Breaking up with a church

[Sam_2.0]

Hope it's ok to post this here. I just need somewhere to write this out and it seemed like a safe spot.

DH and I have been attending a certain church (we actually met there). His dad is the music pastor. My dad is an elder. My family has attended the church for nearly 20 years. I went to the school associated with the church at times when I was younger.

There have been some things going on for years now that have needed to be addressed, but no one was willing to do it. DH became a deacon two years ago. As he is a financial advisor, they placed him on the finance committee. Then the treasurer stepped down and it defaulted to DH to do. He has uncovered so many questionable things. I don't believe any of it was malicious (I really hope not!), but all things that would be not allowed if it were a "business". Not documenting things properly, mixing things betwen the church and school, etc. DH brought in a new accounting firm to audit and keep the books, and he's been working on fixing some things too. Which of course people don't like. Who is this young guy coming in and telling them what to do? Yet they don't kick him out. I think they want to gripe about him, but they realize none of the other people want to volunteer to take it on, so they will let him keep going.

DH made a commitment to stay through October. At this point, I am done with the church. I've lost respect for a lot of the leaders from the things I've learned from DH. The kids and I are looking at closer churches to our home while DH still goes to the old church. It just really stinks to leave behind the people that I do love and respect still there. There has been talk of moving the church out to our current city and basically starting up a new one, with completly new leadership. But at this point I don't know if I could even do that.

I feel overwhelmed with the thought of starting over. New people. New relationships. At this point I am so tired and burnt out that I almost don't even want to go anymore. But we've found a place very close by that Aly really loves (which is a good indicator for me) and I don't have any issues with their teaching. I think we will go there for awhile and just not get involved past Sunday services. I think we are burnt out on the business of helping to run the church.

[busymom]

So sorry, Sam_2.0!  BTDT.  But, a church is only as good as it's leadership.  Our previous church decided they weren't going to give out their financial information.  In fact, at a congregational meeting, when financial information was requested by a member, they were told "you can speak to our attorneys"!    Yet, they still have the audacity to ask for more money.  So, DH & I found a church closer to home, where they post the church finances quarterly to the members, which we like much more.  And, we've made a lot of new friends there.  Since you've got young kids, you'll make new friends too with the parents of your kid's classmates in Sunday school.  Best wishes!

[Wisconsin Beth]

Sam, there's a lot going on in your life.  Take a breather.  Go to the new church with Ally and J and just attend services.  Be JUST a parishioner for a year or two.  My church encourages us to give our time, talent or treasure.  You don't have a lot of time to give right now.  It's ok to take a breather - I think it's actually better to take a break than to get so burned out and frustrated that you drop out of the faith.  God gets it. 

[Deleted]

Jun 17, 2015 10:11:12 GMT -5 busymom said:

So sorry, Sam_2.0!  BTDT.  But, a church is only as good as it's leadership.  Our previous church decided they weren't going to give out their financial information.  In fact, at a congregational meeting, when financial information was requested by a member, they were told "you can speak to our attorneys"!    Yet, they still have the audacity to ask for more money.  So, DH & I found a church closer to home, where they post the church finances quarterly to the members, which we like much more.  And, we've made a lot of new friends there.  Since you've got young kids, you'll make new friends too with the parents of your kid's classmates in Sunday school.  Best wishes!

I agree, it is the people that make the church and sometimes you just don't get along with the people in charge.
I broke up with a church or two in my time.  

Of course it makes it makes it much more awkward when your family is involved.

[Sam_2.0]

Its absolutely "peeking behind the curtain", Sroo. I've felt that way for awhile.

I feel bad abandoning DH but I can see how much happier even Aly is. J was not happy the first week, but that's because the other babies got bottles and he didn't (because I nursed him 5mins before dropping him off!). 2nd week he had food left with him and he was good too

And I've seen people that I knew growing up, as well as some neighbors. It may be nice to make new friends and reconnect with old ones. And its big enough that I can stay under the radar for awhile if I want as well.

I love the people at our old church. Honestly there is just one " leader " causing problems. If they can get him to step aside or at least stand up to him then it would be fine. I know churches are made of people, and no one is perfect. There will be issues wherever we go. I am just tired of helping things along and need a rest.

[Shooby]

Churches are made up of flawed, sinful human beings. So, not matter where you go, you are going to find that and find people who are a work in progress or just flaming idiots as well. That's all part of the package. Not to say you shouldn't change churches. There is nothing wrong with moving on and trying a new place.  But, do you really want to move on without your spouse?  What about the benefit of worshipping as a family as well? Kids learn from watching Dad worship. Just something to think about.

Also, it doesn't have to be All or Nothing. No reason you can't go to church #1 this week and then Church #2 next week either.

