Working Moms is good for kids!

[thyme4change]

www.hbs.edu/news/releases/Pages/having-working-mother.aspx

BOSTON— Contrary to conventional wisdom, growing up with a working mother is unlikely to harm children socially and economically when they become adults, new research by a Harvard Business School professor concludes.

The “working mother effect” actually improves future prospects, especially for adult daughters of mothers who worked outside the home before their daughters were 14 years old, according to recent findings based on a comprehensive survey of 50,000 adults aged 18 to 60 in 25 nations worldwide in 2002 and 2012.

The researchers also found that the working mother effect does not extend to sons in the workplace, where they are as likely as sons with stay-at-home mothers to hold supervisory positions and earn comparable salaries.

Sons of working mothers did do better, however, when it came to domestic duties.

“One of the main goals Harvard Business School wants to achieve with the Gender Initiative is to ground discussions about gender in rigorous research so that people can make better- informed decisions for themselves, their families, their companies, and their communities,” Ely said. “So much of what people think they know about gender is simply not substantiated by empirical evidence, but instead is based on gender stereotypes.

[giramomma]

Yes! Working moms are good for kids. Especially if Dad is the primary care giver.

Actually what struck me is this
In the United States, adult daughters of working mothers earned 23 percent more than those whose mothers had not worked during their daughters’ childhoods, earning an annual average income of $35,474 compared to $28,894. Over 33 percent held supervisory positions, compared to roughly 25 percent of their counterparts from more traditional households.

I found the 35K average salary to be low, given that 1/3 of these are supposed to be supervisory positions. I'm struggling to find more than two full time working moms that make 35k. Most make quite a bit more.

[thyme4change]

Jul 6, 2015 20:57:40 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Yes! Working moms are good for kids. Especially if Dad is the primary care giver.

Actually what struck me is this
In the United States, adult daughters of working mothers earned 23 percent more than those whose mothers had not worked during their daughters’ childhoods, earning an annual average income of $35,474 compared to $28,894. Over 33 percent held supervisory positions, compared to roughly 25 percent of their counterparts from more traditional households.

I found the 35K average salary to be low, given that 1/3 of these are supposed to be supervisory positions. I'm struggling to find more than two full time working moms that make 35k. Most make quite a bit more.

The daughters make $35k, not the Moms.  

The average household income is like $45k, so $35k average for individuals doesn't surprise me.  I didn't read the methodology of the study, but I wouldn't be surprised if the daughters are skewed younger - maybe in the first half of their careers, maybe not.  

[giramomma]

Jul 6, 2015 21:07:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Jul 6, 2015 20:57:40 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Yes! Working moms are good for kids. Especially if Dad is the primary care giver.

Actually what struck me is this
In the United States, adult daughters of working mothers earned 23 percent more than those whose mothers had not worked during their daughters’ childhoods, earning an annual average income of $35,474 compared to $28,894. Over 33 percent held supervisory positions, compared to roughly 25 percent of their counterparts from more traditional households.

I found the 35K average salary to be low, given that 1/3 of these are supposed to be supervisory positions. I'm struggling to find more than two full time working moms that make 35k. Most make quite a bit more.

The daughters make $35k, not the Moms.  

The average household income is like $45k, so $35k average for individuals doesn't surprise me.  I didn't read the methodology of the study, but I wouldn't be surprised if the daughters are skewed younger - maybe in the first half of their careers, maybe not.  

Right. I got that.

I still am surprised by the low numbers. I don't make a lot of money, but I was making more than 35K by the time I was a mom.

According to the CDC, the average age of the first time mom is 25.8 years old. blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/05/09/for-more-american-moms-kids-are-a-late-30s-thing/

So, yes, younger workers. But for someone who has been working potentially 4-7 years, I would think they'd be earning more than 35K at that point, unless there more low wage works than not.


Are we also assuming the moms are working full time?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Can't we just say "Moms are good for kids"?

I've been both a working mother and a SAHM.  

My kids didn't care which type I was, only that I was their mother.

Neither is better than the other.  The operative word is, and should be, "mother".

[thyme4change]

I am not following your logic.  Regardless of how much you earned, there are a lot of people out there who make less than $30k.  I just googled it and the average salary is $28k - so the adult daughters whose mother's worked full time are making more than average.  I didn't see anything in the article that indicated that they limited this to skilled workers, or people with higher education - just people.  Therefore, the average is going to be in the average range.

I don't know how the average age of first time moms relates here.  They are talking about the daughters of working moms.  They did not narrow the group of daughters to the ones who are now moms, or not.  The motherhood status of the working daughters is 100% completely, totally irrelevant.  

