Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 9:27:39 GMT -5
Agreed. Except for the part about "without meaning to". I don't understand. Do you think there is a behind the scenes conspiracy between the more socially liberal posters on this board to gang up and flood someone with posts if they dare to question their opinion? "Without meaning to" means that a particular discussion might have more people leaning one way than the other, and it might appear to the people in the minority that they are being 'picked on' when in fact, it's just that there are more people present expressing an alternative view. Nothing organized or intentional at all. I understand that it can feel overwhelming when you are one of the few people with an opposing viewpoint. Happened to me on the political board all.the.time. Specifically on the threads about global climate change or gun control, where I often felt like a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I don't think I was being ganged up on, I think there were just a lot more people who have opinions that are opposite to my own. It didn't bother me, and I'm not sure why it bothers you? Are you upset that people disagree with you? Yes. I think it's a concerted effort on the part of some individuals to run the opposing opinions out of the threads. I'd give examples - and there are only a few - but that wouldn't be conducive to civil discussion. And no. I don't get upset that someone disagrees with me. I've learned much here by those who disagree with me. I've changed my mind on some things by reading others and why they disagreed. Any thinking individual can learn from others. We age, we grow and we learn. Sometimes what we felt when we were 20 ends up not being how we feel 20 years later. At least that's been true for me.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 17, 2015 9:32:58 GMT -5
I don't understand. Do you think there is a behind the scenes conspiracy between the more socially liberal posters on this board to gang up and flood someone with posts if they dare to question their opinion? "Without meaning to" means that a particular discussion might have more people leaning one way than the other, and it might appear to the people in the minority that they are being 'picked on' when in fact, it's just that there are more people present expressing an alternative view. Nothing organized or intentional at all. I understand that it can feel overwhelming when you are one of the few people with an opposing viewpoint. Happened to me on the political board all.the.time. Specifically on the threads about global climate change or gun control, where I often felt like a lone voice crying in the wilderness. I don't think I was being ganged up on, I think there were just a lot more people who have opinions that are opposite to my own. It didn't bother me, and I'm not sure why it bothers you? Are you upset that people disagree with you? Yes. I think it's a concerted effort on the part of some individuals to run the opposing opinions out of the threads. I'd give examples - and there are only a few - but that wouldn't be conducive to civil discussion. And no. I don't get upset that someone disagrees with me. I've learned much here by those who disagree with me. I've changed my mind on some things by reading others and why they disagreed. Any thinking individual can learn from others. We age, we grow and we learn. Sometimes what we felt when we were 20 ends up not being how we feel 20 years later. At least that's been true for me. It's been true for me, as well, GEL. Even an old dog can learn a new trick, or two. As to those few who actually put out an effort to drown out any disagreement with their pronouncements of The Truth, they can easily be ignored. Those few cannot win against a determined group that wishes civil discussion. There aren't enough of them. They'll only succeed if they're allowed to succeed. If they're systematically ignored, they will fail.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 9:42:32 GMT -5
Agreed, mmhmm. My mind has learned to tune out the ridiculous, "You didn't vote for Obama? You are racist." kinds of things most of the time. But it's a mood, yanno? On those sucky days, I admit to getting upset when I'm accused of things that just aren't true. I'm guessing most people are like that. Things hit them differently depending on how they are feeling that particular moment.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 17, 2015 9:48:24 GMT -5
Agreed, mmhmm. My mind has learned to tune out the ridiculous, "You didn't vote for Obama? You are racist." kinds of things most of the time. But it's a mood, yanno? On those sucky days, I admit to getting upset when I'm accused of things that just aren't true. I'm guessing most people are like that. Things hit them differently depending on how they are feeling that particular moment. That's probably true, GEL. I don't generally get bent out of shape about things said on a message board. I don't know folks here and they don't know me. Nothing said here can impact my life in any way. Therefore, it sorta rolls off my back, I guess. I do have a couple of "hot button" issues but I try to stay out of those as much as possible.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 17, 2015 9:57:40 GMT -5
I like arguing with people. Though for me the arguing is more a way to gain understanding of how the "other half" thinks. I rarely expect it to actually accomplish anything, and I wonder if that is where some of the frustration comes from. If you engage in a discussion fully expecting results, I think in most cases you are bound to be disappointed.
