Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 15:06:18 GMT -5
The irony is that there are always power struggles, and power shifts from time to time. It's "interesting" how when one group starts to take power away from another group, that group and supporters of that group will often use the same tactics/attacks that it complained about being used against it in the past. In this case, it happens to be against Christians, in other cases it's against other religions, people based on skin color, gender, sexual preference, etc. I'm really not sure what you are attempting to say here?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 6, 2015 16:53:22 GMT -5
Didn't realize selling a product was an act of conversion. If it is, maybe they shouldn't sell that product. Or...maybe you should respect the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason and quit justifying your "convert or die" stance. And if you don't think death is the ultimate result of non-compliance- just push the issue the next time you're in a position to. Get a $50 parking ticket, and consciously decide to say fuck it, and then don't comply with any of the subsequent consequences. Your stand on this is absurd. However, it is why I have at least some understanding (though no sympathy) for the "Nuremberg Defense". It's pretty difficult to refuse to "obey orders".
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 6, 2015 17:03:00 GMT -5
The irony is that there are always power struggles, and power shifts from time to time. It's "interesting" how when one group starts to take power away from another group, that group and supporters of that group will often use the same tactics/attacks that it complained about being used against it in the past. In this case, it happens to be against Christians, in other cases it's against other religions, people based on skin color, gender, sexual preference, etc. This is why the solution is always for government to have very little power. Absent the involvement of government, most people are content to live and let live. When government shows up with the guns and starts picking winners and losers- and pitting one group against the other- is when the trouble starts. Take slavery, for example. Pretty much all government had to do was get out of the way. Instead, there were government-forced slave patrols- like jury duty- everyone had to participate in slave patrols. Government prevented the freeing of slaves- even in a last will and testament- making it illegal. Government sponsored the fugitive slave act. Basically, the 1.6% of rich white people that owned slaves manipulated the power of the state to preserve an institution that benefitted them. Here, we have a total violation of church and state in the first place- government getting involved in the institution of marriage (should it be any surprise to anyone they're screwing it up?)- at first to prevent intermarriage, and now to distribute benefits and goodies based on, I guess, whatever the hell definition of marriage government decides to "recognize" today. It is completely indefensibly absurd that there is a "right" to have your marriage "recognized" by the state. There's no right to marry in this sense. There is freedom of contract. That is, you have the right to agree to anything non-violent under natural law. Government should recognize your agreements- to the extent that they do not interfere with them, and they can assist in enforcing contracts when there is a civil disagreement. However, the real outcome should be that the government gets OUT of the marriage business altogether. The real result of the decision? Gays now have the right to ask permission to ask permission to get married.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 17:05:07 GMT -5
But we don't have the right to refuse service to anyone based on any reason. As a woman I'm kind of glad im no longer denied birth control or have to bring my daddy or husband along for a purchase because some sales person thinks I'm not qualified to make that decision for myself...
I don't have to drive, or park. If I choose to, I understand what I am choosing to do...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jul 6, 2015 18:57:38 GMT -5
... Absent the involvement of government, most people are content to live and let live. ... Basically, the 1.6% of rich white people that owned slaves manipulated the power of the state ... Most people generally benefit or are not deeply effected by government action so they can claim to have a "live and let live attitude".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 19:00:46 GMT -5
Probably because the cartoon is flawed.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 6, 2015 19:22:12 GMT -5
Didn't realize selling a product was an act of conversion. If it is, maybe they shouldn't sell that product. Or...maybe you should respect the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason there is no such right.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 6, 2015 19:22:46 GMT -5
Probably because the cartoon is flawed. fatally.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 6, 2015 21:08:10 GMT -5
Really? They kill you in the USA for unpaid parking tickets? Wow, things sure have changed since I lived there.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jul 6, 2015 22:33:47 GMT -5
How is marriage religious? It's a legal contract whether performed by the state or religious representative that enables those to be legally responsible for another / get a tax break
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2015 22:50:18 GMT -5
Interesting note... here's the oath that County Clerks swear to in Tennessee: Note the bolded.
This is the oath the clerks that are quitting took, back when they took office.
ETA: You would not believe how long it took to find that!
