Intelligence and working hard

[whoisjohngalt]

So, I am full of conflicting feelings today.....

My oldest finished 1st grade and even though our state doesn't requires it, I tested the hell out of him.  It was a 3.5 hr test and we got results today.  Well, he did remarkably well.   His grandparents, (the same ones that feed him 19 pez dispensers) are about to throw a parade in his honor and think that their little "baby Einstein" deserves everything he wants.

But I know how lazy he can be and how once things get a bit hard, he has no perseverance to work it through.

I can't stand arrogant people who think they are smarter than everyone else and I am worried that he will be one of them.  In addition to being lazy.

So......how do I find the balance?  I don't want to diminish his accomplishments, but....

He spent an hour this morning whining that he can't figure out a math word problem.  It took him 30 seconds to get an answer once I drew a picture, the same pic that he could have done 10 times.

How did you handle your intelligent but lazy kids??

[Tiny]

LOL!  Looking back on my childhood - I'm stuggling with the fact that you actually told your kid AND the grandparents the results of the testing.   I'm not sure why that was necessary.    I had a 'crappy childhood' and pretty much learned early on you did what you were expected to do (take a test - even if it was on a Saturday) and not to expect any results based on those actions.   If no one was screaming at you afterwards you were successful.   

So, that said, my first knee jerk reaction to your request is to sit the kid down and scream at him that if he doesn't work harder he'll be a failure!    Yeah, I know that doesn't work... although - if he's your first born it might - if it's your youngest probably not so much.     


Seriously,  the fact that he spent an hour (or any amount of time) whining about the problem leads me to believe he doesn't have 'concentration' problems. (If I was faced with this problem as a kid - I would have quickly moved on to something else... )    Maybe he just needs a bit of help learning the steps to take to "see a problem in a different way" - which maybe you can help him with by asking him questions about the problem?  Like, what kinds of ways could he represent the problem  (the drawing)?  or is there some other problem he's done that's like the one that's stumping him?  or was there an example in his text book or handouts that was like the Stumper?          

Sometimes repitition of a skill is what's needed to attain mastery AND sometimes knowing when to try some other way of doing the 'action/skill' is what's needed to attain mastery.  


 

[yogiii]

My parents used to buy a container of ice cream for us to have after I received a report card.  Ice cream wasn't a regular thing at our house, so it was something to look forward to.  Now kids probably get go-carts or something, I don't know, I'm so out of touch!

[yogiii]

Also I would consider the laziness something separate from the test.  Acknowledging he did well (which was expected of him) can happen while separately expressing disdain about the lazy habits (I think one of mine is lazy also)

[shanendoah]

It's a hard line to walk. C and I have often said we would rather have a kid who was a hard worker than one who was brilliant. We say this from experience. Both C and my brother are brilliant, and both are lazy. C dropped out of high school and didn't complete a BS until last summer (after his 40th birthday). My brother still hasn't completed a BA/BS, though is back in school, but now for welding, because he enjoys working with his hands (and he's a few years past 40).
I am not quite as smart as either of them, but am also not quite as lazy. And that means I had my masters before 35, and earn enough to be the sole earner for our family. It makes a big difference.
I'm still lazy though. I could be a lot further along in my career if I weren't.

As to how to make a kid not lazy, I don't know. I would just say, that since you aren't tied to keeping 20-30 kids on the same learning pace, make sure you always move at his pace. Speed up on things he gets, slow down on things he doesn't, make sure he's challenged, but work hard at not being frustrated. Try to incorporate things he's really interested in into the lessons. Your math problems can be about dinosaurs instead of trains, etc.

In our case, if Pop Tart has been staring at a single problem that long, we would have made her take a break. (She would have gotten mad about that, and possibly had a breakdown, because she gets it in her head that she has to complete this one thing before she can do anything else.) But, we would have said, go play for 15 minutes, set a timer, and had her come back to it. When she came back to it, we would have made her read it out loud (it's funny how you brain processes things differently when you hear them as well as see them), and then tried to ask questions. C does the Socratic method fairly well (though I hate it when he tries to use it on me), and is able to get her to think through the problem, including drawing pictures, herself.

But I honestly don't know how you teach hard work. I know the lazy comes from things coming too easy for C and my brother, so there wasn't much of a point of working hard if they could pass the tests without doing the work.

I would recommend (in your case) that you not share future test scores with the grandparents. But since he did well, and he knows he did well, let him pick what you get for dinner one night, or pick a family activity, that kind of reward. It was one test, he gets one reward.

[Deleted]

OMG.  I have one of the smartest/laziest kids on the planet.  No clue how to make him not lazy.  External things will motivate him to an extent, but just until he gets the reward. 

