Bringing Guns To Church

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Traditionally, churches / houses of worship have been considered sacred ground where the government has little jurisdiction. Nevertheless, South Carolina law expressly prohibits lawful concealed carry permit holders from bringing guns into a house of worship without the permission of the church (seems bass ackwards to me- if you're going to have it on the books, it might be better to say "unless expressly prohibited"), but I digress.  

I had a discussion yesterday with someone that believes that it's the shepherd's responsibility to protect the flock, and another person that thought it was borderline profane.  The person steadfastly in favor of the protection of innocent life person made a great point from scripture:

"From that day on, half of my men did the work, while the other half were equipped with spears, shields, bows and armor. The officers posted themselves behind all the people of Judah. who were building the wall. Those who carried materials did their work with one hand and held a weapon in the other," - Nehemiah 4:16-17

Doesn't get a whole lot more 'armed in church' than that.

[zibazinski]

The rules are like that here as well. I ignore them. No one knows but DH and he ain't a talkin!

[zibazinski]

He was dumb enough to ask permission at his Temple. Of course they said NO. I was so tempted to say things I wouldn't have been sorry for but would have had to pretend to be. But since I didn't ask permission , I carry for us.

[mroped]

In Europe, in all history, in case of an invasion people took refuge in churches. That was considered safe ground, sacred ground and nobody dared to use violence inside a church or carry any weaponry.
Even the "infidels" as Muslims were reffered to, did not enter churches armed and granted safety to those inside it. Unless ofcourse there was proof that they were hiding soldiers in which case all went out the window.

I am not a religious person but I believe that inside a church there is no room for a weapon concealed or otherwise.
I believe that those that do it show disrespect to the establishment but that is their choice.

[Tennesseer]

When it becomes necessary to carry guns to church to protect yourself from others, then we really do have a problem in this country.  When every home must have a loaded gun on hand, when every business, school, movie theater and other entertainment facilities and the like must have armed people patrolling their properties, then we really do have a problem in this country.  When every automobile driver must carry a loaded weapon because they might get involved in a dispute with another driver, then we have a problem in this country.

I have read a few articles where the pastor of the church in Charleston was responsible for the deaths of his fellow parishioners because he didn't want guns in his church.  With that train of thought, the outsider should only be charged with one murder while the pastor should be charged for the other seven deaths.  As the pastor himself was killed (the ninth dead person), he cannot be charged.

The blame for these nine deaths belong solely on the shoulders of the person with discharged the loaded gun.  No one else.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 20, 2015 14:16:42 GMT -5 mroped said:

In Europe, in all history, in case of an invasion people took refuge in churches. That was considered safe ground, sacred ground and nobody dared to use violence inside a church or carry any weaponry.
Even the "infidels" as Muslims were reffered to, did not enter churches armed and granted safety to those inside it. Unless ofcourse there was proof that they were hiding soldiers in which case all went out the window.

I am not a religious person but I believe that inside a church there is no room for a weapon concealed or otherwise.
I believe that those that do it show disrespect to the establishment but that is their choice.

Well, yeah- except for when the Muslims showed up.  

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

I pack heat at church. My pastor knows it. My wife used to give me shit about it until (before this) I showed her all the (17) church shootings that have taken place in just about the last 5 years.  I'll be honest- I worry about our kids upstairs at Sunday school. I think our church is going to get on this issue.  I'm concerned about a more widespread, coordinated church attack by islamists.  It's not a matter of "if", just when. 

[Tennesseer]

Jun 24, 2015 8:03:39 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I pack heat at church. My pastor knows it. My wife used to give me shit about it until (before this) I showed her all the (17) church shootings that have taken place in just about the last 5 years.  I'll be honest- I worry about our kids upstairs at Sunday school. I think our church is going to get on this issue.  I'm concerned about a more widespread, coordinated church attack by islamists.  It's not a matter of "if", just when. 

Fear your fellow non-muslim American citizen more. Fear the angry white American man.

[mroped]

That was the point of taking refuge in church Paul! Women, children, elderly or the wounded/unable to fight. And they were left in peace by the invaders whom were Muslims in most cases.
The Otoman Empire plagued Eastern Europe with invasions for over 400 years. They leveled fortresses, castles but never destroyed a church.

"Packing heat" going to church!  (that signifies for clarification that it realy makes me laugh!)
You are just another guy with a gun while going to church!
Yet, we are making faces when and if we see a Muslim taking off his shoes while praying or upon entering the Mosque!

[Tennesseer]

Jun 24, 2015 8:03:39 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I pack heat at church. My pastor knows it. My wife used to give me shit about it until (before this) I showed her all the (17) church shootings that have taken place in just about the last 5 years.  I'll be honest- I worry about our kids upstairs at Sunday school. I think our church is going to get on this issue.  I'm concerned about a more widespread, coordinated church attack by islamists.  It's not a matter of "if", just when. 

