I just don't fully understand the "Greek financials.."

[deziloooooo]

beyond the fact that Greece owes it's creditors..Europeon banks..Countrys ..{ Biggest creditors  I believe are France..Germany}a lot of money that  they have  borrowed over the years and  are unable to  pay it back due to the size of the debt and the financial reality of the country....



If they owe so much and if it is just about impossible to repay...[reality is the  Greeks citizens still have to earn moneys to pay rent , for clothes..for food ../basically to live and to just be living on a subsistence level..no jobs for the young so most have to leave the country to find work if any work  is available or just be unemployed...and if unemployed how do they live..]yet country is looking for billions more to stave off basically what we as individuals would call a foreclosure..a bankruptcy..If unable to pay what they owe now how can they repay more billions lent....no "comprende " to my way of thinking..

Is the interest that banks and countries  are looking for on the many   billions lent too high..? If so..I would think , rather then have  the country default and walk away from their debt...and all the problems that would mean , not just for the Greeks but the rest of Europe and the creditors..better to try and get just  their principal back and possible  a bit of  interest...or if even that is  to much /impossible considering the debt and what the Greeks could accomplish even with fair austerity  doings for the foreseeable future..{ however, some hope has to be offered to the populace of better times in their life time, IMHO  }..as much of the principal back as possible and  still keep Greece in the community with some hope for the future..

Or is it better for all around to just let the Country {Greece } default and  start all over  again...and hope that the next time will be better..Any one because I admit I don't have a clue as to what is best here or even how it got  so bad..or what is possible ..the  financials  and sublties of it all are beyond my expertise...The problem is as I see it..the problem is beyond the so called experts here too...thus this continuing game of chicken that  seems to be going on between the parties and that includes the as said .."so called experts..supposedly  the best of the best when you consider the amounts in question? It seems by news  this week that financial markets all over the world..Japan comes to mind..were being affected this week because of this problem..

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/6/27/eurozone-rejects-greek-bailout-extension-request.html

Eurozone rejects Greek bailout extension request

Eurozone's top official, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, said the bailout program for Greece will expire Tuesday
June 27, 2015 11:25AM ET

Germany all but buried negotiations to keep Greece from default, saying Saturday a surprise decision by Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to call a referendum had left nothing to discuss but how to cope with failure.

Eurozone finance ministers met in Brussels for what had been intended as a final negotiation for a deal to rescue Greece from defaulting on a debt payment Tuesday, when an international bailout expires.

But the eurozone's top official, Jeroen Dijsselbloem, said the bailout program for Greece will expire. The country had requested an extension so that it can hold a referendum July 5 on the reform program demanded by creditors. Without a bailout program, it is uncertain whether Greece will be able to continue to receive emergency support for its banks.

Dijsselbloem said Saturday at the end of a eurozone finance ministers' meeting that "however regretful, the program will expire on Tuesday night. That is the latest stage we could have reached an agreement, and it will expire on Tuesday night."

"We have no basis for further negotiations," German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said. "Clearly we can never rule out surprises with Greece, so there can always be hope. But none of my colleagues with whom I've already spoken see any possibilities for what we can now do."

To read rest of article click on link above

[djAdvocate]

this is pretty bad news.

[zibazinski]

I see the same thing happening here.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 27, 2015 14:11:43 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I see the same thing happening here.

i don't.  but you probably don't want to hear why.  let me know if i am wrong.

[mroped]

Greece owes money to the European Banks or specific countries. And to understand what's going on in there is damn near impossible. After all as Shakespeare said :"it's all Greek!"

We owe money to...ourselves! Most of our debt anyway.
The Treasury holds most of our National debt. It is odd to me the the Treasury is a private entity but there is a Treasurer appointed by the president that is somewhat in charge with it.
Also, from what I understand, this circus-read Treasury- gets the money most of the time from public funds such as Social Security or others and lends the money to the country with an interest mind you.
So, to me would be like asking my wife to give me some cash, she slides a hand in my left pocket, pulls out a $20 bill, gives it to me but tells me that I owe her $22 dollars.
Just for the effort of putting her hand in my pocket she made a two dollars!
That's pretty good business I'd say!