[whoisjohngalt]

I didn't share the test results with grandparents.  (I don't even talk to my IL's)  He was on the phone seconds after I got an email.

He knew that they were coming and kept asking me.  I am not big on lying to my kids.

I am VERY worried bc I know how lazy I really am and I know how much it cost me in life.

I am also worried about him thinking that bc he is "smart" (which, btw, I never tell him that) he doesn't have to work hard.

He doesn't have attention span or concentration problems, he has "I don't want to do it, it's too hard" problem

[gs11rmb]

Jul 8, 2015 13:29:03 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

He doesn't have attention span or concentration problems, he has "I don't want to do it, it's too hard" problem

Sounds familiar ... I don't suppose your son is really an almost 7 year old girl?

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 8, 2015 13:33:49 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Jul 8, 2015 13:29:03 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

He doesn't have attention span or concentration problems, he has "I don't want to do it, it's too hard" problem

Sounds familiar ... I don't suppose your son is really an almost 7 year old girl?

LOL, not the last time I checked, although, he is almost 7

[gs11rmb]

How fun!  Mine will be 7 this Saturday.  I'm hoping this age will be easier than 6, which was harder than 5, which was harder than 4, which was.... you get the picture .

[whoisjohngalt]

LOL.  I have a almost 4 yr old and a 5 yr old in the house - so it's just a complete blur to me

[Tiny]

Jul 8, 2015 13:29:03 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

 

He doesn't have attention span or concentration problems, he has "I don't want to do it, it's too hard" problem

you could always point out that he's not really very smart if the problem is too hard    A truly smart (and lazy) kid would figure out how to get the job done as quickly and painlessly as possible - so they could move on to something more interesting that doesn't require a whole lot of effort (being lazy and all).    Otherwise a lot of work and effort is put into "getting out of doing work" - which kinda defeats the whole being lazy thing...
I think you need to watch out for him getting other people to do his work for him...  


I'm lazy and possibly smart.  I like to get things done so I don't have to keep revisiting them or re-doing them.  I tend to put forth some creative/smart effort OR some "look ahead at what is needed" effort which then allows me to do less work over all.   

[gs11rmb]

Jul 8, 2015 13:40:36 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

LOL.  I have a almost 4 yr old and a 5 yr old in the house - so it's just a complete blur to me

I don't know how you do it.  I also have an almost 3 year old and work full-time.  That is not a complaint, I skip into work on Monday mornings

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 8, 2015 13:46:20 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Jul 8, 2015 13:40:36 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

LOL.  I have a almost 4 yr old and a 5 yr old in the house - so it's just a complete blur to me

I don't know how you do it.  I also have an almost 3 year old and work full-time.  That is not a complaint, I skip into work on Monday mornings

I don't work so I have tons of free time

[yogiii]

Jul 8, 2015 13:38:43 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

How fun!  Mine will be 7 this Saturday.  I'm hoping this age will be easier than 6, which was harder than 5, which was harder than 4, which was.... you get the picture .

WHAT?!?!?!?!
NOOOOOOO

[swamp]

I have one of those. I have no idea what to do with him.

[busymom]

Any chance your son is a visual learner? Some kids don't learn concepts by being told, but by seeing them. (Like when you drew a picture.) Doesn't mean the child isn't brilliant, but a lot of the scary-smart kids learn things differently from the rest of us, & see the world differently too.

If I'd been given the option to quit school (like my Dad was given the option by my Grandfather), I'd have left school when I had algebra. I was making great marks in my other classes, but had to spend an obscene amount of time on my algebra homework. Every. Single. Night. (It's amazing that I ended up a business major, and numbers DO fascinate me, but I STILL hate algebra!)

I've forgotten if your son is in a private or public school, but if the child were mine I'd probably send them to a school that worked with their style of learning.

[Ryan]

Why do the grandparents (or the kid) even know how they did on these tests?

[Bonny]

Jul 8, 2015 13:44:39 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Jul 8, 2015 13:29:03 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

 

He doesn't have attention span or concentration problems, he has "I don't want to do it, it's too hard" problem

you could always point out that he's not really very smart if the problem is too hard    A truly smart (and lazy) kid would figure out how to get the job done as quickly and painlessly as possible - so they could move on to something more interesting that doesn't require a whole lot of effort (being lazy and all).    Otherwise a lot of work and effort is put into "getting out of doing work" - which kinda defeats the whole being lazy thing...
I think you need to watch out for him getting other people to do his work for him...  


I'm lazy and possibly smart.  I like to get things done so I don't have to keep revisiting them or re-doing them.  I tend to put forth some creative/smart effort OR some "look ahead at what is needed" effort which then allows me to do less work over all.   