[Sam_2.0]

He will join me in Oct once his term as a Deacon is up. He helps his dad lead music every Sunday so he's "working" every week. But I realized I was spending most of my time sitting out in the lobby, finding some excuse to stay busy instead of sitting in the service because I was having a bad attitude. I just needed to get away from there for a bit.

DH did say there are a few new leaders in the church stepping up and starting to take over. They've had meetings on it the past few weeks. So maybe this will just be a temporary thing and I will be back with the kids once the summer is over. Who knows.

[mmhmm]

I'm sorry this is happening, Sam_2.0. That's got to be very distressing. While I may not be a church-goer, I sure understand what it's like to have something important to you made to feel "not right". It's really disappointing. I do hope things get straightened out so you can all feel comfortable in a church you've been going to for so long.

[thyme4change]

My experience:  the grass is not greener at your new church.  It might be a different shade of brown, but all churches have politics and problems.  You can either stay out of the 'business' of any church, or figure out a way to deal with the mess of the church you like.

I suspect that all the flak your husband is taking will die down after he gets everything cleaned up and everyone gets used to the new normal.  People hate change, and they take it out on the guy who is changing it.  After a while, they will get over it.  Odd as it sounds, I bet the problems will reinvigorate when your DH leaves in October.  Leaving a fairly new system with a bunch of idiots who are unhappy - it will be a power struggle and they will try and change things again, and it will keep the fire of bad-talk, etc, going for another year or so.  If they can't find someone who will be able to sit and take it for several years (probably 5 years-ish) it will go on and on.  

[Sam_2.0]

Yeah, the old place has to make some tough choices. They should have gotten rid of the school 10 years ago, but they didn't. Now it's about to sink them financially. They didn't want to make a choice and just let things ride until they had no other choice to make. Basically this next year will tell if the school goes, the church goes, or they both go down together. The church needs to sell the oversized building they have, but they won't sell to "that" church - the other denomination that's looking for a larger building. DH is trying to convince them it's just a business transaction and to sell while they still have the chance to.

I've been to enough places to know nothing is perfect Shoot, the couple I sat next to on Sunday were from a church that we attended as a kid and the church split. That guy left to start his own place, and then was booted out of there a few years later. It's such a small world anyway. I can't walk into any of the churches in my town without knowing someone (good or bad). Mainly looking for somewhere closer where there's a good kids program. Old church has been dying out and there's no longer a kids program really. They had to let the children's minister go almost 2 years ago and it's just fallen apart since then because no one took the time to really do it.

[Opti]

Jun 17, 2015 9:54:09 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Hope it's ok to post this here. I just need somewhere to write this out and it seemed like a safe spot.

DH and I have been attending a certain church (we actually met there). His dad is the music pastor. My dad is an elder. My family has attended the church for nearly 20 years. I went to the school associated with the church at times when I was younger.

There have been some things going on for years now that have needed to be addressed, but no one was willing to do it. DH became a deacon two years ago. As he is a financial advisor, they placed him on the finance committee. Then the treasurer stepped down and it defaulted to DH to do. He has uncovered so many questionable things. I don't believe any of it was malicious (I really hope not!), but all things that would be not allowed if it were a "business". Not documenting things properly, mixing things betwen the church and school, etc. DH brought in a new accounting firm to audit and keep the books, and he's been working on fixing some things too. Which of course people don't like. Who is this young guy coming in and telling them what to do? Yet they don't kick him out. I think they want to gripe about him, but they realize none of the other people want to volunteer to take it on, so they will let him keep going.

DH made a commitment to stay through October. At this point, I am done with the church. I've lost respect for a lot of the leaders from the things I've learned from DH. The kids and I are looking at closer churches to our home while DH still goes to the old church. It just really stinks to leave behind the people that I do love and respect still there. There has been talk of moving the church out to our current city and basically starting up a new one, with completly new leadership. But at this point I don't know if I could even do that.

I feel overwhelmed with the thought of starting over. New people. New relationships. At this point I am so tired and burnt out that I almost don't even want to go anymore. But we've found a place very close by that Aly really loves (which is a good indicator for me) and I don't have any issues with their teaching. I think we will go there for awhile and just not get involved past Sunday services. I think we are burnt out on the business of helping to run the church.

Sam, depending on what it is, I don't know if I'd abandon the church over it. All churches, all denominations have issues with embezzling, money laundering, financial malefeasance etc. Not sure if it was Michael Beckwith, a minister, who shared this with our church board, but he told us a story of feeling totally screwed by a church member who did bad things with the church finances.