[Ombud]

We produce and export some. Greece doesn't. We're demanding people work longer (albeit just to 67 now but talking about even more), Greece gives full pension (their SSA) at 50 for women / 55 for men. And they don't want to work to 60 which could have alleviated a lot, so they're proresting


New Jersey gets 61c back per tax dollar [Germany]
New Mexico get $2.03 back per tax dollar [Greece]

An analogy would be:
It's like New Jersey (Germany) is funding New Mexico (Greece) & said no more!! Both NJ & NM continue to function but NM welfare recipients get a benefit cut to bring it back to where it's more sustainable

[marvholly]

It is possible the entire EU will go down the tubes in the orseeable future. I don't think the average Greek voter will accept the changes the EU is demanding for further bailout help in the 7/5 referendum.

Next to go will be either Spain or Italy with their financial problems UNLESS Great Britain olds their referendum on staying in the EU first.

[mroped]

True, Portugal used to export cheese but no more so as not to be detrimental to France's exports within the union.
But France was a major producer of potatoes and a lot of it was exported.
No more! Now that corner belongs to Portugal.

What they did basically is take one away to give you complete control of the other. All is based on studies connected to efficiency, productivity and already established connections or a better distribution/transport ability.
Also the location in regards to supply and demand played a factor.

Greek economy was heavily relying on ship building. Nowadays, the Chinese, South Koreans and Japanese cornered that market.
The only things left for Greece to export are olives and goat cheese. And they still do that!

[fairlycrazy23]

I think there membership in the EU is also at stack, if they can't pay there obligations then they could be kicked out of the EU. It would probably mean that they would have to go back to there own currency and I am  not sure who would want to accept that for imports

[mroped]

To use cheese producer as example, they were at first compensated for what they use to export and then in time they were oriented towards other goals: meat, wool.

from what I understand they are doing some sort of crop/no crop rotation. Something similar with the Clean&Green in U.S.
For a number of years, Portugal will produce potatoes for most of EU. Then is someone else's turn while their land rests/recovers.
They still produce whatever they did before EU but just for internal use. That includes cheese.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 28, 2015 16:43:40 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Jun 27, 2015 14:11:43 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I see the same thing happening here.

It will eventually, unless we take some pretty drastic measures to avoid it.

it won't, unless we become far more reckless than we already are.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 28, 2015 20:45:43 GMT -5 Ombud said:

We produce and export some. Greece doesn't. We're demanding people work longer (albeit just to 67 now but talking about even more), Greece gives full pension (their SSA) at 50 for women / 55 for men. And they don't want to work to 60 which could have alleviated a lot, so they're proresting


New Jersey gets 61c back per tax dollar [Germany]
New Mexico get $2.03 back per tax dollar [Greece]

An analogy would be:
It's like New Jersey (Germany) is funding New Mexico (Greece) & said no more!! Both NJ & NM continue to function but NM welfare recipients get a benefit cut to bring it back to where it's more sustainable

nobody talks about the imminent bankruptcy of New Mexico, or Japan for that matter.  EVERYONE should consider why that is before commenting again about the imminent collapse of the US.

[ArchietheDragon]

Jun 29, 2015 14:12:14 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Jun 27, 2015 14:23:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i don't.  but you probably don't want to hear why.  let me know if i am wrong.

is it because we can always just hose all our creditors and leaches by inflating the currency and not adjusting payments upwards (ie, pay off with devalued currency)?

That sure helps..  I bet Greece wishes they could do that right now. 

[The Captain]

According to the WSJ the government has ordered the banks to close for 6 days to avoid a rush on cash.

Can you imagine that happening here?

Wow.  Just, wow.

[ArchietheDragon]

Jun 29, 2015 14:16:52 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Jun 29, 2015 14:13:02 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

That sure helps..  I bet Greece wishes they could do that right now. 

Yes, but you only get one time to do it if you're the reserve currency.