I am not.

Homegrown Radicals More Deadly Than Jihadis in U.S.

WASHINGTON — In the 14 years since Al Qaeda carried out attacks on New York and the Pentagon, extremists have regularly executed smaller lethal assaults in the United States, explaining their motives in online manifestos or social media rants.

But the breakdown of extremist ideologies behind those attacks may come as a surprise. Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center.

The slaying of nine African-Americans in a Charleston, S.C., church last week, with an avowed white supremacist charged with their murders, was a particularly savage case. But it is only the latest in a string of lethal attacks by people espousing racial hatred, hostility to government and theories such as those of the “sovereign citizen” movement, which denies the legitimacy of most statutory law. The assaults have taken the lives of police officers, members of racial or religious minorities and random civilians.

Non-Muslim extremists have carried out 19 such attacks since Sept. 11, according to the latest count, compiled by David Sterman, a New America program associate, and overseen by Peter Bergen, a terrorism expert. By comparison, seven lethal attacks by Islamic militants have taken place in the same period.

If such numbers are new to the public, they are familiar to police officers. A survey to be published this week asked 382 police and sheriff’s departments nationwide to rank the three biggest threats from violent extremism in their jurisdiction. About 74 percent listed antigovernment violence, while 39 percent listed “Al Qaeda-inspired” violence, according to the researchers, Charles Kurzman of the University of North Carolina and David Schanzer of Duke University.

“Law enforcement agencies around the country have told us the threat from Muslim extremists is not as great as the threat from right-wing extremists,” said Dr. Kurzman, whose study is to be published by the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security and the Police Executive Research Forum.

Complete article here:

Homegrown Radicals More Deadly Than Jihadis in U.S.

[weltschmerz]

When you have to bring arms to a house of worship to protect yourself from other Americans, you've hit rock-bottom, IMO.

[ktunes]

you've hit rock-bottom

it's going to get a lot worse before we hit rock bottom...

[Sam_2.0]

We have security guys (church members) that conceal carry on Sundays. Our church is in a not good part of town and there have been several armed robberies/break ins at surrounding churches while services are going on! Once services start all doors are locked except the main ones, and the security guys walk the parking lot (cars have been broken into during our services too). Being in MO, I would guess a good number of members in the pews are carrying also. We have a lot of gun enthusiasts in the church. I really don't care one way or the other. It doesn't make me feel more safe knowing they are carrying, but it doesn't concern me either. I've grown up around those that conceal & carry. I worry less about those who take the time to go to the classes and register their weapon than I do those that use stolen/illegal weapons.

[msventoux]

The majority of the churches I've been to (not a huge sampling) have been ones that took the phrase "praise the lord and pass the ammunition" just a little bit too literally.  However, most of those have been in somewhat rural areas where concealed and non-concealed carry isn't uncommon. 

[Peace Of Mind]

Is this why people bring them to church?

  

[ktunes]

some of the mega churches around here bring in 6 figures each weekend...pretty easy target if there were no guns around...

[weltschmerz]

[zibazinski]

A fair amount of it is in cash too. I'm in favor of the don't ask don't tell policy. I don't ask permission and I don't tell anyone except DH and he isn't going to rat me out.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Jun 24, 2015 9:27:18 GMT -5 mroped said:

That was the point of taking refuge in church Paul! Women, children, elderly or the wounded/unable to fight. And they were left in peace by the invaders whom were Muslims in most cases.
The Otoman Empire plagued Eastern Europe with invasions for over 400 years. They leveled fortresses, castles but never destroyed a church.

"Packing heat" going to church!  (that signifies for clarification that it realy makes me laugh!)
You are just another guy with a gun while going to church!
Yet, we are making faces when and if we see a Muslim taking off his shoes while praying or upon entering the Mosque!

Problem is, that was then. This is now. Churches are no longer places of refuge in the minds of nutcases and criminals. What they are, are easy marks. A criminal can be fairly certain it will be like shooting a fish in a barrel. Nobody will be there who can fight back. 

I'm torn on this.  We can't know how much difference it would have made if one of those parishioners had been able to kill the shooter. Could he have been neutralized with less casualties as a result? Would an untrained parishioner have caused even more harm shooting wildly at him? I surely don't know.

I feel safe in my church...or I should say I used to.  Not so much anymore because the bad guys count on us not wanting to show disrespect in our place of worship.  Is it disrespect?  I don't know that either, but I'll tell you...I'm considering it. 

Whomever said that when we need guns in churches, we have hit rock bottom, is probably right.  Maybe we have.  Maybe it's time to start fighting back.  Maybe it isn't.  I sure don't know but I'm putting a lot of thought into it.