I find it fascinating that two groups can look at the same core data, and come to such radically different conclusions. Now I'm not saying that I don't get aggravated and annoyed, I am only human, but I do try to not to let that turn into just throwing insults. That being said, when people on the "other" side of the argument seem to be doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers and their ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you" it can get under my skin. If you honestly don't understand a point the other side is making fine, ask for clarity. But I have often seen cases where people are either being deliberately obtuse to piss the other side off, or are just dumb as a sack of rocks.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 17, 2015 10:10:55 GMT -5
I like arguing with people. Though for me the arguing is more a way to gain understanding of how the "other half" thinks. I rarely expect it to actually accomplish anything, and I wonder if that is where some of the frustration comes from. If you engage in a discussion fully expecting results, I think in most cases you are bound to be disappointed. I find it fascinating that two groups can look at the same core data, and come to such radically different conclusions. Now I'm not saying that I don't get aggravated and annoyed, I am only human, but I do try to not to let that turn into just throwing insults. That being said, when people on the "other" side of the argument seem to be doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers and their ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you" it can get under my skin. If you honestly don't understand a point the other side is making fine, ask for clarity. But I have often seen cases where people are either being deliberately obtuse to piss the other side off, or are just dumb as a sack of rocks. What makes those people appear deliberately obtuse, or just plain dumb? Are they seen to be that way because they won't accept your argument and change their stance? If that's the case, maybe they're not sticking their fingers in their ears but are actually reading what you have to say and just not agreeing with you. They may see things completely differently than you see them. They aren't you. They're coming from a different place. To me, that's okay. I'm fine with those who see things differently.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 17, 2015 10:12:10 GMT -5
I learned a really big lesson many years ago. Some dude was blathering away on television. I was trying to get my darned ironing done, so was listening with half a mind. The dude said: "Nobody can make you feel anything. You can choose what you feel. The responsibility lies with you." That has stuck in my mind for 50 years +. It really had an impact on me and has helped me a great deal over the years. I studied psychology in school, so I find it really unfair when some people insist that we respect the feelings of some people without question, while telling other people their feelings are wrong. I don't remember everything I studied, but it seems like instead of telling people their feelings are wrong, we would try to examine them a little more and determine the origin of the feelings. That seems to be the best way to transform feelings, IMO. YMMV of course... I've read and read and read the two controversial threads but commented very little. Others say much more concisely what I would say, so I let them say it. But I had to comment here I try hard to not tell my kids their feelings are wrong, but perhaps their actions caused by their feelings need correction. It's ok to be mad, it's not ok to hit someone kind of things. I've thought a lot about how I feel about people treating the "odd" amongst us, and basically it boils down to, be as uncomfortable or however you feel as you want about something you thing is abnormal but don't be cruel to the people you find abnormal. Which when you come right down to it is the whole Golden Rule thing, treat them as kindly as you'd like to be treated by someone who finds you strange and weird and whatever. I think I had a point when I started, but I feel like I rambled, which is why I let other people make the big points. I'm good at having great thoughts, but not so good at making them line up and make sense.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 17, 2015 10:14:18 GMT -5
LOL! I think I just figured out what PC really means! It means polite conversation!
