Should horrible crimes be publicized?

[midjd]

There's a pretty strong argument against overly publicizing the commission of horrible crimes -- often because it seems to focus on the criminal (to the detriment of the victims), and other would-be criminals may look at it as a way to quick fame. I'm sure it's horrible for the surviving family members to have their life's most painful moment replayed over and over again, and all aspects of the situation dissected by the public.

On the other hand, public awareness of certain types of crime may help propel legislation or other measures to help reduce crime. And, of course, the advertising dollars stimulate the economy. That's about all I can come up with in the "pro" category, but there may be more.

What do you think?

[Tennesseer]

Kind of hard to ignore nine people murdered in a church, no?

[grumpyhermit]

Our news already feels sanitized to me. I am not sure I would be okay with it being even further filtered so that we only get to see what "they" deem as "appropriate". Realizing of course that this already happens, but not quite so blatantly.

I am pretty sure if I had members of my family senselessly killed I wouldn't want that swept under the rug. Maybe I would, but my gut reaction is that how can we ever hope to fix the problem, either at the personal or societal level, if we just pretend it doesn't exist and actively ignore it.

[hoops902]

Jun 23, 2015 10:33:04 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Kind of hard to ignore nine people murdered in a church, no?

You don't have to ignore it by simply not overly publicizing it.

But on a larger scale, no, not hard to ignore.  How many people died in this country yesterday?  Compare that to 9.  The story is really being made about the person who committed the crime.  The question then becomes whether or not it is a good idea to give publicity to people who commit these crimes.  This story is no more heartbreaking to the victims than 9 people murdered by 9 individuals across the country...which don't make the news unless it's a particularly attractive white woman or child.

[hoops902]

Jun 23, 2015 10:41:05 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

Our news already feels sanitized to me. I am not sure I would be okay with it being even further filtered so that we only get to see what "they" deem as "appropriate". Realizing of course that this already happens, but not quite so blatantly.

I am pretty sure if I had members of my family senselessly killed I wouldn't want that swept under the rug. Maybe I would, but my gut reaction is that how can we ever hope to fix the problem, either at the personal or societal level, if we just pretend it doesn't exist and actively ignore it.

I don't think the argument is about giving you the news or not.  To me, it's about whether we need to talk about what Murderer A had for lunch that day, how many friends he has on Facebook, what his belief system is, how old he was when he killed his first squirrel, the manifesto he wrote about how Teletubbies are a microcosm of nursing home hierarchies, etc.  We turn serial/mass murderers into celebrities.

[grumpyhermit]

But does the killing of the 9, which was motivated by all accounts a political agenda, serve as a lens to a bigger problem?

To me it is less about measuring the level of suffering of the surviving family, and more about shining a light on the bigger issues. How often have we heard that "racism isn't a big deal in this country anymore"? Bullshit, yes it is, and events like the SC shooting just help to highlight it. Maybe it isn't comfortable, and maybe it does give more publicity to the shooter, but it does feed into a larger conversation that we need to have in this country, but seem to want to just pretend is no longer an issue.

I don't think the argument is about giving you the news or not. To me, it's about whether we need to talk about what Murderer A had for lunch that day, how many friends he has on Facebook, what his belief system is, how old he was when he killed his first squirrel, the manifesto he wrote about how Teletubbies are a microcosm of nursing home hierarchies, etc. We turn serial/mass murderers into celebrities.

I will agree that the ridiculous dissection of their every move is ridiculous. I am a pretty far left liberal, and even I was had some serious WTF moments when reading some of the articles on Salon about him. I really do not care in the slightest that the cops stopped and got him Burger King after picking him up. Are you kidding? What are they supposed to do? Let him starve?

Regarding his belief system and his manifestos - those to me seem more relevant. Would you rather we just say "Crazy dude killed 9 black people in a church. Nothing to see here, move along." Is there really nothing to be gained from looking at him in the larger context of his belief system and environment?

[grumpyhermit]

Also, what is the metric for "horrible" in this context?

Are we talking mainly mass shootings killings, or are we also talking isolated instances that are greatly disturbing (i.e. parents locking children in closets and slowly starving them to death, etc.)? Who gets to make that decision?

I don't disagree that we, as a country, take it too far sometimes. The coverage of some of these stories becomes little more than another form of entertainment - but I think you have to take the good with the bad. If you want a "free press" you shouldn't get to control what they report.

People need to make the decision of what to read for themselves.

