tskeeter
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 14:32:30 GMT -5
Post by tskeeter on Jun 22, 2015 14:32:30 GMT -5
Well, the more money he pays to an attorney, the less money he has to drink with. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe, the fines for a second DUI charge should be like $50K. Not dischargeable in bankruptcy. The third charge? Not less than $200K? Can't pay the fines? We have this nice residential program that will allow you to work off your fines. When a friend of mine got addicted to pain killers he spent the mortgage money on pills... Some people are drunks. Them, cutting off funding might help. Some people are addicts. They'll do whatever they have to do to feed their addiction, regardless of the conseqences. But some of these folks can be treated successfully. Some people, I think, have addictive personalities. For them, it's not a question of whether or not they will become addicted. It's a question of what they will become addicted to. And, if treated for one type of addiction, they are probably likely to move on to some other addiction. Or back and forth between a variety of addictions. (I watched this happen to a former GF.) For these folks, who are unable to control their addictions, maybe some kind of "residential program" is their best hope for managing the behavior that has such an adverse effect on their lives.
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Deleted
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 15:34:20 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 15:34:20 GMT -5
The way you defend this guy actually makes me wonder if you're this guy? Or he's somehow related to you. Well, when a habitual drunk driver permanently cripples one of your friends and he gets off AGAIN with a slap on the wrist while she has to walk with a cane in constant pain, loses her job and has to fight to get disability, let's see how you feel then. Btw, the drunks are usually judgment proof because they've lost job after job for being a drunk. Amazingly, this guy had insurance. 100k, the bare minimum. Doesn't own a home, of course. Nothing to even go after while her life, at age 48, is permanently altered. You can not find one sentence in this thread where I defended him or his actions, not one. If that matters to you. I asked about an alternative to jail time.
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Deleted
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 15:42:32 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 15:42:32 GMT -5
My take away of this thread is that posters here are happy with the way things are and do not want to discuss any type of change. Drunk drivers are terrible people, so fuck them and their families. Is that a fair assessment? I posted repeatedly that drunk driving is wrong. Any conversation that tries to help the drunk driver is seen as condoning drunk driving. The guy with 5 DUIs didnt change his behavior with the current system. So thats proof that he is a bad moron and nothing to do with the system as is not working for some criminal behavior. All I did was want to talk about other ways to deal with DUIs. I said I wasn't even saying the idea was a good idea, just wanted thoughts on it and it gets drowned out by people who can't listen to anything but punishment. I asked about his family and people ignore the fact that jail could push them into poverty and all the consequences of that. It was just an idea, but people have to prove how much they oppose drunk driving so they posture as hard asses and are closed off to debating anything else. so sad. I often represent people with 5+ DWI's.
If they've gotten to 5, they already have been through the mandatory testing, restricted use license, no license, mandated counseling, etc. etc. The person is an alcoholic and will stop drinking only if they are committed to it, change their social environment, and find a supportive environment.
At a certain point, they only option is chuck them in jail for the safety of the community.
ETA: I feel for the guy. I feel for his family. Alcoholism is a horrible disease. I would argue that he needs supervision. And my argument would probably be ignored.
One of the questions I was wanting answered when I started this post was what has the lawyer done for his/her $7500? He hasn't been sentenced or anything. Have there been a bunch of court appearances already where an attorney was needed? Has the attorney done anything behind the scenes? I realize you don't know the particulars of this case, so just guess please. I think you are probably right with your 2nd paragraph, its just that your ETA: is something I agree with a lot and was curious if any other options might work. Thank you for the answer.
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obelisk
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Jun 22, 2015 15:44:36 GMT -5
Post by obelisk on Jun 22, 2015 15:44:36 GMT -5
Maybe the $7500 is the retainer.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 22, 2015 15:54:07 GMT -5
I would actually be okay with a breathalyzer lock. However, I would want it in place after the first offense, and it would need to be in place for a fairly long time (5-10 years).
If you somehow bypass the lock; either by getting someone else to "start" the car, or using cars that don't have the lock; do not pass go, do not collect $200 dollars.