As for asking if the moms are working full time - the article says they compared people whose mothers worked full time.  So, yes, we were told flat out that the moms work full time.  Are you asking if the daughters are working full time?  Because that is also totally irrelevant.  The question they are asking is the economic differences between the kids of working moms vs. the kids of non-employed moms.  If a bunch of those kids became homeless and earn zero dollars, it was included in the average.

The salaries of the working moms are not the question in any way, shape or form.  Only the salaries of the daughters.

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2015 21:27:06 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Jul 6, 2015 21:07:22 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

The daughters make $35k, not the Moms.  

The average household income is like $45k, so $35k average for individuals doesn't surprise me.  I didn't read the methodology of the study, but I wouldn't be surprised if the daughters are skewed younger - maybe in the first half of their careers, maybe not.  

Right. I got that.

I still am surprised by the low numbers. I don't make a lot of money, but I was making more than 35K by the time I was a mom.

According to the CDC, the average age of the first time mom is 25.8 years old. blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/05/09/for-more-american-moms-kids-are-a-late-30s-thing/

So, yes, younger workers. But for someone who has been working potentially 4-7 years, I would think they'd be earning more than 35K at that point, unless there more low wage works than not.


Are we also assuming the moms are working full time?

A lot of people make 35K or less.  It's not that shocking.

[giramomma]

Jul 6, 2015 21:53:26 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Jul 6, 2015 21:27:06 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Right. I got that.

I still am surprised by the low numbers. I don't make a lot of money, but I was making more than 35K by the time I was a mom.

According to the CDC, the average age of the first time mom is 25.8 years old. blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/05/09/for-more-american-moms-kids-are-a-late-30s-thing/

So, yes, younger workers. But for someone who has been working potentially 4-7 years, I would think they'd be earning more than 35K at that point, unless there more low wage works than not.


Are we also assuming the moms are working full time?

A lot of people make 35K or less.  It's not that shocking.

Well, for me it is, and for around here, it's still pretty shocking. Even in my neighborhood my mom neighbors are a teacher, a nurse, a police officer, and one that does recreation programs at a retirement community. And that's not including me. The only one not making 35K may be the one that works in the retirement community.

Even at my kids' school, there are very few full time working moms that get paid 35K. Two of them work at parochial schools, so I think that's it. The rest are like CPA, nurse, pharmacist, business owners, business executive that travel very often type folks.

DD2's preschool teacher doesn't earn 35K, I'm betting.

I think the teachers (parochial/preschool) are the only ones that don't make and are still in the middle class. Working moms making less that 35K here is really pointing to a family living in poverty.

ETA: If someone is making less than 35K and has two kids close together, usually, here the norm is to drop out of the workforce until the first goes to school. No sense in working a 25-35K/year job and paying 36K/year in daycare costs.

[Deleted]

Well, that's your corner of the world.  In mine, a lot of people make 35K or less and daycare is $400/month.  Two people making that and you are way over the mean household income for the US. 

[Deleted]

None of the links I've found to the actual study work.... Has anyone else found it?

The scope seems really broad? So many countries, so large a span of age 18-60... I'd like to look at the data sets for each country/age/ etc...

[whoisjohngalt]

ooohhhh  yay!!  Going to bookmark this thread.  If I get too bored with my kids tomorrow, I'll have nice looooong thread to read!

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2015 21:38:42 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Can't we just say "Moms are good for kids"?

I've been both a working mother and a SAHM.  

My kids didn't care which type I was, only that I was their mother.

Neither is better than the other.  The operative word is, and should be, "mother".

I would read it that modeling a full time, outside the home job, to your daughters provides them a leg up in the working world. Possibly also influenced by what information you share with your daughter and expectations you set for them.

It would also be interesting to see how many of the daughters of working moms participated in competitive team sports. I think that team sports is actually a better preparatory training ground for success in the workplace.

There are benefits to working mom, there are benefits to SAHM.  They are different and neither should be diminished. However, there is a long standing stereotype that it is "bad for kids" to have a working mom. This study attempts to alter that perception.

I think any child would benefit from an educated, engaged SAHP. I think not everyone has the skills & personality to fill that role.

[Opti]

Jul 6, 2015 20:57:40 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Yes! Working moms are good for kids. Especially if Dad is the primary care giver.

Actually what struck me is this
In the United States, adult daughters of working mothers earned 23 percent more than those whose mothers had not worked during their daughters’ childhoods, earning an annual average income of $35,474 compared to $28,894. Over 33 percent held supervisory positions, compared to roughly 25 percent of their counterparts from more traditional households.

I found the 35K average salary to be low, given that 1/3 of these are supposed to be supervisory positions. I'm struggling to find more than two full time working moms that make 35k. Most make quite a bit more.