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 7, 2015 8:36:15 GMT -5
Or...maybe you should respect the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason there is no such right. Of course there is. Quit being silly.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 7, 2015 8:38:33 GMT -5
Interesting note... here's the oath that County Clerks swear to in Tennessee: Note the bolded. This is the oath the clerks that are quitting took, back when they took office. ETA: You would not believe how long it took to find that! What's your point? They did not violate their oath. They did the right thing and they resigned. It is unfortunate that their state did not stand up to the ruling instead of ceding their sovereign rights and upholding the Constitution against abuse by the SCOTUS-- which is every state's and every citizen's duty. However, if they don't- then the option is to resign, and that's what they did.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 7, 2015 8:40:22 GMT -5
cool. more jobs for atheists! how about 'more jobs for humans'? seriously. there must be at least a few christians out there who believe love and (by extension) marriage should be for all, not just a select group. everyone needs and deserves love. You are correct. There are.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 7, 2015 8:40:24 GMT -5
How is marriage religious? It's a legal contract whether performed by the state or religious representative that enables those to be legally responsible for another / get a tax break That is civil marriage. I have no issue with people agreeing to anything non-violent-- a contract. That's fine. And government plays a role. However, all the benefits, etc. are not something I'm particularly interested in seeing the government dole out benefits in favor of one contract or other.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 7, 2015 8:42:27 GMT -5
Gays must be part of the 'free event crowd' some folks avoid.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 7, 2015 8:43:16 GMT -5
I am happy for them that they all had the resources to freely make the decision they made. Good for them for standing up for their incredibly misguided assholerly.
I wonder how many of them were pressured into this and will regret it (possibly already do regret it.) Peer pressure can be powerful and destructive. And no organization is better at it than religious organizations. For 2000 years they have been telling people to believe and act exactly as they say - or burn in hell for all of eternity. That is harsh peer pressure. Much harsher than a Jr High girl saying "Wear the right clothes or we will make fun of you...until we all go to college."
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 7, 2015 8:54:07 GMT -5
I find it so funny that on the cake thread, people stated over and over and over again that if the bakers did not want to bake cakes for same-sex marriages, they should not be in the baking business. If the florist did not want to sell flowers to same-sex couples, she should not sell flowers. All of that makes sense.
But when someone does decide to get out of the business due to their beliefs, they are assholes. So what exactly does everyone want here? People to just capitulate to the way they want them to believe - no questions asked? I don't know about anybody else, but to me that has some damn scary implications.
These people did what they thought was right. They aren't hurting anyone. They took the option everyone was RAVING about on the other issues - the cakes and flowers - and they STILL are assholes. Face it. Nothing but one mindset for all will satisfy people. That's scary and you know what? It's doing more harm for the cause than good. I see it where I live. People who didn't care one way or the other how someone else lived are starting to care - and not in a good way.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jul 7, 2015 9:05:54 GMT -5
How is marriage religious? It's a legal contract whether performed by the state or religious representative that enables those to be legally responsible for another / get a tax break That is civil marriage. I have no issue with people agreeing to anything non-violent-- a contract. That's fine. And government plays a role. However, all the benefits, etc. are not something I'm particularly interested in seeing the government dole out benefits in favor of one contract or other. And that is exactly why all marriages are equal. To prevent 'the government dole out benefits in favor of one contract or other.'
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 7, 2015 9:24:24 GMT -5
That is civil marriage. I have no issue with people agreeing to anything non-violent-- a contract. That's fine. And government plays a role. However, all the benefits, etc. are not something I'm particularly interested in seeing the government dole out benefits in favor of one contract or other. And that is exactly why all marriages are equal. To prevent 'the government dole out benefits in favor of one contract or other.' Um, no. Equality before the law would mean that your taxes due would be the same whether you are married, single, have one child or five. There's no coherent legal or moral argument for anything else. Single people get hammered on taxes.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 7, 2015 9:24:37 GMT -5
I should say- single people, and in particular people with no kids.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jul 7, 2015 9:28:03 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 7, 2015 9:35:14 GMT -5
I find it so funny that on the cake thread, people stated over and over and over again that if the bakers did not want to bake cakes for same-sex marriages, they should not be in the baking business. If the florist did not want to sell flowers to same-sex couples, she should not sell flowers. All of that makes sense.
