Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 16, 2015 15:27:02 GMT -5
How much does a hotel cost outside the gates of Disneyland in California? This is out of the question at WDW in Florida. Disney has their own freeway going into the complex with nothing for miles before reaching the parks. Nice touch on Walt's part. He wanted very penny he could get from the attendees, without letting anyone putting up just anything outside the entrance that would be a detriment, to WDW. When DH and I went to WDW 2001, we were told that WDW was 52 SQUARE MILES of land. I insisted we stay on the grounds for our trip in April - I'd heard horror stories about the lines to get into the grounds and then into the parking lots. I wasn't dealing with lines to get into a stupid parking lot. Been there, done that and have no interest in repeating it. As it was, we stayed in Animal Kingdom Lodge and took the buses to the 3 parks we were visiting.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jun 16, 2015 15:29:08 GMT -5
giramomma - I think some of the problem is that we still have this belief that you can make $40k/year as a family and be middle class. Maybe that's true in some parts of the country, but I bet just about anyone here would say that $40k/yr for a family of 3 or more is NOT middle class.
I don't think $50k/year, for a family of 4, or even 3, is middle class, either. That's working poor. As you said, it would qualify your family for government assistance. If you qualify for government assistance, you are not middle class. And that's where those charts mess things up. Again, a single person making $40k/yr - middle class. A family of 3 making $40k/yr - working poor.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 16, 2015 16:39:36 GMT -5
From the article: Disney is in a weird spot with income inequality because they essentially sells dreams/fantasy. It feels unfair on some level to only have access to that if you are in the top 10% of incomes in the country. So it looks like there is plenty of opportunity for someone to offer a "dream" experience at lower price point. Everybody wins!
Disney is a business. They've made a business decision. Fair isn't really part of the equation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 16:45:12 GMT -5
The middle class is being priced out of all kinds of things what with most of the wealth increase of the last several years going to the wealthiest. Be happy the middle class hasn't been priced out of food yet.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 16, 2015 16:49:43 GMT -5
The middle class is being priced out of all kinds of things what with most of the wealth increase of the last several years going to the wealthiest. Be happy the middle class hasn't been priced out of food yet. Yep. Look at ground beef prices. And now, eggs.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 16, 2015 17:21:11 GMT -5
I'm not surprised you wouldn't like it. It would probably make you miserable to be in a place called the happiest place on earth. I'm Not the person to whom you replied, but count me among those who don't need to be told when they're happy and find it downright irritating to be told at every opportunity that I'm in "the happiest place on earth". High prices, long lines, tired, sunburnt kids... No, I'd be much happier in a kayak, thank you! Can't you like both? It doesn't need to be either or.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 16, 2015 17:45:26 GMT -5
You can go kayaking at Disney
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 18:26:25 GMT -5
The middle class is being priced out of all kinds of things what with most of the wealth increase of the last several years going to the wealthiest. Be happy the middle class hasn't been priced out of food yet. To be fair, I think the middle class priced themselves out of a lot of things because they decided that they should have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations/tech toys all at once on an average salary.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 18:34:11 GMT -5
The middle class is being priced out of all kinds of things what with most of the wealth increase of the last several years going to the wealthiest. Be happy the middle class hasn't been priced out of food yet. To be fair, I think the middle class priced themselves out of a lot of things because they decided that they should have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations/tech toys all at once on an average salary. didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 16, 2015 18:36:18 GMT -5
To be fair, I think the middle class priced themselves out of a lot of things because they decided that they should have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations/tech toys all at once on an average salary. didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? I don't think they had them all the way they seem to now. Also isn't the dollar worth less now?