I think many YMers have no idea how many people get paid less than $50K/yr and what they do. There are likely shit tons of supervisory positions in retail that pay less than $35K/yr. I know about a decade ago, first line supervisors at Macy's made about $28K/yr. and their schedules were pretty challenging. I'd be surprised, but happy, if the scheduler of CNAs, former FT CNA, makes $35K/yr. or  better. Even in CNJ, many CNAs make around $10-$13/hr.

CNA - Certified Nursing Assistant

[cronewitch]

Daughters of SAHMs might be more likely to value time with their own children so have a similar lifestyle if they want to. Mom was a housewife and expected me to grow up to be a housewife, I got no encouragement to be anything else. When mom asked what I was going to do after high school I told her but she acted like it wasn't true at all. If she had a career she might have seen my future differently. Also most housewives do the vast majority of child care and housework so if you grow up seeing that as women's work you might do more than your share when you grow up so hold back your own career to have more time with the children and house and spouse.

[Peace Of Mind]

Jul 6, 2015 21:38:42 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Can't we just say "Moms are good for kids"?

I've been both a working mother and a SAHM.  

My kids didn't care which type I was, only that I was their mother.

Neither is better than the other.  The operative word is, and should be, "mother".

That can't be right because mom's are damned if they do and damned if they don't.  So that must mean you are wrong about this too because you are a mom.  

[yogiii]

I love when I inadvertently do something right.

[yogiii]

Jul 6, 2015 23:00:16 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

ooohhhh  yay!!  Going to bookmark this thread.  If I get too bored with my kids tomorrow, I'll have nice looooong thread to read!

This doesn't even pertain to you because you have all boys

ETA - oh wait it does!  The article states your sons will not help with vacuuming!

[whoisjohngalt]

Jul 7, 2015 5:07:03 GMT -5 yogiii said:

Jul 6, 2015 23:00:16 GMT -5 whoisjohngalt said:

ooohhhh  yay!!  Going to bookmark this thread.  If I get too bored with my kids tomorrow, I'll have nice looooong thread to read!

This doesn't even pertain to you because you have all boys

ETA - oh wait it does!  The article states your sons will not help with vacuuming!

Damn it!  Oh wait - one of them is going to be a Princess, so yeah, I can understand that.

In all seriousness, though, the Dr Phil in me thinks that my SIL quit her job 10 yrs ago exactly for this reason - bc her mother was SAHM.  Both, my husband and SIL seem to think that it is how the family structure should be. 

Now, if we didn't have kids, no way in hell would I be staying home.  But his sister doesn't have any kids.  Well, she said she was sick and just quit her job and that was it.  Even when her husband was unemployed for over a year, she still didn't even try to get a job. 

At the same time, I didn't know anyone who didn't work when I was growing up.  And yet, here I am.  Although, it was always non-negotiable in my head that I would get a profession, before deciding anything else.

I think people tend to go with either exactly what they had growing up or completely the opposite - so, there is about 50/50 chance that articles like that will hit the mark.

[MJ2.0]

Jul 6, 2015 23:06:38 GMT -5 @rockit said:

Jul 6, 2015 21:38:42 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Can't we just say "Moms are good for kids"?

I've been both a working mother and a SAHM.  

My kids didn't care which type I was, only that I was their mother.

Neither is better than the other.  The operative word is, and should be, "mother".

I would read it that modeling a full time, outside the home job, to your daughters provides them a leg up in the working world. Possibly also influenced by what information you share with your daughter and expectations you set for them.

It would also be interesting to see how many of the daughters of working moms participated in competitive team sports. I think that team sports is actually a better preparatory training ground for success in the workplace.

There are benefits to working mom, there are benefits to SAHM.  They are different and neither should be diminished. However, there is a long standing stereotype that it is "bad for kids" to have a working mom. This study attempts to alter that perception.

I think any child would benefit from an educated, engaged SAHP. I think not everyone has the skills & personality to fill that role.

this x 1000.  I realized that I would be a shitty SAHM after the 6th week of being home on maternity leave with DS.

[thyme4change]

Jul 7, 2015 8:13:23 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

Jul 6, 2015 23:06:38 GMT -5 @rockit said:

I think any child would benefit from an educated, engaged SAHP. I think not everyone has the skills & personality to fill that role.

this x 1000.  I realized that I would be a shitty SAHM after the 6th week of being home on maternity leave with DS.

Not to mention I was the only income when both my kids were born.  It was almost nice to not have a choice.  I didn't really have to defend my decision to anyone, nor did I have to agonize over what my family thought was an absolute given vs. what I guessed would be the best choice for me.  