A manager in the making!

You know there are some benefits to being lazy. You give a good example with your work smarter not harder example.

And I think there's some serious creative thinking that goes into getting out of tasks you don't want to do. MIL talks about how she couldn't learn a foreign language which was a requirement of getting her PhD. So she learned computer programming and was able to convince the school it was a language.

[giramomma]

I also have one of those..
1st-3rd grade was the worst.

Seriously, the kid would have 15 minutes of homework, and he would sit and cry, bitch, moan complain, for an HOUR over choosing to do his work that took 15 minutes. (He also boycotted the first week of first grade because he couldn't play like he could in kindy.."

It took two years of consistency for him to finally cave. make better choices.

Our routine is always the same at that age: play for 30-45 minutes, home, snack, homework. Dinner.

4h grade he seemed to get it. We spent a lot of time taking a large assignment (monthly book report) and breaking it down into smaller steps so he wasn't doing it all the Sunday night before the Monday it was due. It took him the whole school year to get it, but he did.

We would also make him re-do work that wasn't up to par up through 4th grade. Eventually he learned he really only wanted to do something once, not 3 or 4 times.

In 5th grade, we let natural consequences take over. One of his teachers took 25% off a nearly perfect exam because he didn't capitalize like he should have. DS came home, upset that the teacher "made him feel bad." We're like "Dude honestly, your best work?" He said "No." We said, "OK, we warned you. These are the consequences. Expect this in the future if this is the level of work you put out."

I think 6th grade is going to be super painful. He hasn't retained what little work they did in 5th grade, particularly in math. His 5th grade teacher didn't believe in homework. The kids would do two problems correctly, and he'd assume the students would put that learning into long term memory. Well, 6 months later, my kid isn't remembering jack squat. Thankfully, he's understanding this is bad, and is willing to do a few review problems with me when I'm at home with him over the summer.

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 8, 2015 14:11:29 GMT -5 busymom said:

Any chance your son is a visual learner? Some kids don't learn concepts by being told, but by seeing them. (Like when you drew a picture.) Doesn't mean the child isn't brilliant, but a lot of the scary-smart kids learn things differently from the rest of us, & see the world differently too.

If I'd been given the option to quit school (like my Dad was given the option by my Grandfather), I'd have left school when I had algebra. I was making great marks in my other classes, but had to spend an obscene amount of time on my algebra homework. Every. Single. Night. (It's amazing that I ended up a business major, and numbers DO fascinate me, but I STILL hate algebra!)

I've forgotten if your son is in a private or public school, but if the child were mine I'd probably send them to a school that worked with their style of learning.

I do draw him pictures, but I want HIM to draw pictures when he  does those problems. 

We homeschool, that's why I am so worried about the whole thing - if he is a looser who is living in my basement at 45 - it will be on me!

[Bonny]

Jul 8, 2015 15:06:49 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

Jul 8, 2015 14:11:29 GMT -5 busymom said:

Any chance your son is a visual learner? Some kids don't learn concepts by being told, but by seeing them. (Like when you drew a picture.) Doesn't mean the child isn't brilliant, but a lot of the scary-smart kids learn things differently from the rest of us, & see the world differently too.

If I'd been given the option to quit school (like my Dad was given the option by my Grandfather), I'd have left school when I had algebra. I was making great marks in my other classes, but had to spend an obscene amount of time on my algebra homework. Every. Single. Night. (It's amazing that I ended up a business major, and numbers DO fascinate me, but I STILL hate algebra!)

I've forgotten if your son is in a private or public school, but if the child were mine I'd probably send them to a school that worked with their style of learning.

I do draw him pictures, but I want HIM to draw pictures when he  does those problems. 

We homeschool, that's why I am so worried about the whole thing - if he is a looser who is living in my basement at 45 - it will be on me!

LOL, there's the ultimate argument against homeschooling; spread the blame risk!

[TheHaitian]

Jul 8, 2015 15:09:40 GMT -5 Bonny said:

Jul 8, 2015 15:06:49 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

I do draw him pictures, but I want HIM to draw pictures when he  does those problems. 

We homeschool, that's why I am so worried about the whole thing - if he is a looser who is living in my basement at 45 - it will be on me!

LOL, there's the ultimate argument against homeschooling; spread the blame risk!

LOL!!!!!

[happyhoix]

I have one of those. The key is to let them fail due to being lazy. Set consequences for their failure. They're smart enough to understand "If I don't get this book report done by the due date, I don't get to spend the night at my friend's house Saturday." 