But when someone does decide to get out of the business due to their beliefs, they are assholes. So what exactly does everyone want here? People to just capitulate to the way they want them to believe - no questions asked? I don't know about anybody else, but to me that has some damn scary implications.
These people did what they thought was right. They aren't hurting anyone. They took the option everyone was RAVING about on the other issues - the cakes and flowers - and they STILL are assholes. Face it. Nothing but one mindset for all will satisfy people. That's scary and you know what? It's doing more harm for the cause than good. I see it where I live. People who didn't care one way or the other how someone else lived are starting to care - and not in a good way. I see nothing wrong with what these people did. They made choices. We all have to do that. If they feel very strongly about the "wrongness" of gay marriage, they did the right thing, just as the cake-makers did the right thing when they took their business private rather than having it a store-front and open to the public.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 7, 2015 9:38:14 GMT -5
I find your attitude disturbing and sad. For you. The win-lose mentality of the fringe kook left is going to backfire. Reasonable, live-and-let-live people like myself are disheartened when we see people rejoicing over the success of the secular humanist jihad to establish a liberal caliphate because. It may excite the left to use the force of government to do with guns what they have been unsuccessful doing in 40 states- including California where a huge majority of blacks and hispanics support legitimate marriage- at the ballot box, but you can rest assured it will not be so exciting when this big, bloated, and extremely dangerous government is in the hands of your political enemies. And it is ALWAYS a fatal mistake to believe "that could never happen". We have a system of government. This illegal, unConstitutional usurpation of power by the SCOTUS is nothing to celebrate.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jul 7, 2015 9:42:30 GMT -5
Agreed, mmhmm. There isn't anything wrong with what they did. I learned a long time ago that if I wanted people to respect my beliefs, I had to respect theirs as long as theirs (or mine) weren't hurting anyone else. I'll be honest and say when I was young, I respected other peoples' beliefs as long as they were the same as mine. I was downright disdainful at times and I'm not proud of that.
Thank Heavens I grew up and became a little less self-centered.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 7, 2015 9:45:25 GMT -5
I find your attitude disturbing and sad. For you. The win-lose mentality of the fringe kook left is going to backfire. Reasonable, live-and-let-live people like myself are disheartened when we see people rejoicing over the success of the secular humanist jihad to establish a liberal caliphate because. It may excite the left to use the force of government to do with guns what they have been unsuccessful doing in 40 states- including California where a huge majority of blacks and hispanics support legitimate marriage- at the ballot box, but you can rest assured it will not be so exciting when this big, bloated, and extremely dangerous government is in the hands of your political enemies. And it is ALWAYS a fatal mistake to believe "that could never happen". We have a system of government. This illegal, unConstitutional usurpation of power by the SCOTUS is nothing to celebrate. Legitimate marriage? What is legitimate marriage?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jul 7, 2015 9:52:39 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, you are notSCOTUS decided by a 5-4 majority vote that the states have no legal right to discriminate against any particular group of people.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 7, 2015 10:02:12 GMT -5
I've never been in a financial position to quit because of my beliefs. I applaud the fact that, one, they are, which means they are good YM'ers, and two, they could have kept their jobs, grumbling and glaring under the breath, but chose to take the high road and leave rather than do what they felt was wrong, to them. At least they aren't hypocrites.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 7, 2015 10:08:28 GMT -5
AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP, you are notSCOTUS decided by a 5-4 majority vote that the states have no legal right to discriminate against any particular group of people. ...when it comes to marriage that is. There are still no federal laws protecting gays and lesbians in regard to employment and housing. And the majority of states have no anti-discrimination public accommodation laws protecting any class of people. Common sense only goes so far when it comes to non-discrimination in public accommodations. Much work to be done and it will be contentious.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jul 7, 2015 10:09:17 GMT -5
I have far more respect for this group, than the ones that want to stay in place and deny state issued licenses to people they don't personally agree with.
I think we can, and should, expect agents of the government (at any level) to leave their religious beliefs at the door. If you can't do that, and it impacts your ability to do your job, then yes, you should either quit, or be fired. The government is not a normal, for-profit, business. It, and its employees, need to be held to a different standard. If you can't separate your religious beliefs from your job, than maybe you shouldn't be doing that job.
Kudos to this group for not being flaming hypocrites.
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