I was part of my church board for two years. I ran away before the third year in large part I needed to focus on job search after being laid off. I was church board president of a small church, under 125 members, and I was one of the few besides our treasurer who actually read and understood the financial reports. That is part of what happens in churches and non-profits versus profit minded businesses. They are made up of mostly non business people, not financially literate on balance sheets, etc. so they just assume someone's got it, or knows what's going on. I do not think my church had  yearly audit, or even every five years.

Leave if you don't like the services, the people, etc. IMO do not leave over financial malfeasance, just because you know about it now. Going forward that can be fixed. FWIW.

[thyme4change]

Jun 18, 2015 8:30:55 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Yeah, the old place has to make some tough choices. They should have gotten rid of the school 10 years ago, but they didn't. Now it's about to sink them financially. They didn't want to make a choice and just let things ride until they had no other choice to make. Basically this next year will tell if the school goes, the church goes, or they both go down together. The church needs to sell the oversized building they have, but they won't sell to "that" church - the other denomination that's looking for a larger building. DH is trying to convince them it's just a business transaction and to sell while they still have the chance to.

I've been to enough places to know nothing is perfect Shoot, the couple I sat next to on Sunday were from a church that we attended as a kid and the church split. That guy left to start his own place, and then was booted out of there a few years later. It's such a small world anyway. I can't walk into any of the churches in my town without knowing someone (good or bad). Mainly looking for somewhere closer where there's a good kids program. Old church has been dying out and there's no longer a kids program really. They had to let the children's minister go almost 2 years ago and it's just fallen apart since then because no one took the time to really do it.

Great example of Christian love and acceptance.

Sorry - churches are bullshit.  

[Deleted]

The church my family goes to use to be basically run by the family of the pastor that had been there for forever. He died when I was a teenager and we were looking for a new pastor. I can't remember all the details, but the family and their buddies had a problem relinquishing control of the church and there was a lot of turmoil. It came out that there were some issues with the church finances too.

Anyway, we had a top candidate and the congregation was suppose to vote on whether or not we wanted him. The Sunday we were suppose to vote, somebody called the police to have him removed from our church that day. About 4 cars came! It was shocking to see the police coming in during Sunday worship. When they found out that the man somebody wanted removed hadn't harmed anyone in any way or even been disruptive, one of them went to the mic and said that they had no business being there. It was church business, not police business if the man hadn't committed a crime, which he hadn't. They weren't going to forcibly remove him and whoever didn't want him as pastor should vote against him and handle it that way. If the majority of the congregation wanted him, it still wasn't a matter for the police.

He's been our Pastor since that day and I still think it was a good choice. That's not a breaking up with a church story though, just a strange story lol.

I have a friend whose husband was in a situation similar to your DH's. He joined a church, got his family started going, and he got really involved in the church. He ended up in some position that had something to do with the finances and they were a mess. He tried to get everything in order and do things the right way, but everyone including the Pastor fought him on it. I got the impression that the Pastor wanted the finances of the church to be handled in a loosey goosey manner because he was using some of the money beyond his salary to cover his personal money problems. My friend's husband got tired of fighting to do what was right and tired of his and his wife's generosity being taken advantage of. Whenever they had a function or something, the leaders of the church seemed to expect them to go over and beyond financially to support whatever it was. They paid their tithes and they volunteered to help with things, but it got to where it seemed like it was expected for them to contribute more and more money. To me, it was kind of crazy to expect them to do so much when he knew exactly why the church didn't have any money. He finally found a new church home for his family.

[Ryan]

I think you're being a little too critical of the "old" church to be honest.  I don't care who it is or where it is, a guy just taking over a position is not going to be received very well if he comes in and starts drastically changing things right away.  You said there didn't appear to be anything malicious, so I'm not sure why it would be necessary to bring in an audit firm to figure out what is going wrong.  There are tons of small businesses that are doing things out of ignorance, but they aren't so bad that the place needs to be turned upside down.  

I would guess that, to the members, they think your husband is treating it TOO much like a business.  He comes in, wants to hire an audit team, wants to sell the oversized building, and wants to shut down the school.  What do you think the people are going to say?  My parents church had a deacon that was in charge of finance that was SO concerned with being fiscally responsible that he depleted all the cash and they had to cut money sent to missionaries and cut staff when givings dropped.  

While you might generate some cash by selling the building to another church, you have to think about it long-term.  You likely just raised a bunch of money from members to build the church, then you sell it, and move to a smaller space.  How does that look?  Even if you were covering it out of regular offerings (no capital campaign), you have to think about WHERE you're going to go next...and if people will follow you.  You might move to another space for a reduced occupancy expense of 25%, but lose 25% of your membership in the process.

Maybe those are the right calls in the long-run, but I'm not surprised those drastic changes wouldn't go over well.

