent only can usually work) is even more so.

Our program covered a housing stipend, COLA, Tax equalization, language immersion, medical, and schooling for the children in the native language in the assigned country.  The company put a LOT of money into this to make sure it was a success.

The #1 reason an assignment failed?  The wife or children felt isolated and couldn't interact outside the (sometimes very) small expat community. Seeing as how an overseas assignment cost the company an average of about $100K per year per family that was an expensive failure.

We added a cultural immersion program and did some pre-assignment screening which helped a bit, but didn't solve 100%. 

So make sure your son can at least hack his way through German so he won't be isolated.  If nothing else, it will get him kudos from the local population for trying and break the ice.

Also, just the transition from small town to big city can be a shock.  Is there anyone in a big city you can send your son to visit so he gets some exposure?

[gs11rmb]

I grew up in Scotland and American students often found university to be quite challenging even though there was no language barrier.  In most European countries all testing (apart from math/science calculations) is an essay format.  When I decided to go to grad school in the U.S. I had to take the GRE and I found it quite difficult because I had never been trained to take multiple choice tests!  U.S. international students have the opposite problem and can find long written answers to be a challenge.

[Deleted]

Jul 31, 2015 8:15:52 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Also, just the transition from small town to big city can be a shock.  Is there anyone in a big city you can send your son to visit so he gets some exposure?

Not really.  My Dad lives in a suburb of MPLS and my sister is in St. Paul, but that's about it for city people in my family.  I get the culture shock though.  I went to NYC for the first time about 8 years ago and found myself hanging out by the only tree feeding a pigeon and freaked out.

My aunt that lives next door actually works in London and Amsterdam right now  She flies out for a couple weeks, then comes back for a few days then flies out again.  Not sure how long she's going to be doing that, but if it's going to be a while I could just send him off with her once.  She's always asking people to come with but there's that pesky airfare....

[Bonny]

Jul 31, 2015 2:40:32 GMT -5 schildi said:

Jul 30, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

The schools teach in English.

Will need a visa for study purposes which requires passing a language test. Language test won't be in English. Better know some German .....

We didn't need to know German to get our visa and residency permits.

But we did have the benefit of a relocation specialist who walked us through the process. I suspect that if the schools are looking for English speaking students they will have a similar program.

[milee]

It's funny this thread just came up. My DH and sons are visiting my MIL right now so are gone for 11 whole days (woo hoo!!!) but a package just arrived for the oldest son. In the package were textbooks - in German - including one geared for teens learning German "Deutsch Acktuell". Very odd, since he's been taking Mandarin in school for years, not German. Wonder if he has been thinking about going to college in Germany? Wouldn't surprise me at all; he's sometimes talked about going to college in England.

Not sure if they still have them, but in the past many of the large tech companies in Germany had really great internship programs for college engineering students. My husband got his Electrical Engineering degree from an English college, but he and many of his friends did tech internships in Germany. The internships were fantastic experiences and involved working alongside engineers and actually performing high level work while immersed in the company (unlike some of the American internships which are more of recruiting tools and don't always allow the students to do high level work). Probably has to do with Germany's mindset of providing training and formal training programs - the companies follow that culture as well.

 

[973beachbum]

If he wants to be an engineer, while I know most college programs in Europe are only 3 years, I highly doubt a degree in engineering is.  Most of our friends with degrees in engineering from Europe actually had 4-5 year programs.  I want to say the older people did only 4 but the younger ones it is 5.  And I am sure that is the basic ABET accredited type program that you would get here in the US for a BS.  I am not saying not to do it!  I just don't want anyone going into this thinking it will be shorter than in the US when in reality it could actually be a longer program than here.

I also found this article on it.  It reads very like what would be written on YM.  I found it funny that everyone here thinks US kids are slackers but it turns out the Germans are too.

 Graduation rates are already a problem in Germany, which is known for its “Dauerstudenten” or “eternal students.” As The Local reports, German students fail to graduate on time, and the average graduation age (following master’s degree) is around 28 years old.

www.forbes.com/sites/ccap/2014/10/03/there-is-not-such-thing-as-a-free-college-education/

[murphath]

Why don't you look into AFS high school student exchange program? Student lives with a host family in the foreign country for a high school year. Best way for your son to learn German. If he likes it, then he could consider the university program. One of my French teachers did this and ended up staying in France to complete the baccalaureat (very tough) before returning to the U.S. for college.

Don't know if Germany is the same, but in France your test scores during school determine your track. If you end up at the university as an engineering student, that's all you study. There's no general education coursework. 

At most U.S. colleges/universities there is a "year abroad" program. I spent my junior year (many years ago) in France. Pretty important since that was my major.   There was some homesickness involved but I loved my time over there.  Still love going to France.  Despite what people here say, the French people are very nice and love Americans.  You only experience a little surliness in Paris and they're like that to each other, too!  Last time I was in Paris (2013), they couldn't have been nicer.