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 17, 2015 10:15:24 GMT -5
I studied psychology in school, so I find it really unfair when some people insist that we respect the feelings of some people without question, while telling other people their feelings are wrong. I don't remember everything I studied, but it seems like instead of telling people their feelings are wrong, we would try to examine them a little more and determine the origin of the feelings. That seems to be the best way to transform feelings, IMO. YMMV of course... I've read and read and read the two controversial threads but commented very little. Others say much more concisely what I would say, so I let them say it. But I had to comment here I try hard to not tell my kids their feelings are wrong, but perhaps their actions caused by their feelings need correction. It's ok to be mad, it's not ok to hit someone kind of things. I've thought a lot about how I feel about people treating the "odd" amongst us, and basically it boils down to, be as uncomfortable or however you feel as you want about something you thing is abnormal but don't be cruel to the people you find abnormal. Which when you come right down to it is the whole Golden Rule thing, treat them as kindly as you'd like to be treated by someone who finds you strange and weird and whatever. I think I had a point when I started, but I feel like I rambled, which is why I let other people make the big points. I'm good at having great thoughts, but not so good at making them line up and make sense. I once hugged a gay guy because I know I would love a gay guy to hug me.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 10:18:21 GMT -5
I studied psychology in school, so I find it really unfair when some people insist that we respect the feelings of some people without question, while telling other people their feelings are wrong. I don't remember everything I studied, but it seems like instead of telling people their feelings are wrong, we would try to examine them a little more and determine the origin of the feelings. That seems to be the best way to transform feelings, IMO. YMMV of course... I've read and read and read the two controversial threads but commented very little. Others say much more concisely what I would say, so I let them say it. But I had to comment here I try hard to not tell my kids their feelings are wrong, but perhaps their actions caused by their feelings need correction. It's ok to be mad, it's not ok to hit someone kind of things. I've thought a lot about how I feel about people treating the "odd" amongst us, and basically it boils down to, be as uncomfortable or however you feel as you want about something you thing is abnormal but don't be cruel to the people you find abnormal. Which when you come right down to it is the whole Golden Rule thing, treat them as kindly as you'd like to be treated by someone who finds you strange and weird and whatever. I think I had a point when I started, but I feel like I rambled, which is why I let other people make the big points. I'm good at having great thoughts, but not so good at making them line up and make sense. I think you said it very well. "Be uncomfortable but don't be cruel." I think that's awesome.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 17, 2015 10:18:46 GMT -5
I've read and read and read the two controversial threads but commented very little. Others say much more concisely what I would say, so I let them say it. But I had to comment here I try hard to not tell my kids their feelings are wrong, but perhaps their actions caused by their feelings need correction. It's ok to be mad, it's not ok to hit someone kind of things. I've thought a lot about how I feel about people treating the "odd" amongst us, and basically it boils down to, be as uncomfortable or however you feel as you want about something you thing is abnormal but don't be cruel to the people you find abnormal. Which when you come right down to it is the whole Golden Rule thing, treat them as kindly as you'd like to be treated by someone who finds you strange and weird and whatever. I think I had a point when I started, but I feel like I rambled, which is why I let other people make the big points. I'm good at having great thoughts, but not so good at making them line up and make sense. I once hugged a gay guy because I know I would love a gay guy to hug me. And did you enjoy it?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 17, 2015 10:19:32 GMT -5
I once hugged a gay guy because I know I would love a gay guy to hug me. And did you enjoy it? I did. He was a lovely hugger.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 17, 2015 10:21:49 GMT -5
