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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 22, 2016 21:55:01 GMT -5
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 22, 2016 23:41:21 GMT -5
Just think what it might be if they weren't from that party of "Fiscal Conservatism".
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 22, 2016 23:53:06 GMT -5
Just think what it might be if they weren't from that party of "Fiscal Conservatism". the party of borrow and spend.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 24, 2016 8:15:52 GMT -5
When I said Mexican I meant that. Mexicans are leaving faster than coming. Yes South America illegal immigration might be slowed by a wall. Won't do anything for the great increases in Asian and Aftican illegals however. Overstaying visas can't be stopped by a wall... Where is the data? This was true four years ago when the economy was bad. Today all the illegals are gainfully employed and have no reason to go home, unless they are older, and retiring and going back home to live.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2016 8:23:01 GMT -5
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 24, 2016 8:30:46 GMT -5
5.6 Million illegal Mexican nationals residing in the U.S.? Everyone acknowledges it is over 10 million at a minimum, and closer to 12 million Mexicans. 5.6 million barely covers California Arizona and Texas. If you are counting adult population, possibly.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 24, 2016 8:31:44 GMT -5
When I said Mexican I meant that. Mexicans are leaving faster than coming. Yes South America illegal immigration might be slowed by a wall. Won't do anything for the great increases in Asian and Aftican illegals however. Overstaying visas can't be stopped by a wall... Where is the data? This was true four years ago when the economy was bad. Today all the illegals are gainfully employed and have no reason to go home, unless they are older, and retiring and going back home to live. Where is your data "all the illegals" are gainfully employed?
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Post by Opti on Mar 24, 2016 8:41:17 GMT -5
Maybe some will go back to work in the new Nabisco plant.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2016 9:09:02 GMT -5
That "Bible Belt" thing hasn't helped Cruz yet. I agreed with Cruz's strategy- and it may be too late, but he was wrong. It was a huge miscalculation and I don't know if there's time to fix it. The basic assumption of Ted Cruz has been my basic assumption for years- that long about Bush 41 in 1992, conservatives and evangelicals in particular got discouraged and just stopped turning out for RINOs. If we got a true blue conservative, that candidate would be, well- where Trump is now. The four to five million voters that abandoned the McCain and Romney campaigns would show up for a conservative. I don't know how else to say it: that's wrong. Evangelicals are going to Trump. Trump has won SC, he won MS, and even in places where Cruz edged out Trump- large numbers of conservatives and evangelicals are going for Trump. I can't say for sure why this is- it's a crazy year- but I suspect that it's not anger per se-- but FEAR. People are correctly terrified of radical islam on the march all over the globe. People know that the market is a bubble made of stimulus, QE, and low interest rates. People know the dollar is on the brink of collapse. T.H.E.Y. can talk all day long about growth and low unemployment, but those 98 million able bodied, working age people not working know different. People know the day of reckoning for 200 to 240 trillion in debt is coming. People know while we've been using up our military assets without replacements, and drawing down forces that China and Russia are building up. People know Iran is about to be a nuclear umbrella for ISIS. People know they're losing real income and purchasing power. They know the middle class is the smallest it's been in decades- and they are being bullied, used, walked on, and forgotten. They know the border is WIDE open with zero enforcement. So, when Cruz talks in abstraction about restoring the Constitution, they just could not give less of a fuck. When Trump talks about 1. Stemming the tide of immigration, 2. Sorting through the muslims from places where they hate us and want to kill us 3. Fair trade practices, and cracking down on currency manipulation and other cheating and 4. Rebuilding the military, and taking our killers off the leash to bomb ths SHIT out of ISIS, seize their assets, and make sure we're a country NOBODY wants to mess with, People are like, "The Constitution? What's that? I like this guy." LIV And I'll tell you something else that hasn't worked, and should probably stop: calling people stupid. I'm guilty of it, and upon reflection perhaps calling people idiots has not been an effective persuasion technique? Sure, there's a certain effectiveness to false labels. Look at the sheer number of conservatives afraid to be labeled racist, sexist, bigoted, homophobes? Look at the west's sick, twisted, and suicidal desire to avoid being labeled "islamophobic". I think LIV have more information than they are being given credit for. I had a Trump supporter explain to me that for him, it's not about ideology this election. He would prefer a conservative. It's not about character. He would prefer someone who tells the truth. For him, it's about "blowing shit up". He feels it is time to destroy the GOP, because if we don't destroy it, in his opinion, it can never be saved. He also feels like we don't have time for more GOP fucking around on immigration-- he feels we are very near the tipping point at which we are finally overrun by third world, ignorant, low skilled, susceptible to socialism voters and if we don't ruthlessly stop them now (which he believes Trump will do-- for the record, I don't believe Trump-- on anything-- but he does) we may not get another opportunity to vote for a Cruz. So, his attitude is we can blow up the GOP, save the country-- quite literally save it-- and then fix the mess later because we'll still have a shot at fixing it. He believes that Clinton will mean that we'll have lost the last opportunity to save the country-- and he does not believe the polls. He thinks Trump will beat her, Cruz will not.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 24, 2016 9:15:31 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP: Are you going to morph into a supporter of Mr. Trump once he wins the GOP nomination and is the only hope of taking down the redoubtable Ms. Hillary Clinton, or are you going to be a man without a party at that point? I've been told that FOX, the Heritage Foundation, even Mr. Limbaugh (to a degree) have all warmed up considerably to Mr. Trump in the past month. There's kind of a doleful acceptance that he's going to win the nomination and that Ms. Clinton is still the greater threat to America, making Mr. Trump their less-than-ideal-but-still-tolerable knight in shining armor. I ask because... you know... Mitt Romney.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 24, 2016 9:28:17 GMT -5
I understand this guy's wish to blow the GOP up. I'm not happy with what the party has become, either.