I don't really know how much these things cost though - and how they would be monitored (if they are); but in theory I would support something like that in addition to the various fines/community service for a first time offender. I can't imagine anyone thinks that it is actually okay to drive drunk, meaning those that do are making a conscious decision to endanger others, and they just don't give a shit about the possible consequences. Therefore I don't really see the benefit in "education" type programs for offenders.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 22, 2015 15:54:59 GMT -5
The way you defend this guy actually makes me wonder if you're this guy? Or he's somehow related to you. Well, when a habitual drunk driver permanently cripples one of your friends and he gets off AGAIN with a slap on the wrist while she has to walk with a cane in constant pain, loses her job and has to fight to get disability, let's see how you feel then. Btw, the drunks are usually judgment proof because they've lost job after job for being a drunk. Amazingly, this guy had insurance. 100k, the bare minimum. Doesn't own a home, of course. Nothing to even go after while her life, at age 48, is permanently altered. You can not find one sentence in this thread where I defended him or his actions, not one. If that matters to you. I asked about an alternative to jail time. Nah, you just don't want the poor dear punished too severely. AFTER 5 DUIs! Sorry, jail is where he belongs.
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swamp
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 17:28:22 GMT -5
Post by swamp on Jun 22, 2015 17:28:22 GMT -5
I often represent people with 5+ DWI's.
If they've gotten to 5, they already have been through the mandatory testing, restricted use license, no license, mandated counseling, etc. etc. The person is an alcoholic and will stop drinking only if they are committed to it, change their social environment, and find a supportive environment.
At a certain point, they only option is chuck them in jail for the safety of the community.
ETA: I feel for the guy. I feel for his family. Alcoholism is a horrible disease. I would argue that he needs supervision. And my argument would probably be ignored.
One of the questions I was wanting answered when I started this post was what has the lawyer done for his/her $7500? He hasn't been sentenced or anything. Have there been a bunch of court appearances already where an attorney was needed? Has the attorney done anything behind the scenes? I realize you don't know the particulars of this case, so just guess please. I think you are probably right with your 2nd paragraph, its just that your ETA: is something I agree with a lot and was curious if any other options might work. Thank you for the answer. Retainer: Appear in court, review file, file appropriate motions, talk to DA and judge about a plea and sentence, evaluate the case and see if it's worth hearings and a trial. Advise client on options and possible ramifications of each option. Just because he got arrested doesn't mean he will be convicted. He probably will, but not always.
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NoNamePerson
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 17:49:55 GMT -5
Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 22, 2015 17:49:55 GMT -5
In 40 years when self driving cars are the norm, we are going to wonder how the fuck we used to let so many people drive drunk. I envision cars pulling up to bars and filling up
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NoNamePerson
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 17:55:23 GMT -5
Post by NoNamePerson on Jun 22, 2015 17:55:23 GMT -5
I suggest a weekend jail term like work release. First offense every Friday and Saturday maybe 7PM Friday to 9AM Sunday in lockup. It would be separate from other jails so low security but away from bars, parties, family and friends with no alcohol or drugs and they would pay for the room and board and Saturday would be a work day like an honor farm and or classes on why they shouldn't drink and drive. I would give them maybe 10 weekends first offense, a year second offense and 5 year third offense. Nobody drinks and drives by accident, they choose before heading to a party or bar, they know how they will get home before accepting a single drink. There is no excuse for even the first offense.Many hard core drinkers do not only drink during weekends. You've taken away their 'play' time, but you still haven't stopped their likelihood of getting on the road while drunk. They double during the weekend, but still drink during the week. I knew someone that I just called "an after 5 PM drunk" Kept scotch in office and started at 5 when office closed. He would stay in office and work till around 7/8 and drinking the whole time then head home. One of those "fast" drinkers too. Hmm, wonder what ever happened to him?
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Tennesseer
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 18:05:12 GMT -5
Post by Tennesseer on Jun 22, 2015 18:05:12 GMT -5
The way you defend this guy actually makes me wonder if you're this guy? Or he's somehow related to you. Well, when a habitual drunk driver permanently cripples one of your friends and he gets off AGAIN with a slap on the wrist while she has to walk with a cane in constant pain, loses her job and has to fight to get disability, let's see how you feel then. Btw, the drunks are usually judgment proof because they've lost job after job for being a drunk. Amazingly, this guy had insurance. 100k, the bare minimum. Doesn't own a home, of course. Nothing to even go after while her life, at age 48, is permanently altered. You can not find one sentence in this thread where I defended him or his actions, not one. If that matters to you. I asked about an alternative to jail time. Relocation for two years to a remote U.S. island with no liquor or drugs and the only mode of transportation is foot or donkey.