After that, you're just like any other currency.

Do it again (ala argentina) and you see it's nearly impossible to get credit at decent terms on the market and that your ability to influence global politics and economics. you decide if that's good or bad

The US does it non stop...  not sure what you mean. 

[The Captain]

Yea.  Now I'm wondering if I should actually get some silver and gold.

[Opti]

Jun 29, 2015 8:58:57 GMT -5 fairlycrazy23 said:

I think there membership in the EU is also at stack, if they can't pay there obligations then they could be kicked out of the EU. It would probably mean that they would have to go back to there own currency and I am  not sure who would want to accept that for imports

Exactly. Germany was strong armed into taking on Greece, and they are saying Nicht Mehr.

Not sure what will happen, except Germany will be fine.

Greece has cool old buildings, but they do not have cool current cars nor really great beer. (To my knowledge.)   German engineering and German purity laws (no sugars allowed in beer. Not sure if it is still true, but America did allow sugars to be added to lower costs and stretch MillerBudweiser et al beer legally.

[Opti]

Jun 29, 2015 12:57:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jun 28, 2015 20:45:43 GMT -5 Ombud said:

We produce and export some. Greece doesn't. We're demanding people work longer (albeit just to 67 now but talking about even more), Greece gives full pension (their SSA) at 50 for women / 55 for men. And they don't want to work to 60 which could have alleviated a lot, so they're proresting


New Jersey gets 61c back per tax dollar [Germany]
New Mexico get $2.03 back per tax dollar [Greece]

An analogy would be:
It's like New Jersey (Germany) is funding New Mexico (Greece) & said no more!! Both NJ & NM continue to function but NM welfare recipients get a benefit cut to bring it back to where it's more sustainable

nobody talks about the imminent bankruptcy of New Mexico, or Japan for that matter.  EVERYONE should consider why that is before commenting again about the imminent collapse of the US.

Japan has been limping along for at least two decades now. They aren't Greece. The culture is very different and hardcore. If you see Germany and Japan going down in flames at the same time, you might want to catch a ride on the nearest flying pig or start taking pics.

[ArchietheDragon]

Jun 29, 2015 14:42:17 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Jun 29, 2015 14:25:55 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

The US does it non stop...  not sure what you mean. 

by "it" I meant

-take out a bunch of fixed rate debt, long term, denominated in your own currency

- take a very high inflation rate (higher than your historical rate, which the early, fixed interest rates were based on) for a few years to devalue your obligations by ~50%, then revert to your historical inflation rate

To my knowledge, we've never done that.  We do have inflation every year, but it's been pretty tame.

Countries don't set their own inflation rate.    (except China who does manipulate their currency ).   the market place set the inflation rate.    But the US has the ability to issue or buy back US dollars.   Greece has no such ability and it has screwed them big time. 

[mroped]

After the initial core for the formation of EU, all NATO members in Europe became members of EU. Norway, Finland and Sweden held back, turned it down.
Greece, being a member of NATO automatically became member. Had some pro arguments coming from the French and con from Germans, Italians etc.
There is literally nothing to speak of for industry besides shipbuilding and as far as agriculture goes, on top of olive orchards they have some good wine and goat cheese 
They produce one of the best cognacs-METAXA
But they are loaded with history and beautiful islands. Tourism might be now their biggest income producer.

They will not be kicked out of EU, the French won't let that happen. But they might choose themselves to walk out and that will start some major infighting.

Never seen a people to be more relaxed, laid back. To make matters worse they tend to be a bit arrogant too, no matter who they talk to.
Never understood why because as far as history goes, after the rise of the Roman Empire, Greece basically ceased to exist as an independent country until about 1850 or so.
Their greatest of the greats was not even Greek but they refuse to accept that.
I'm talking about Alexander the Great also known as Alexander Macedon, son of Phillip the second, king of Macedonia which was not part of Greece at the time.

[obelisk]

It is just a matter of time until Greece gets kicked out of the EU.  The numbers do not lie.  The Greeks cannot finance their economy as is.  Unless they make drastic changes to their economic structure there is no hope.  The Greek government is unable to make the necessary changes to balance their future growth.