However, I would like to ask him how he thinks Trump will fix things. What does he imagine the country will look like after four years of a Trump presidency?
Usually when you destroy something, you build back something better in it's place. Trump has no game plan for running the country other than implementing changes that would favor his businesses, like removing the minimum wage requirement. That only improves things for Trump.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 24, 2016 9:35:10 GMT -5
Now it's all over the news that the "Republican cabol", whatever that is......I guess the insiders who control the party, are holding daily meetings to destroy Trump. They reportedly are even taping political Republicans who might be meeting with Trump to destroy them. Regardless of how Trump comes out of the primary, I have one thing to say. If he destroys the hierarchy of the party, and even gets Clinton elected, it will be the correct and best thing for the Republican party in the long term. Rip it apart and start anew. Make the party representative of it's actual base. I am tired of looking like it is a closeted extension of the Democratic party. Trump has the right idea.Build the wall on the border and tear down the Republican hierarchy and make the Republican party believe in their ideals. What exactly are his ideas?
Other than building a wall, deporting Muslims and replacing Obamacare with something that is 'so nice, so very very nice, everyone will love it!!'
In many ways is he is anti-GOP - neutral on Israel instead of supporting it, against Bush Jr's Gulf war. So what IS his platform?
Happyhoix,We don't know exactly what Trumps program is, We do know it is not "MORE FREE STUFF"
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 11:10:28 GMT -5
What exactly are his ideas?
Other than building a wall, deporting Muslims and replacing Obamacare with something that is 'so nice, so very very nice, everyone will love it!!'
In many ways is he is anti-GOP - neutral on Israel instead of supporting it, against Bush Jr's Gulf war. So what IS his platform?
Happyhoix,We don't know exactly what Trumps program is, We do know it is not "MORE FREE STUFF" and $13T in new debt. sounds like national bankruptcy to me. and i am not one to toss that term out lightly, as Virgil will tell you.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 24, 2016 14:21:36 GMT -5
Happyhoix,We don't know exactly what Trumps program is, We do know it is not "MORE FREE STUFF" and $13T in new debt. sounds like national bankruptcy to me. and i am not one to toss that term out lightly, as Virgil will tell you. Didn't you just have an argument with Virgil that the country was no where, ever, ever, ever near the end tipping point as far as the national debt was concerned? I am sure you suggested a much higher debt level was easily possible without ruining the country
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 14:46:54 GMT -5
and $13T in new debt. sounds like national bankruptcy to me. and i am not one to toss that term out lightly, as Virgil will tell you. Didn't you just have an argument with Virgil that the country was no where, ever, ever, ever near the end tipping point as far as the national debt was concerned? I am sure you suggested a much higher debt level was easily possible without ruining the country no. i have NEVER made the argument that we will "never get there". what i said is that we could handle roughly twice the debt level we have before getting into trouble. 32/19 is a lot closer to 2 than one.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2016 15:59:47 GMT -5
I wonder what happens to dj when California primary comes up, and puts Trump over the top? The primary is over for anyone willing to admit it. Trump's path to 1,237 committed delegates is not even that big a challenge. I don't even think it rises to the level of a "prediction" to say that Trump gets there, and does so fairly easily.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 16:11:16 GMT -5
I wonder what happens to dj when California primary comes up, and puts Trump over the top? The primary is over for anyone willing to admit it. Trump's path to 1,237 committed delegates is not even that big a challenge. I don't even think it rises to the level of a "prediction" to say that Trump gets there, and does so fairly easily. i am trying to not laugh at that analysis, but it is hard. the reason is that Trump has not even won 50% of the delegates so far. Trump is below trend. i think if he loses PA on April 26th, it is going to the convention. until then, i rate him at a 40% chance to win the primary before the convention. edit: another thing this guy misses is that the remaining states are MOSTLY not "open primaries" NOR "closed caucuses". MOST are CLOSED PRIMARIES.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2016 16:47:18 GMT -5