I've read and read and read the two controversial threads but commented very little. Others say much more concisely what I would say, so I let them say it. But I had to comment here I try hard to not tell my kids their feelings are wrong, but perhaps their actions caused by their feelings need correction. It's ok to be mad, it's not ok to hit someone kind of things. I've thought a lot about how I feel about people treating the "odd" amongst us, and basically it boils down to, be as uncomfortable or however you feel as you want about something you thing is abnormal but don't be cruel to the people you find abnormal. Which when you come right down to it is the whole Golden Rule thing, treat them as kindly as you'd like to be treated by someone who finds you strange and weird and whatever. I think I had a point when I started, but I feel like I rambled, which is why I let other people make the big points. I'm good at having great thoughts, but not so good at making them line up and make sense. I think you said it very well. "Be uncomfortable but don't be cruel." I think that's awesome. I actually said that to my niece the other day, and I might not have been able to be that concise in the conversation with her if I hadn't followed these.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 10:21:56 GMT -5
I know a lovely tree hugger.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 17, 2015 10:22:21 GMT -5
I did. He was a lovely hugger. Are you going back for another hug soon?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 17, 2015 10:23:22 GMT -5
I did. He was a lovely hugger. Are you going back for another hug soon? Next time I see him. I am also planning to go away with him for a week this summer. Should be divine.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 17, 2015 10:37:58 GMT -5
Are you going back for another hug soon? Next time I see him. I am also planning to go away with him for a week this summer. Should be divine.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jun 17, 2015 10:38:22 GMT -5
I like arguing with people. Though for me the arguing is more a way to gain understanding of how the "other half" thinks. I rarely expect it to actually accomplish anything, and I wonder if that is where some of the frustration comes from. If you engage in a discussion fully expecting results, I think in most cases you are bound to be disappointed. I find it fascinating that two groups can look at the same core data, and come to such radically different conclusions. Now I'm not saying that I don't get aggravated and annoyed, I am only human, but I do try to not to let that turn into just throwing insults. That being said, when people on the "other" side of the argument seem to be doing the equivalent of sticking their fingers and their ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you" it can get under my skin. If you honestly don't understand a point the other side is making fine, ask for clarity. But I have often seen cases where people are either being deliberately obtuse to piss the other side off, or are just dumb as a sack of rocks. What makes those people appear deliberately obtuse, or just plain dumb? Are they seen to be that way because they won't accept your argument and change their stance? If that's the case, maybe they're not sticking their fingers in their ears but are actually reading what you have to say and just not agreeing with you. They may see things completely differently than you see them. They aren't you. They're coming from a different place. To me, that's okay. I'm fine with those who see things differently. It actually has very little to do with which view point I hold - I have seen it from both sides. Though you are right, it could be that just just simply don't get it. I think I most often see it when I believe that a poster is being a little sarcastic, or deliberately using hyperbole, and others decide to take it as literal fact -and then spin out from there. Then when the original poster tries to clarify, it becomes an instance that "well that's not what you said". I suppose it could be a simple misunderstanding, but in a lot of cases, it seems to me a more deliberate unwillingness to understand the intent because it better suits their purpose.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 17, 2015 10:38:53 GMT -5
Next time I see him. I am also planning to go away with him for a week this summer. Should be divine. Pinot Noir!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 17, 2015 10:41:59 GMT -5
What makes those people appear deliberately obtuse, or just plain dumb? Are they seen to be that way because they won't accept your argument and change their stance? If that's the case, maybe they're not sticking their fingers in their ears but are actually reading what you have to say and just not agreeing with you. They may see things completely differently than you see them. They aren't you. They're coming from a different place. To me, that's okay. I'm fine with those who see things differently. It actually has very little to do with which view point I hold - I have seen it from both sides. Though you are right, it could be that just just simply don't get it. I think I most often see it when I believe that a poster is being a little sarcastic, or deliberately using hyperbole, and others decide to take it as literal fact -and then spin out from there. Then when the original poster tries to clarify, it becomes an instance that "well that's not what you said". I suppose it could be a simple misunderstanding, but in a lot of cases, it seems to me a more deliberate unwillingness to understand the intent because it better suits their purpose. I think I get where you're coming from, and I've seen the same. Most of the time, I really think it's just misunderstandings. As to not "getting it", that can be a misunderstanding or it can be a real difference of opinion. It doesn't necessarily mean that one, or the other person doesn't "get it". They may just not agree. What looks like cold, hard fact to one may translate very differently to another. I have also seen what seems to be purposeful obtuseness. It's not common but I think it does happen.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 10:44:36 GMT -5