[Deleted]

In this case, with all the publicity, are you seeing how many times the shooter told his friend that he was going to do something big, take the problem into his own hands? The 'friend' did not take him seriously. Maybe this kind of publicity will make others think about taking those kinds of statements seriously and reporting before something happens. However there is not much at all that authorities can do until the person actually does something harmful. 

With this kids weird behavior at the mall, it seems like the authorities there actually prevented him from turning into a mall shooter by being aware of his odd behavior scoping the place out. They just lucked out that he had illegal drugs on him so could be arrested, but they were in tune enough to see something funny was going on.

[hoops902]

::Regarding his belief system and his manifestos - those to me seem more relevant. Would you rather we just say "Crazy dude killed 9 black people in a church. Nothing to see here, move along." Is there really nothing to be gained from looking at him in the larger context of his belief system and environment? ::

In as much as we believe in free speech, it seems not that relevant...or at least not more relevant than the belief systems of a bunch of other individuals who don't murder a bunch of people.  For example, if race is still an issue, it's an issue whether or not some nutjob walks into a church and opens fire.  Just like depression and mental health are problems whether or not someone walks into a school and opens fire, or offs themselves in their bedroom closet. 

::People need to make the decision of what to read for themselves. ::

While I agree, part of the argument is that by making these people celebrities, we're incentivizing others to follow suit.

[midjd]

I thought about starting this thread a couple of weeks ago -- before Charleston. I follow our local Fox affiliate on Facebook and there are at least 2-3 stories a day of someone abusing or killing a child in a particularly gory way (local and national). I try to avoid those stories because I find them very upsetting. The reader comments tend to be of the "bullets are cheap!" and "let me at him/her" variety, so I'm not sure they really add much to the public dialogue about domestic violence.

Of course, I could just unfollow Fox59 and that would limit my exposure to these headlines -- but obviously I'm in the minority on this, or they wouldn't run so many "if it bleeds, it leads" stories. And there are plenty of other "child stomped to death" headlines from other news sources, so it would be hard to limit one's exposure entirely. 

This is a different issue than the celebritization (?) of spree killers, which I do think is a problem. 

I don't know what my question is, but I'm enjoying the debate!

[midjd]

I am pretty sure if I had members of my family senselessly killed I wouldn't want that swept under the rug.

One of the complaints I've seen is that everyone in the country knows the name Dylann Roof (including me, and I've stayed away from the stories), but very few know the names of even one of the victims. If I were a surviving family member, that would anger me greatly. 

[grumpyhermit]

I personally don't have the stomach to read the child killing stories, and tend to just avoid them. I have a pretty low opinion of "people" as a collective whole already, but stories like that make it dip even lower still. And you are right - the comment section on such articles are usually a true cesspool, and it isn't about dialogue, but spewing even more hatred.

I am not sure how we un-ring that bell in this country. There must be a market for it, and if it gets clicks, they are going to continue to run it.

On the same note, while I have read the articles about the various cop shootings I have yet to watch any of those with video. I really don't get the urge to watch someone gunned down on video. It seems morbid to me. I know that in some cases there may be value (at least in the fact that we can see the actions of each actor, and the timing) I don't understand the rush to view it from the average person.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 23, 2015 11:20:46 GMT -5 midjd said:

I am pretty sure if I had members of my family senselessly killed I wouldn't want that swept under the rug.

One of the complaints I've seen is that everyone in the country knows the name Dylann Roof (including me, and I've stayed away from the stories), but very few know the names of even one of the victims. If I were a surviving family member, that would anger me greatly. 

But what do you do when there are so many victims? Tough to know the names of all the victims. Think Oklahoma City, Newtown, Ct., and Virginia Tech.

Easier to remember one name like Kitty Genovese than a dozen. I am dating myself by the way with Kitty Genovese.

[grumpyhermit]

Jun 23, 2015 11:20:46 GMT -5 midjd said:

I am pretty sure if I had members of my family senselessly killed I wouldn't want that swept under the rug.

One of the complaints I've seen is that everyone in the country knows the name Dylann Roof (including me, and I've stayed away from the stories), but very few know the names of even one of the victims. If I were a surviving family member, that would anger me greatly. 

Guilty. I have not read that many articles, mostly seen headlines, and yes, his name is the only one I would recognize. Though I am not sure that actually knowing the identity of each victim is critical to having the larger conversation.