Yeah, I know Trump hasn't acquired half the delegates needed- it's part of my analysis: Trump needs 56.7% of the remaining delegates. The problem for Cruz is the problem that has plagued the establishment (and I am NOT calling Cruz establishment- as many might remember: I'm a CRUZ SUPPORTER) since the beginning-- the "splitter" candidates have soaked up too many delegates. The focus now is on the available delegates, and the way they will be allocated. Trump needs 481 delegates to get to 1,237 and Ted Cruz needs 789. I can count Trump's delegates pretty easily- CA, NY for starters. I don't see what Cruz does at this point except to hope to spoil for a contested convention?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 16:50:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I know Trump hasn't acquired half the delegates needed- it's part of my analysis: Trump needs 56.7% of the remaining delegates. The problem for Cruz is the problem that has plagued the establishment (and I am NOT calling Cruz establishment- as many might remember: I'm a CRUZ SUPPORTER) since the beginning-- the "splitter" candidates have soaked up too many delegates. The focus now is on the available delegates, and the way they will be allocated. Trump needs 481 delegates to get to 1,237 and Ted Cruz needs 789. I can count Trump's delegates pretty easily- CA, NY for starters. I don't see what Cruz does at this point except to hope to spoil for a contested convention? i am not saying Cruz will win. i am saying that Trump won't. not before the convention. i would not be so sure about CA, Paul. Trump is leading by 11%, but that primary is 10 weeks away. you can lose 10% in ten DAYS. also, i think Trump is in serious trouble in WI and PA. all in all, i don't think it is looking that rosy for him, right now? is it looking better for him than Cruz? SURE IT IS! let me just ask you one question- because it is important- do you think Cruz will go all the way to the convention, or drop out?
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 24, 2016 16:52:26 GMT -5
What I don't understand is why there is a question. Cruz is a true conservative and the majority of Americans are just waiting for the opportunity to vote for a true conservative. At least that is what I remember reading somewhere.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2016 16:58:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I know Trump hasn't acquired half the delegates needed- it's part of my analysis: Trump needs 56.7% of the remaining delegates. The problem for Cruz is the problem that has plagued the establishment (and I am NOT calling Cruz establishment- as many might remember: I'm a CRUZ SUPPORTER) since the beginning-- the "splitter" candidates have soaked up too many delegates. The focus now is on the available delegates, and the way they will be allocated. Trump needs 481 delegates to get to 1,237 and Ted Cruz needs 789. I can count Trump's delegates pretty easily- CA, NY for starters. I don't see what Cruz does at this point except to hope to spoil for a contested convention? i am not saying Cruz will win. i am saying that Trump won't. not before the convention. i would not be so sure about CA, Paul. Trump is leading by 11%, but that primary is 10 weeks away. you can lose 10% in ten DAYS. also, i think Trump is in serious trouble in WI and PA. all in all, i don't think it is looking that rosy for him, right now? is it looking better for him than Cruz? SURE IT IS! let me just ask you one question- because it is important- do you think Cruz will go all the way to the convention, or drop out? I think with ISIS stumping for Trump in Belgium, you're going to see a similar spike in support for Trump that we saw after Paris.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2016 17:01:37 GMT -5
What I don't understand is why there is a question. Cruz is a true conservative and the majority of Americans are just waiting for the opportunity to vote for a true conservative. At least that is what I remember reading somewhere. That's what I've been saying- I believed that. It was wrong. There's no clearer indication it was wrong than Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz has no buts. He's not "conservative, but" on literally anything. He is rated 100% (not 97%, not 98%, not 99%) conservative by Heritage Action. He has literally nothing to apologize to conservatives for. My opinion is that it's too late- and I disagree with dj. I think it's too late to even spoil for a contested convention. I think Trump gets to 1,237 well before July.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 17:07:28 GMT -5
i am not saying Cruz will win. i am saying that Trump won't. not before the convention. i would not be so sure about CA, Paul. Trump is leading by 11%, but that primary is 10 weeks away. you can lose 10% in ten DAYS. also, i think Trump is in serious trouble in WI and PA. all in all, i don't think it is looking that rosy for him, right now? is it looking better for him than Cruz? SURE IT IS! let me just ask you one question- because it is important- do you think Cruz will go all the way to the convention, or drop out? I think with ISIS stumping for Trump in Belgium, you're going to see a similar spike in support for Trump that we saw after Paris. you didn't answer my question. it wasn't about Trump