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Deleted
Joined: Jun 18, 2024 8:38:42 GMT -5
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 18:09:20 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 18:09:20 GMT -5
One of the questions I was wanting answered when I started this post was what has the lawyer done for his/her $7500? He hasn't been sentenced or anything. Have there been a bunch of court appearances already where an attorney was needed? Has the attorney done anything behind the scenes? I realize you don't know the particulars of this case, so just guess please. I think you are probably right with your 2nd paragraph, its just that your ETA: is something I agree with a lot and was curious if any other options might work. Thank you for the answer. Retainer: Appear in court, review file, file appropriate motions, talk to DA and judge about a plea and sentence, evaluate the case and see if it's worth hearings and a trial. Advise client on options and possible ramifications of each option. Just because he got arrested doesn't mean he will be convicted. He probably will, but not always. Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 22, 2015 18:15:40 GMT -5
Retainer: Appear in court, review file, file appropriate motions, talk to DA and judge about a plea and sentence, evaluate the case and see if it's worth hearings and a trial. Advise client on options and possible ramifications of each option. Just because he got arrested doesn't mean he will be convicted. He probably will, but not always. Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much? If the drunk doesn't care, why should the judge care?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 22, 2015 18:21:40 GMT -5
Retainer: Appear in court, review file, file appropriate motions, talk to DA and judge about a plea and sentence, evaluate the case and see if it's worth hearings and a trial. Advise client on options and possible ramifications of each option. Just because he got arrested doesn't mean he will be convicted. He probably will, but not always. Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much? So Hinkle.....how many chances do you think a drunk driver should get? Until he kills someone? The judge and DA is not doing this to the person, this person is CHOOSING to get drunk and CHOOSING to drive. They are doing it to themselves.
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zibazinski
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 18:23:37 GMT -5
Post by zibazinski on Jun 22, 2015 18:23:37 GMT -5
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Deleted
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 18:31:50 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 18:31:50 GMT -5
Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much? So Hinkle.....how many chances do you think a drunk driver should get? Until he kills someone?The judge and DA is not doing this to the person, this person is CHOOSING to get drunk and CHOOSING to drive. They are doing it to themselves. I think there should be consequences after 1 DUI. The person who drove drunk chose to do something that put a great many people at risk of significant harm or death. No one disagrees with that, certainly not me. Why do you think it wrong of me to ask about alternatives to jail?
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taz157
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Jun 22, 2015 18:36:15 GMT -5
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Post by taz157 on Jun 22, 2015 18:36:15 GMT -5
Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much? If the drunk doesn't care, why should the judge care? Yeah that!
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 22, 2015 18:36:16 GMT -5
Retainer: Appear in court, review file, file appropriate motions, talk to DA and judge about a plea and sentence, evaluate the case and see if it's worth hearings and a trial. Advise client on options and possible ramifications of each option. Just because he got arrested doesn't mean he will be convicted. He probably will, but not always. Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much? What about the family of the anyone he's likely to kill when he gets off Scott free once again? Shouldn't someone care about them? Why so much concern for the family of the drunk driver and none for the innocent lives he will surely destroy if he continues his behavior? The drunk is the one who should be concerned about his family. And once he does succeed in killing or maiming someone (and he will if he continues to drive drunk), if he has a family, should he just be turned loose to do it again?
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taz157
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Jun 22, 2015 18:36:38 GMT -5
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Post by taz157 on Jun 22, 2015 18:36:38 GMT -5
Is there much variance in the results of similar cases? Does the judge or DA care what 2 years in jail will do to a family or the family's finances? I would think them losing his salary for 2 years could mean losing a house or if wife has a low paying job, them having to go on welfare. What are some things you would like to be able to tell judge or DA? If drunk driver could prove sobriety since arrest would that help much? So Hinkle.....how many chances do you think a drunk driver should get? Until he kills someone? The judge and DA is not doing this to the person, this person is CHOOSING to get drunk and CHOOSING to drive. They are doing it to themselves.Yeah that!