[MJ2.0]

I wasn't the only income but I had to work to support our lifestyle (wasn't anything extravagant either). It kinda sucked because I envisioned being this awesome SAHM or working part time, BFing until DS was 9 months, making lots of meals and taking care of the home better. In reality I was extremely isolated and drained and had little to no desire/energy to cook or clean. 3 years later that has changed but I don't have the temperament to listen to "Mommy! Mommy! Mommy! I wanna watch alphabet tow trucks!" a hundred times a day.

[milee]

Jul 7, 2015 8:38:27 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I wasn't the only income but I had to work to support our lifestyle (wasn't anything extravagant either). It kinda sucked because I envisioned being this awesome SAHM or working part time, BFing until DS was 9 months, making lots of meals and taking care of the home better. In reality I was extremely isolated and drained and had little to no desire/energy to cook or clean. 3 years later that has changed but I don't have the temperament to listen to "Mommy! Mommy! Mommy! I wanna watch alphabet tow trucks!" a hundred times a day.

Yeah, the repetition thing is a killer.

I remember before I had children that I felt sorry for one of my friends.  She was describing how it was driving her nuts that her 4 year old wanted to watch the same movie for the 100th time.  I remember thinking how sad it was that she had such a slow child.    Karma bit me hard on that one.  We don't watch much TV or movies so it wasn't that we'd watch something 100 times, but they wanted to read the same book over and over and over and over.  After the 10th or 20th time of reading/hearing a children's book, it's so incredibly stultifying that I'd rather poke myself in the eye until I touch my brain than read it again.  So it's better for all of us that I'm not a SAHM. 

[zibazinski]

It isn't easy being either or both at the same time. I was lucky with my career being family friendly but I paid for it in salary. That also happens. Because of that I have pushed DD big time. Once she has her PA she will make good money. If she decides to go part time, she will still make decent money. I wish I'd pushed DS harder. All the women he has dated all very career oriented and make way more money than him. . He knows he has to get on the ball. We just had this conversation AGAIN. I've never had to have it with DD.

[MJ2.0]

whoever wrote Blueberries for Sal was a sadist. It was my favorite book as a kid, but as an adult I find it eyeball-stabbingly painful to read.

[zibazinski]

When DD wanted to watch My Little Pony for the millionth time, I didn't have to sit there with her. That's a great time to get stuff done, while they're hypnotized/mesmerized.

[midjd]

We don't watch much TV or movies so it wasn't that we'd watch something 100 times, but they wanted to read the same book over and over and over and over. After the 10th or 20th time of reading/hearing a children's book, it's so incredibly stultifying that I'd rather poke myself in the eye until I touch my brain than read it again. So it's better for all of us that I'm not a SAHM.

That's the stage DD is in now. I can only hope that at some point my ability to recite every Dr. Seuss book ever written can win me money on a game show or something.

[MJ2.0]

Oh, the thinks you can think!

[yogiii]

My kids are at that stage now where they are constantly play fighting and it's annoying as a parent.  I can't imagine being home with them 24/7 at this point.  It's like WWF, with 2 wild animals rolling all over the floor.  Then ultimately one of them starts whining in the most annoying tone.  I'll get brief reprieves because DS thinks he can read (he's just memorized the hundreds of books we have, oh so has his 2 year old sister), so he'll be really cute and sit down and "read" to her but that lasts a whole 5 mins before it's back to chasing, jumping etc.  At least they are both very active?!

I have to say, I'd love to be a SAHM when they're school aged though.  I'd spend my days cooking, working out, cleaning (I actually like cleaning).  I'd be living the dream!

[HoneyBBQ]

My own mother didn't really work. She drew her widower benefits and putzed around and didn't really contribute much to anyone (include raising me very well). For some reason, all she wanted to do was be a SAHM just without any kids! 

Anyways, I was always very career and education driven so I could get AWAY. I was motivated by her inability to do anything, change her life, do anything she pleased. She has a college degree but never used it. I wanted to get a good degree and have the option to SAH if I wanted or to make enough money to support myself and my choices.

Strangely enough, I'll probably retire early, since now I really value that freedom despite the fact that I like and am stimulated by my job. I want my DD to know she has a choice. So I like working. I do believe it's easier to go from a career to a SAHM than the other way around, though I know some women do it. I've just seen enough SAHM who gave up their careers and lives to stay home and then their husbands divorced them. They were stuck dependent on child support and alimony and whatever they could scrape together. While this could happen to anyone, I want to be prepared and have a back up plan.

[yogiii]

SAHMs can/do contribute to the family, some just more than others.  The schools in our town are very hands on.  There are a lot of SAHM/Ds that volunteer in the classroom.  I do some volunteering but not nearly as much as they do.  My kids will benefit from their time. I'd like to think if we were in the position to have one parent SAH, I'd be doing everything I could to show them how to be productive adults from the home front.