I honestly don't know how I would feel in that situation. Would it be more important to me to have my loved one remembered by name? Or for their death to have some meaningful impact on reform, even if their names are forgotten. Not that any of these shootings seem to sway the needle on reform anyway, so that point is sadly moot at the moment.

[hoops902]

Jun 23, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 23, 2015 11:20:46 GMT -5 midjd said:

One of the complaints I've seen is that everyone in the country knows the name Dylann Roof (including me, and I've stayed away from the stories), but very few know the names of even one of the victims. If I were a surviving family member, that would anger me greatly. 

But what do you do when there are so many victims? Tough to know the names of all the victims. Think Oklahoma City, Newtown, Ct., and Virginia Tech.

Easier to remember one name like Kitty Genovese than a dozen. I am dating myself by the way with Kitty Genovese.

Or what do you do in that maybe not every victim's family wants their names out in the media.  I wouldn't.  Seems a lot more responsible to not make a big deal about the victim names since we can't know their wishes if they're deceased.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 23, 2015 12:09:42 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jun 23, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

But what do you do when there are so many victims? Tough to know the names of all the victims. Think Oklahoma City, Newtown, Ct., and Virginia Tech.

Easier to remember one name like Kitty Genovese than a dozen. I am dating myself by the way with Kitty Genovese.

Or what do you do in that maybe not every victim's family wants their names out in the media.  I wouldn't.  Seems a lot more responsible to not make a big deal about the victim names since we can't know their wishes if they're deceased.

Initially, putting the names of the victims out there immediately after the incident is okay. But I believe the families should be allowed to grieve in private for how ever long they need. Once they are ready to discuss with the world what happened, then its appropriate to name the victims again.

Some victim families may also not want their names published too much because it could possibly draw attention to a relative who may have a bit of a shady past.

[Phoenix84]

Jun 23, 2015 10:41:10 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jun 23, 2015 10:33:04 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Kind of hard to ignore nine people murdered in a church, no?

You don't have to ignore it by simply not overly publicizing it.

But on a larger scale, no, not hard to ignore.  How many people died in this country yesterday?  Compare that to 9.  The story is really being made about the person who committed the crime.  The question then becomes whether or not it is a good idea to give publicity to people who commit these crimes.  This story is no more heartbreaking to the victims than 9 people murdered by 9 individuals across the country...which don't make the news unless it's a particularly attractive white woman or child.

I do wish there was a little more perspective in news reporting. Inter racial crime is pretty rare, and violent crime has been on the decline for decades. Most violent crime is between people of the same race.

But that kind of thing doesn't sell.

[cktc]

Jun 23, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 23, 2015 11:20:46 GMT -5 midjd said:

Easier to remember one name like Kitty Genovese than a dozen. I am dating myself by the way with Kitty Genovese.

Not too dated, Kitty Genovese is probably in every Psych 101 book. I think her case highlights that the further events are from social expectations the more likely it is they will be remembered, and studied. 

[Deleted]

Kind of similar but sometimes I feel bad watching a Dateline show about the murder of someone.  It is just a way to pass some time for me, watching the story of the killing of someone' loved one.  I see parents being interviewed so think maybe they want people to know though.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 23, 2015 15:57:35 GMT -5 cktc said:

Jun 23, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Easier to remember one name like Kitty Genovese than a dozen. I am dating myself by the way with Kitty Genovese.

Not too dated, Kitty Genovese is probably in every Psych 101 book. I think her case highlights that the further events are from social expectations the more likely it is they will be remembered, and studied. 

I remember reading it in the newspapers when it happened!

[Chocolate Lover]

Jun 23, 2015 11:20:46 GMT -5 midjd said:

I am pretty sure if I had members of my family senselessly killed I wouldn't want that swept under the rug.

One of the complaints I've seen is that everyone in the country knows the name Dylann Roof (including me, and I've stayed away from the stories), but very few know the names of even one of the victims. If I were a surviving family member, that would anger me greatly. 

It's a complaint about every highly publicized crime, particularly ones with multiple victims. 

Name a victim of Ted Bundy's without using Google. The criminal gets remembered and the victims become a
mass of faces, barely remembered. 

The only one in recent memory that I recall a victim's name rather than the killer is Gabby Giffords. I still recall that the shooter looked like Uncle Fester though. 

[cktc]

Jun 23, 2015 16:14:50 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 23, 2015 15:57:35 GMT -5 cktc said:

Not too dated, Kitty Genovese is probably in every Psych 101 book. I think her case highlights that the further events are from social expectations the more likely it is they will be remembered, and studied. 