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 17:10:59 GMT -5
What I don't understand is why there is a question. Cruz is a true conservative and the majority of Americans are just waiting for the opportunity to vote for a true conservative. At least that is what I remember reading somewhere. That's what I've been saying- I believed that. It was wrong. There's no clearer indication it was wrong than Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz has no buts. He's not "conservative, but" on literally anything. He is rated 100% (not 97%, not 98%, not 99%) conservative by Heritage Action. He has literally nothing to apologize to conservatives for. My opinion is that it's too late- and I disagree with dj. I think it's too late to even spoil for a contested convention. I think Trump gets to 1,237 well before July. that's fine for you to disagree. i am comfortable with your disagreement.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 24, 2016 17:54:37 GMT -5
I think with ISIS stumping for Trump in Belgium, you're going to see a similar spike in support for Trump that we saw after Paris. you didn't answer my question. it wasn't about Trump Do I think Cruz will go all the way to the convention, or drop out? Interesting question. I honestly don't know the answer. I am suspicious of all the late breaking hard core establishment support for Cruz. Jeb Bush? These people HATE Ted Cruz. I am hoping that Cruz will not destroy his independent / outsider rep by going along with an establishment plan to torpedo the will of the voters. I honestly don't think the GOP will survive as a party if they beat Trump by shenanigans.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 24, 2016 19:26:51 GMT -5
Happyhoix,We don't know exactly what Trumps program is, We do know it is not "MORE FREE STUFF" and $13T in new debt. sounds like national bankruptcy to me. and i am not one to toss that term out lightly, as Virgil will tell you. He's right. I'm never heard him say "bankruptcy" and "US" in the same sentence. It took Mr. Trump's suicidal tax plan to plant the seed of fear in him, but he's coming around.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 24, 2016 19:26:56 GMT -5
you didn't answer my question. it wasn't about Trump Do I think Cruz will go all the way to the convention, or drop out? Interesting question. I honestly don't know the answer. I am suspicious of all the late breaking hard core establishment support for Cruz. Jeb Bush? These people HATE Ted Cruz. I am hoping that Cruz will not destroy his independent / outsider rep by going along with an establishment plan to torpedo the will of the voters. I honestly don't think the GOP will survive as a party if they beat Trump by shenanigans. Nate Silver actually pointed out how far Bush had to "reach" to endorse Cruz. Kasich would have been a far more logical choice. as to your second assertion, i think the party will be just fine. but you are the third person to say that now, so i would rather just watch and wait, so this is the last time i am going to say "the party will be just fine", until after the convention. there is a reasonable chance that, even in the case of a brokered convention, Trump will win. but according to party rules there are absolutely under NO obligation whatsoever to do that, if he fails to win on the first ballot.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 24, 2016 22:06:27 GMT -5
Happyhoix,We don't know exactly what Trumps program is, We do know it is not "MORE FREE STUFF" and $13T in new debt. sounds like national bankruptcy to me. and i am not one to toss that term out lightly, as Virgil will tell you. DJ I thought you had no problem with the debt?
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 25, 2016 7:24:16 GMT -5
Didn't you just have an argument with Virgil that the country was no where, ever, ever, ever near the end tipping point as far as the national debt was concerned? I am sure you suggested a much higher debt level was easily possible without ruining the country no. i have NEVER made the argument that we will "never get there". what i said is that we could handle roughly twice the debt level we have before getting into trouble. 32/19 is a lot closer to 2 than one. So as I understand it, if Trump adds 13 billion dollars to the deficit (13 billion will not double the debt) he will not bankrupt the country, and yet you said earlier he would. Am I understanding this correctly?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 25, 2016 7:52:59 GMT -5
no. i have NEVER made the argument that we will "never get there". what i said is that we could handle roughly twice the debt level we have before getting into trouble. 32/19 is a lot closer to 2 than one. So as I understand it, if Trump adds 13 billion dollars to the deficit (13 billion will not double the debt) he will not bankrupt the country, and yet you said earlier he would. Am I understanding this correctly? Some people here reject the Laffer Curve. It's hopeless.
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