[Spellbound454]

I think they'll probably default on Wednesday....then, barring a miracle they will be headed for the door.

They have had such severe austerity for such a long time.....many people will think things can't get much worse.......although obviously they can.

You have to feel sorry for what the people of Greece are going though....but also for the people they owe money too...and who are unlikely to get it back.

It will effect the countries of the EU but mostly the countries of the monetary union.....the Eurozone.

(Britain is in the EU but does not have the Euro)

Investors will think that the Euro is not safe.....and its value is likely to decrease.

It will effect Britain also because Europe is our largest market. Scary and uncertain days.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2015 14:12:14 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Jun 27, 2015 14:23:47 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i don't.  but you probably don't want to hear why.  let me know if i am wrong.

is it because we can always just hose all our creditors and leaches by inflating the currency and not adjusting payments upwards (ie, pay off with devalued currency)?

it is because we have unmatched liquidity.  there is a lot of other "stuff" we have that underlies it, but that is basically it.

i am thinking not everyone will understand that statement, so let me ask you this.  let's say that you are China.  you have $500B in cash.  what do you do with it?

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2015 14:18:27 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Jun 29, 2015 12:57:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

nobody talks about the imminent bankruptcy of New Mexico, or Japan for that matter.  EVERYONE should consider why that is before commenting again about the imminent collapse of the US.

Not sure about Japan,  but according to politifact US states can't go bankrupt... the reason... they can always tax more. 

politifact is stupid.  sorry, but that explanation of WHY is totally wrong.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2015 14:19:51 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

Jun 29, 2015 14:15:26 GMT -5 The Captain said:

According to the WSJ the government has ordered the banks to close for 6 days to avoid a rush on cash.

Can you imagine that happening here?

Wow.  Just, wow.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Banking_Act

but they won't take the gold you have in your safe deposit box

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

thank you FDR

and Nixon.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2015 14:29:48 GMT -5 alwaysbeoptimizing said:

My guess is they'll exit the Euro, default on all of their debt, convert any Euro denominated deposits held by Greek companies and people into some new fiat currency that will be worth next to nothing.

From there, the crystal ball gets cloudier to see if it becomes a puppet state for someone like the Soviet Union, or becomes even more corrupt and crime filled and just disentigrates.

we have been f(*king with Greece since 1948- why not us?

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2015 14:35:47 GMT -5 Opti said:

Jun 29, 2015 12:57:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

nobody talks about the imminent bankruptcy of New Mexico, or Japan for that matter.  EVERYONE should consider why that is before commenting again about the imminent collapse of the US.

Japan has been limping along for at least two decades now.

closer to FOUR.

They aren't Greece. The culture is very different and hardcore. If you see Germany and Japan going down in flames at the same time, you might want to catch a ride on the nearest flying pig or start taking pics.

LOL!

[djAdvocate]

Jun 29, 2015 17:44:34 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

So another thread on this subject got me to thinking...would there be any benefit for the Us to go in, bankroll Greece and use their EU status to our benefit?  Could it be done? Would we gain trade benefits, or by having a seat at the EU table?  

Hmmm...

make Greece a US subsidiary? 

[mroped]

Don't worry! We kinda support their military through NATO anyway.
And to bankroll them and make them our puppet, alright, not decent but who cares?
Question is bankroll them for what?
There are no resources-beside manpower, goats, weird wine and boats-, industry is almost inexistent, and how many times can one visit the Acropolis ar the island of Chios?

[Ombud]

With the PIIGS out there, why would we want a seat at the EU governing board?? A seat on NATO is plenty.

The euro was invaluable in making their economies more fluid in a time when people carried only cash. But some countries saw beyond that (UK, Norway, Denmark, Sweden ...). In fact 9 of the 28 in the EU are not on the euro and thus not part of this debacle. Bet they're glad they didn't convert now!

Russia has it's own monetary issues. Price the ruble recently?