Smart kids get lazy because they can sit and listen to the teacher in class and know enough they can pass the tests. They don't have to study much, or put forth much effort. At some point, though, school starts to require projects, book reports, research papers, etc. Things you can't just wing your happy ass through at the last minute. This is when it's really important to resist stepping in and helping - let them crash a few times and take their lumps, so that by the time they hit high school and college they understand the consequences to their grades if they fail to put some effort into their work.

I know parents usually want to protect their kids from failure, but kids learn as much from failure as they do from their successes, and you want them to fail early on, when it isn't that important. The smart ones especially need to know just being smart doesn't guarantee success.

[TheHaitian]

Jul 8, 2015 16:50:32 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I have one of those. The key is to let them fail due to being lazy. Set consequences for their failure. They're smart enough to understand "If I don't get this book report done by the due date, I don't get to spend the night at my friend's house Saturday." 

Smart kids get lazy because they can sit and listen to the teacher in class and know enough they can pass the tests. They don't have to study much, or put forth much effort. At some point, though, school starts to require projects, book reports, research papers, etc. Things you can't just wing your happy ass through at the last minute. This is when it's really important to resist stepping in and helping - let them crash a few times and take their lumps, so that by the time they hit high school and college they understand the consequences to their grades if they fail to put some effort into their work.

I know parents usually want to protect their kids from failure, but kids learn as much from failure as they do from their successes, and you want them to fail early on, when it isn't that important. The smart ones especially need to know just being smart doesn't guarantee success.

Kinda Hard for the OP to in force since she home schools. She is a the teacher.

Unless maybe they are some privileges you could take away? Game? Access to computer or able to watch favorite show on TV?

[happyhoix]

Jul 8, 2015 17:09:23 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Jul 8, 2015 16:50:32 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

I have one of those. The key is to let them fail due to being lazy. Set consequences for their failure. They're smart enough to understand "If I don't get this book report done by the due date, I don't get to spend the night at my friend's house Saturday." 

Smart kids get lazy because they can sit and listen to the teacher in class and know enough they can pass the tests. They don't have to study much, or put forth much effort. At some point, though, school starts to require projects, book reports, research papers, etc. Things you can't just wing your happy ass through at the last minute. This is when it's really important to resist stepping in and helping - let them crash a few times and take their lumps, so that by the time they hit high school and college they understand the consequences to their grades if they fail to put some effort into their work.

I know parents usually want to protect their kids from failure, but kids learn as much from failure as they do from their successes, and you want them to fail early on, when it isn't that important. The smart ones especially need to know just being smart doesn't guarantee success.

Kinda Hard for the OP to in force since she home schools. She is a the teacher.

Unless maybe they are some privileges you could take away? Game? Access to computer or able to watch favorite show on TV?

Yeah, you have to figure out what motivates them, and that changes over time. When DS was in elementary school it started out with withholding TV, then withholding his Gameboy, then his video games, then his phone, then his car.

[Shooby]

I tell them that Perspiration beats Inspiration and your so called intelligence. Here is a mop, now get busy!

[Shooby]

But, seriously, I think the key is teaching them that the rules of Life apply to them no matter how smart they are. Like, yeah, that's great that you can figure out integral Calculus, but now it is your turn to go clean up the dog poop. Making them do chores and contribute and do the sweat equity of life keeps people humble and also helps motivate them as well.

[kent]

Jul 8, 2015 12:15:53 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

So, I am full of conflicting feelings today.....

How did you handle your intelligent but lazy kids??

Chances are he isn't "lazy" - he's freaking bored to death because he doesn't really feel challenged so why mess with stupid word problems that he simply can't relate to?  To this day I remember how STUPID kindergarten and grades 1 and 2 were.

I think I have psychological problems given THAT memory after all these years!

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

The problem is that what motivates me doesn't necessarily motivate my children. That's how we ended up with an intelligent 22yo (now 25) who flat out told us to our faces that he wasn't going to work anymore and he didn't care if we were mad about it. He went to live in the woods so he didn't have to pay bills. That lasted three months and he asked to come home. We told him no. He didn't talk to DH for 18 months. (There is a lot building from him barely graduating from high school and the journey from age 17 to age 22.)

He's been lazy his entire life. He is wired differently from DH. He doesn't want "things" enough to work. He does work now for a refrigeration company. He gets paid about $12/hour. He doesn't ask us for anything. 

Our 17yo daughter is lazy, but she likes "things" enough that I think she'll end up getting her BS. She has yet to get a job though. She is also starting to have panic attacks about moving out/going to college next summer. We'll see. 

I guess my point is that I'm ahead of you in this journey and I have no answers for you. Being human is hard. Parenting is extra hard.