I have started to stay away from a lot of the more controversial threads because I am admittedly disturbed by what some people think. After not sleeping half the night following the Zimmerman/Martin thread I decided maybe some threads affect me a little too much. I wasn't disturbed by the fact that the jury didn't have enough evidence to convict Zimmerman (the jury should have had another option other than 2nd degree murder) but I was highly disturbed by the fact that some people thought it was completely okay for an armed person to track someone even after the police told that armed person to stay put. I know those people have a right to think that and to express that opinion but it obviously upset me enough to keep me awake at night. I tried to stay away from the Duggar thread (though I did a lurk a little and like a few posts) because I find that family and that situation extremely upsetting. I knew there would be posts that would alarm me so for the most part I stayed away. People are going to believe what they are going to believe and for the most part you aren't going to change their minds so you can go round and round for 40+ pages about something but in the end most people are still going to believe what they believed on page one. I just don't have the time and the energy for it but I am glad there are those that do. We need people like that. I know what you mean. I couldn't participate further in the Dugger thread because it hurt my heart that these young ladies were being drug into the spotlight without their consent. If they choose to come forward - more power to them - but they didn't. I couldn't participate in a thread exploiting them further. But that's how *I* saw it - not necessarily how others saw it. They won't read that thread. No real harm was done except in principle. There's nothing wrong with being disturbed by things on a message board that are actually occurring to people in real life. I've seen it asked many times "How can you get upset by something posted on a message board?" Like it's some kind of weakness or something. I think it's the opposite actually. It's a strengh that you care enough about others to be affected.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 10:46:17 GMT -5
What makes those people appear deliberately obtuse, or just plain dumb? Are they seen to be that way because they won't accept your argument and change their stance? If that's the case, maybe they're not sticking their fingers in their ears but are actually reading what you have to say and just not agreeing with you. They may see things completely differently than you see them. They aren't you. They're coming from a different place. To me, that's okay. I'm fine with those who see things differently. It actually has very little to do with which view point I hold - I have seen it from both sides. Though you are right, it could be that just just simply don't get it. I think I most often see it when I believe that a poster is being a little sarcastic, or deliberately using hyperbole, and others decide to take it as literal fact -and then spin out from there. Then when the original poster tries to clarify, it becomes an instance that "well that's not what you said". I suppose it could be a simple misunderstanding, but in a lot of cases, it seems to me a more deliberate unwillingness to understand the intent because it better suits their purpose. Agreed. I've seen some occasions where someone will take a tiny bit of post and put it out there, completely out of context, because they can twist it to fit their purpose. It's maddening...except when I do it.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jun 17, 2015 10:57:18 GMT -5
After having glanced through at least the majority of these threads, there are a couple points I want to make.
1. This has already been stated, I believe, but the problem causing threads to get shut down isn't that people have a difference of opinions. It's that, given the emotional content of certain topics, people can't keep their opinions civil.
There will nearly always be a majority of people who feel one way, against the "other side", but that doesn't mean it has to become nasty. If people would simply stop for a minute and review what they're posting, it would go a long way. You can make your point just as easily without calling someone a name, or insinuating (if not outright stating) they're a whackadoodle nut job or whatever. There isn't a lot in this world that's truly black and white, so open your mind before you open your mouth. I get that your opinion may not be changed, but at last attempt to listen and understand why someone might have that alternate point of view.