[Sam_2.0]

Given just the context here, I would agree with you Ryan. Obviously there's a lot more to the story than fits in a quick post.

After a couple of meetings I thought things were going in a different direction - that this would be a place we could stay. However, it's become very clear that it is not We are moving forward with our plan to leave. DH will stay through Oct since he promised that much. It really stinks to leave behind somewhere that has been such a big part of our lives. I've been there since I was a kid, I met DH there, we got married there, we had our kids blessed there. We know in our hearts it's time to move on, but that doesn't mean we aren't sad about it.

So now I guess I can say...we've broken up and now it's time to start "dating" other churches. Haha! That's almost what it feels like. And I am such an introvert, this part is so painful for me. It takes me a LONG time to make good friends. Several of our close friends from the old church have already moved on (about 1/3rd of the church has left in the last year *). I know where they've gone so I am tempted to try out those churches, but I don't want to pick somewhere just because my friends are there.

*that's one of the reasons for drastic budget changes, because a good chunk of the church's income left. Yet they didn't feel the need to make any reductions in budgets and got upset at DH's version of a balanced budget (ie - only within the income they actually got). They've had the building for 50+ years and at the time needed the large space. But now the church is about 1/5th of what it was at the time they built, the aging building needs about $1M in upgrades, and it's just not feasible to keep it going. They had the chance to sell about 10 years ago and should have taken it. So DH/others on the committee trying to tell them to sell now is not a new idea. They don't owe anything on the building now, but with the area of town that it's in they would be lucky to sell it at all and definitely would not get what they seem to think it's "worth".

[busymom]

Ouch! I've been there Sam. I've never understood why people who lack a background in finance are put in charge of huge amounts of a church's money. It's like they have this idea that because they're spending money doing good for a church, they don't have to worry when the final bill arrives.

Our state has seen a number of religious schools close here in the last 10 years, & occasionally if the congregation doesn't act swiftly enough, it takes down the entire church, too. People have GOT to learn there is a time to cut your losses. Yes, letting go of beloved teachers & staff hurts, but the love of a church school shouldn't get in the way of the survival of the church itself. 

Hopefully, you'll find a new church where your entire family feels comfortable.

[Sam_2.0]

the love of a church school shouldn't get in the way of the survival of the church itself.

Bingo. The school started in the 70's. Founding members of the church sent their children & grandchildren there. Shoot, I went there! The school had over 1,000 kids and 2 campuses when I attended. Today they are down to 120 students and not even making enough from tuition to pay the teachers. The church has been bailing them out at the expense of itself, and now both are about to go down. It could still be saved if they make drastic changes, but apparently no one is willing to do that much work. They would rather just sit & let it die.

And now that the recent SCOTUS decision came down, the school is hesitant to separate from the church. Apparently if they are still under the church then they can still refuse to hire LGBT individuals on that basis alone, whereas if they separated they could not discriminate. DH actually yelled at the board in the meeting about that and told them to get the hell over it and figure out a way to make it work. lol!

[Artemis Windsong]

One lady on our church counsel was doing the treasurer end of things.  She worked in banking and was appalled.  She resigned because the controls were too loose and told the church counsel.  She still attends but is not as active that I can see.

I also stepped back from helping out at church when they believed some malicious rumors a nonmember brought in from the street.  My Bible Study teacher sorted that out for me.  She got the church to investigate and uncovered some profane stuff about my former bully boss, who also attends there.  She's told them not to ask for anything additional from me.  I am thankful for her help.

As an indicator, a lot of the middle aged couples have left this church.

[Artemis Windsong]

A church is a business and needs to be ran like one.

[Sam_2.0]

I agree, Artemis. Our place is supposed to have 1 group to take care of the ministry, 1 to take care of the business, and each has representatives on the overall board. In theory that should work well, in practice those on the ministry side seem to have more weight to their votes.

I am really interested to see what happens in the congregational budget meeting in a couple of weeks. There will be a lot of unhappy people and we may see even more pack up & leave. By avoiding painful choices they've landed themselves in a mess and I am not sure they can recover from it.

[Sam_2.0]

Just to update, DH met with the elders at old church last night to officially submit his resignation & to discuss some of the issues he was concerned about. Once he left, apparently they voted to FINALLY make some big changes! His dad called him later to tell him about it.

And I found a good church close by, the kids love it & I feel that they are safe & learning, I am enjoying the services, and they are very focused on the community where we live & making lives better for those around us. Lots of focus on kids, helping single moms, working with programs that help get people back on their feet, etc. Not sure we will be here forever but I feel good about it now. I look forward to going on Sunday and don't dread it. Maybe soon we will be brave enough to launch into one of the small groups and really get to know some people there.