I remember reading it in the newspapers when it happened!

Well yeah, now you are dating yourself! 

[Artemis Windsong]

I say do not publicize.  I know this tromps on free speech and our right to know BUT it give the perps their fame and lime light.  It creates copy cats and gives them an idea on how-to. 

The crime dramas and violent video games give unstable perps ideas.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 23, 2015 16:31:45 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

I say do not publicize.  I know this tromps on free speech and our right to know BUT it give the perps their fame and lime light.  It creates copy cats and gives them an idea on how-to. 

The crime dramas and violent video games give unstable perps ideas.

I will say there is some merit to creating copy cat killers.

Back in the early 70s, my aunt was murdered. She let her paperboy (or some young person who made deliveries) into her home of whom she had a general acquaintance. He wanted to rob her so he beat her over her back with her dining room chairs and once she was on the ground and out, set her on fire while she lay on wooded floors. The wood floor underneath her caught fire and the embers slowly roasted her to death.

The police shortly had someone arrested. But about two weeks later another older woman was murdered and the method of death was similar. Police determined the had the right guy who killed my aunt and the other woman was the victim of a copy cat killing. Another person was arrested and prosecuted. Both went to jail for murder.

[Shooby]

There are some things in life that are unpleasant truths. I think that truth is better than suppressing things. Now, does that not mean that every gruesome detail needs to be public fodder.

[hoops902]

Jun 23, 2015 16:41:21 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 23, 2015 16:31:45 GMT -5 Artemis Windsong said:

I say do not publicize.  I know this tromps on free speech and our right to know BUT it give the perps their fame and lime light.  It creates copy cats and gives them an idea on how-to. 

The crime dramas and violent video games give unstable perps ideas.

I will say there is some merit to creating copy cat killers.

Back in the early 70s, my aunt was murdered. She let her paperboy (or some young person who made deliveries) into her home of whom she had a general acquaintance. He wanted to rob her so he beat her over her back with her dining room chairs and once she was on the ground and out, set her on fire while she lay on wooded floors. The wood floor underneath her caught fire and the embers slowly roasted her to death.

The police shortly had someone arrested. But about two weeks later another older woman was murdered and the method of death was similar. Police determined the had the right guy who killed my aunt and the other woman was the victim of a copy cat killing. Another person was arrested and prosecuted. Both went to jail for murder.

Maybe I missed it, but where was the merit there?

[Tennesseer]

Jun 23, 2015 17:00:47 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Jun 23, 2015 16:41:21 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I will say there is some merit to creating copy cat killers.

Back in the early 70s, my aunt was murdered. She let her paperboy (or some young person who made deliveries) into her home of whom she had a general acquaintance. He wanted to rob her so he beat her over her back with her dining room chairs and once she was on the ground and out, set her on fire while she lay on wooded floors. The wood floor underneath her caught fire and the embers slowly roasted her to death.

The police shortly had someone arrested. But about two weeks later another older woman was murdered and the method of death was similar. Police determined the had the right guy who killed my aunt and the other woman was the victim of a copy cat killing. Another person was arrested and prosecuted. Both went to jail for murder.

Maybe I missed it, but where was the merit there?

Not posting the mode of murder in the local newspaper?

[hoops902]

You said there was merit to creating copy cat killers, then went on to tell a story about how 2 people were dead.  What was the merit in creating a copy cat killer? 

[cktc]

Jun 23, 2015 17:24:53 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

You said there was merit to creating copy cat killers, then went on to tell a story about how 2 people were dead.  What was the merit in creating a copy cat killer? 

Not merit in creating a killer, merit to the point that publishing information creates copycats. 

[zibazinski]

Jun 23, 2015 11:27:53 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Jun 23, 2015 11:20:46 GMT -5 midjd said:

One of the complaints I've seen is that everyone in the country knows the name Dylann Roof (including me, and I've stayed away from the stories), but very few know the names of even one of the victims. If I were a surviving family member, that would anger me greatly. 

But what do you do when there are so many victims? Tough to know the names of all the victims. Think Oklahoma City, Newtown, Ct., and Virginia Tech.

Easier to remember one name like Kitty Genovese than a dozen. I am dating myself by the way with Kitty Genovese.

My Dad's sister was one of those who heard and didn't call police. My Dad was so mad he almost booted her out of the apartment he was paying for for her.