2. There's no such thing as a "superior opinion". I mean, really. Get over yourself if you think you have one.
3. There's no "winning side" in a discussion forum either. There's a majority, yes, but that doesn't make you a winner. It's not a contest. It's a message board. You want to win, go run a race or something.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 17, 2015 11:18:38 GMT -5
Yep. Inflammatory language never gets anywhere towards solving an issue and goes a long way towards keeping it an issue.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 17, 2015 11:53:50 GMT -5
Virgil Showlion, how can I put this nicely.... I think we can better identify and work to resolve our communication issues on here if you would kindly observe from the sidelines. I know I can't make you but just consider it a friendly request from one adult to another. I promised admin back in April that I'd stay out of Politics and CE for all but a handful of topics (specifically, those pertaining to finance and elections). I've honoured that promise and will continue to honour it. Politics and CE now qualify as graveyards anyway, except for the occasional flourish when Paul shows up. I don't apologize for participating in the Jenner thread, which was in YMOT. I'm not sure why you're upset about it. Our paths barely crossed in that thread. I don't recall addressing your comments in any way besides 'liking' a few of them. If you don't like my opinions on social issues, join the club. What I desperately wish is that the few remaining conservative posters that 'like' my posts, publicly defend me, and send me supportive PMs and e-mails would own their beliefs and boldly express them so that the few debates I do participate in aren't Virgil vs. the World. I realize there are harsh consequences for unequivocally expressing socially conservative views, and that's not going to change, but even having one or two brothers (or sisters) -at-arms willing to share the load makes a world of difference. Virgil, I might be inclined to agree with some of your ideas, but I honestly don't have the time time to go through page after page of debate. Note I can't speak specifically to the thread in question because I haven't read most of it. As I said, I don't have the time. In addition, I try not to engage threads like that too much. Just state my opinion and bow out. I learned long ago you're not likely to change someone's mind on abortion or gay marriage, so I don't try.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 17, 2015 12:23:11 GMT -5
i think it takes a lot of pretentiousness to label yourself the moral arbiter of an issue and start lecturing others about it.
Not saying we do that on these boards, but I'm weary of anyone who identified themselves as "an activist" is engaging in said pretentiousness.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 17, 2015 12:47:10 GMT -5
It is unfair to be berated for your opinions when you're doing nothing to stifle anyone's rights. But I also understand that for those whose rights have been stifled, or are under attack (by lawmakers, etc.), it can be hard not to paint someone who shares the same opinion as the "stifling" group (even if this person doesn't agree with the aims of this group, just the philosophy) with the same brush. I am sure it is exhausting to sift through all the opinions and figure out which people want to strip you of certain rights versus those who just "don't agree" with an aspect of your lifestyle or personality. I really think this is a key point. Somethings are just personal decisions that each person must make for themselves. Abortion, getting married, etc. If you don't believe abortion is morally ok, don't have one. If you think gay marriage is not moral, don't marry someone the same gender as yourself. Feel free not too . Don't agree with gender changes - great, don't change your gender. Just let everyone else make their own decisions about their own bodies, and their own lives. Once we get here - what is there to really discuss? 1. Snow Leopards 2. What I've done today 3. the non-political chit chat thread Kill me now.
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ArchietheDragon
Junior Associate
Joined: Jul 7, 2014 14:29:23 GMT -5
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 17, 2015 12:48:39 GMT -5
I really think this is a key point. Somethings are just personal decisions that each person must make for themselves. Abortion, getting married, etc. If you don't believe abortion is morally ok, don't have one. If you think gay marriage is not moral, don't marry someone the same gender as yourself. Feel free not too . Don't agree with gender changes - great, don't change your gender. Just let everyone else make their own decisions about their own bodies, and their own lives. Once we get here - what is there to really discuss? 1. Snow Leopards 2. What I've done today 3. the non-political chit chat thread Kill me now. Euthanasia is illegal.
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Value Buy
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 17:57:07 GMT -5
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Today's Mood: Getting better by the day!
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 17, 2015 12:54:37 GMT -5
1. Snow Leopards 2. What I've done today 3. the non-political chit chat thread Kill me now. Euthanasia is illegal. Damn! but pot is legal in how many states? How about if I move to Oregon? I imagine there are a few posters here who would pull the plug on me for free. Even a couple who proclaim to be nurses.
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Wisconsin Beth
Distinguished Associate
No, we don't walk away. But when we're holding on to something precious, we run.
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:59:36 GMT -5
Posts: 30,626
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 17, 2015 13:26:49 GMT -5
I think pot is legal in 2 states and the District of Columbia. And a state Supreme Court (CO?) ruled this week that an employer CAN fire you for smoking pot because federal laws trump state laws.
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