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jun 22, 2015 18:39:04 GMT -5
So Hinkle.....how many chances do you think a drunk driver should get? Until he kills someone?The judge and DA is not doing this to the person, this person is CHOOSING to get drunk and CHOOSING to drive. They are doing it to themselves. I think there should be consequences after 1 DUI. The person who drove drunk chose to do something that put a great many people at risk of significant harm or death. No one disagrees with that, certainly not me. Why do you think it wrong of me to ask about alternatives to jail? This has gone on for 6 pages and no one has given an alternative for a guy who had 5 DUIs. Do you really think you're going to find one? If you can't do the time, don't do the crime...
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Deleted
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 18:42:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 18:42:04 GMT -5
I think there should be consequences after 1 DUI. The person who drove drunk chose to do something that put a great many people at risk of significant harm or death. No one disagrees with that, certainly not me. Why do you think it wrong of me to ask about alternatives to jail? This has gone on for 6 pages and no one has given an alternative for a guy who had 5 DUIs. Do you really think you're going to find one? If you can't do the time, don't do the crime... I have .
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taz157
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Jun 22, 2015 18:45:04 GMT -5
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Post by taz157 on Jun 22, 2015 18:45:04 GMT -5
This has gone on for 6 pages and no one has given an alternative for a guy who had 5 DUIs. Do you really think you're going to find one? If you can't do the time, don't do the crime... I have . And everyone else has shot them down...
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zibazinski
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Jun 22, 2015 18:54:44 GMT -5
steff likes this
Post by zibazinski on Jun 22, 2015 18:54:44 GMT -5
You are WAy too involved emotionally in this situation for some reason. I'm sure a lot of us have drank too much at one time or another but as you grow up, mature, and see the consequences of drunks , you hopefully see the error of making foolish choices. Not only is my life important to me, I have people who depend on me. I feel that need and it guides my decisions-a lot.
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Deleted
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Jun 22, 2015 18:56:48 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 18:56:48 GMT -5
I have . And everyone else has shot them down... Someone in another thread on another subject wanted to put a bad guy into a position where he would be murdered, then prosecute the murderers. So create a situation where something illegal is probably going to happen just to get the illegal act to happen and then prosecute those who did what you set them up to do. Maybe a little blowback on that position, but I get I don't know how many criticisms for asking about alternative sentencing for DUI convicts. I don't understand some of the views of this forum and how they are anything close to ethical or merciful. Jesus Christ does not post here, so we have all done something wrong and could benefit from a generous heart.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 22, 2015 19:08:50 GMT -5
And everyone else has shot them down... Someone in another thread on another subject wanted to put a bad guy into a position where he would be murdered, then prosecute the murderers. So create a situation where something illegal is probably going to happen just to get the illegal act to happen and then prosecute those who did what you set them up to do. Maybe a little blowback on that position, but I get I don't know how many criticisms for asking about alternative sentencing for DUI convicts. I don't understand some of the views of this forum and how they are anything close to ethical or merciful. Jesus Christ does not post here, so we have all done something wrong and could benefit from a generous heart. So how ethical is it for the US justice system to give this yahoo 5+ opportunities to drive drunk and kill someone? No one is quibbling about 1-2 DUIs, but FIVE. And what you can't seem to wrap your brain around is that it is only 5 times that this guy has been caught. He's likely driven drunk 100X more frequently than that. Hinkle....are YOU the one who caught their 5th DUI?
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 22, 2015 19:10:37 GMT -5
The odds of being booked for a DUI the first time you drive drunk are extremely low. So in order to caught, you have probably driven drunk more than once. So it is probably not an "oops I made one mistake". Regardless, it doesn't sound like most first time convictions end up in jail time anyway.
So following that thread, repeat offenders are almost certainly people with serious addiction problems. You can't "fix" addicts by treating them with a "generous heart", they need to want to change. So given the fact that the change needs to come from them, and that likely no matter what the system imposes it will fail to "fix" the problem, what are we left with?
We are left with making sure they are not a danger to anyone else. As others have said, revoking licenses does little; they typically drive anyway. So what does that leave us? It leaves us with locking them up.
Maybe that seems "mean" to you, but realistically that is the only way to truly ensure they aren't a danger to anyway else, until/if such time they finally decide they have a problem.
Also, the fact that this dude has had FIVE DUI convictions, and is only NOW facing serious penalties, is what I find disturbing.
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Deleted
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DUI's
Jun 22, 2015 19:14:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 19:14:04 GMT -5
Someone in another thread on another subject wanted to put a bad guy into a position where he would be murdered, then prosecute the murderers. So create a situation where something illegal is probably going to happen just to get the illegal act to happen and then prosecute those who did what you set them up to do. Maybe a little blowback on that position, but I get I don't know how many criticisms for asking about alternative sentencing for DUI convicts. I don't understand some of the views of this forum and how they are anything close to ethical or merciful. Jesus Christ does not post here, so we have all done something wrong and could benefit from a generous heart. So how ethical is it for the US justice system to give this yahoo 5+ opportunities to drive drunk and kill someone? No one is quibbling about 1-2 DUIs, but FIVE. And what you can't seem to wrap your brain around is that it is only 5 times that this guy has been caught. He's likely driven drunk 100X more frequently than that. Hinkle....are YOU the one who caught their 5th DUI? i have no DUIs and don't drink. I can wrap my brain around all of that. What you can not seem to wrap your brain around is that I think the guy should be forced to quit drinking or go to jail. I think he should be stopped from driving drunk and should have to verify that he doesn't often enough that there can be no doubt. eta: I have no traffic violations of any kind in the last I don't know how many years, maybe 10. When I was 17 I wrote a hot check for $1 and got in some trouble for that, but no other legal troubles except traffic and again not in probably last 10 years.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 22, 2015 19:20:27 GMT -5
What you can not seem to wrap your brain around is that I think the guy should be forced to quit drinking or go to jail. I think he should be stopped from driving drunk and should have to verify that he doesn't often enough that there can be no doubt.
Do you have any idea of the other penalties he dealt with for his first 4 DUIs? You cannot force someone not to drink, they have to want to quit on their own. If none of the increasingly more severe penalties stopped him, do you really think just telling him not to drink is going to work? If he is paying out $7500 for a lawyer right now (and this isn't the first time), don't you think that that kind of hit on the wallet would cause someone to stop and think behind getting behind the wheel of a car?
Again.....how many more chances do you want to give him? He only goes to jail if he kills a family? Isn't it a little late then? You don't undo dead.
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Deleted
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Jun 22, 2015 19:26:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2015 19:26:19 GMT -5
What you can not seem to wrap your brain around is that I think the guy should be forced to quit drinking or go to jail. I think he should be stopped from driving drunk and should have to verify that he doesn't often enough that there can be no doubt.Do you have any idea of the other penalties he dealt with for his first 4 DUIs? You cannot force someone not to drink, they have to want to quit on their own. If none of the increasingly more severe penalties stopped him, do you really think just telling him not to drink is going to work? If he is paying out $7500 for a lawyer right now (and this isn't the first time), don't you think that that kind of hit on the wallet would cause someone to stop and think behind getting behind the wheel of a car?
Again.....how many more chances do you want to give him? He only goes to jail if he kills a family? Isn't it a little late then? You don't undo dead.
we have different views and different ideas. I think my views are as clear as I know how to make them. I do not think we will agree on what options are worth thinking about. Thank you for the debate.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 22, 2015 19:29:22 GMT -5
I'd be going after the lawyers and judges who let some asshole out with multiple DUIS who harmed any of my loved ones. This bastard should have been in rehab after number two. Then jail after number three. Throw away the key after number four.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 22, 2015 19:44:35 GMT -5
But you ARE defending him. You keep bringing up that there must be better alternatives to jail time.
Sorry, but this guy blew those alternatives by committing repeated offenses of DUI - not once, not twice, but FIVE times.
Personally having a loved one go through "the alternatives" (hospitalization, rehab (three times) and him being cunning enough to go through the motions just to wait out his time & go through the motions just to get back out and stay clean/sober for a short time to lull loved ones/co-workers into a sense of trust, then to repeat the behavior all over again (which eventually killed him) - proves that the only way that addiction rehab/therapy works, is IF the patient/user is 100% committed to getting clean and staying clean and continuing stay clean/sober once released.
Therapists/doctors can only do so much if the person isn't 100% willing to go through the program and stick with it.
Your co-worker has proved more than once that he's not willing to give up his habit - or put other people's lives at risk.
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