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Jun 16, 2015 19:18:20 GMT -5
To be fair, I think the middle class priced themselves out of a lot of things because they decided that they should have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations/tech toys all at once on an average salary. didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? I'm going to go with a definite no. Usually one TV in the living room. Now a TV in every bedroom and sometimes in the bathroom! Now every kid has to have their own bedroom in a nicely finished house. There were no cell phone bills, no Internet.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 19:25:37 GMT -5
didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? I'm going to go with a definite no. Usually one TV in the living room. Now a TV in every bedroom and sometimes in the bathroom! Now every kid has to have their own bedroom in a nicely finished house. There were no cell phone bills, no Internet. My guess is that people in the 60's through 80's spent more as a percentage of income on tv's then we do now.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jun 16, 2015 22:50:54 GMT -5
Like I said earlier, we just took the kids on a week long trip to Disneyland. Prior to that, C and I spent around 3 or 4 days at DisneyWorld for our honeymoon, and I spent 2 days at EuroDisney back in the 90s, and one after noon in the late 80s at Disneyland. I was 13 before I ever went to a Disney park and didn't go again until I was 18 and in Paris over Bastille Day weekend. I went to EuroDisney to AVOID the long lines the other kids in our group were experiencing at the Bastille and the Louvre. (Due to a mugging the first night we were there, they wouldn't let any of us go out to Versaille.)
Here's the thing about the original question - is the middle class being priced out of Disney? My answer is still "no". Maybe as a member of the middle class you don't get the Disney Resort suite and 7 day park hopper passes and have a character breakfast every morning, but that doesn't mean you can't go. And yes, the further away you live, the more expensive it is. The cost of plane tickets is not the fault of Disney, so you really can't take that into account when figuring the costs. You stay in a non-Disney hotel that is walking distance from the park, or take public transit, or pay for the special shuttles (still cheaper than staying in a Disney property). You bring in your own food (you're allowed to do that), or walk out of the park to eat at a nearby restaurant. The IHOP right across from Disneyland has a "kids eat free" every night. Our family of 4 ate there for $25+ tip. (I don't really like IHOP, but the kids love pancakes.) You don't get a park hopper pass. You decide today we're going to Disneyland. Tomorrow we're going to California Adventure. You don't need to do both parks in the same day.
And no one says anyone has to like Disney. C grew up on Disney. The girls wanted to go. And I wanted to actually see Disneyland. We had friends who were going at the same time (for the Star Wars convention), so we met up with them, and would have had a great time if my daughter hadn't decided to have an attitude. (And she still had a great time during the times she wasn't with our foster daughter.)
I saved a considerable amount of money for the trip, specifically so we could do a character breakfast and buy the girls princess dresses. But I'm pretty certain we're middle class, so I am also pretty certain that the middle class aren't being priced out. (I actually think one of the problems is that many people want to think of the top end of the working poor as middle class, and yes, that creates an issue.)
But don't pretend that other destinations are cheaper, if you have to fly there, stay in a hotel, and get food at restaurants. DC was incredibly expensive, there were crowds everywhere, and while seeing the Lincoln Memorial means a lot to me, guess what, it's less fun than a roller coaster - for kids AND me. That doesn't mean I won't ever take Pop Tart to DC, or down to Colonial Williamsburg, because I will. And it will be ridiculously expensive to fly there and to stay in hotels and to buy all of our meals at restaurants and there will be crowds and lines....
And if I don't want crowds and lines, I'd love to take her to some of the off the beaten path places we saw in England, but there's still the flight, the hotel, the food, and then add the exchange rate.
Vacations that aren't driving two hours for a weekend trip in the woods (which I'm totally not knocking) are expensive. And even those can be expensive if you decide you need an RV or camper, or have to buy all the equipment you've never used before and after sleeping on the ground decide you'll never use again.
So go to Disney if that's your thing. Don't go to Disney if it's not your thing. If it's not worth it to you, then it's not worth it to you. But don't pretend that vacations in general aren't expensive, or that Disney (or even theme parks) are the only places you'll run into crowds. (Most camping grounds in WA state are already booked solid for the summer.) How much does a hotel cost outside the gates of Disneyland in California? This is out of the question at WDW in Florida. Disney has their own freeway going into the complex with nothing for miles before reaching the parks. Nice touch on Walt's part. He wanted very penny he could get from the attendees, without letting anyone putting up just anything outside the entrance that would be a detriment, to WDW. That's not exactly true about no hotels that aren't Disney owned in Disney World. I took my DD to Disney World last month and stayed at a hotel in the Disney World Resort area but not a Disney owned property. It was still a nice hotel, did have a shuttle to the parks and was still reasonably priced. You just gotta find the deals. FWIW, I did save a little but due to deal through my job but it still would be reasonable if I didn't get the discount. In case someone wonders, I don't work for Disney and live 3 hours south of there.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2015 22:59:53 GMT -5
To be fair, I think the middle class priced themselves out of a lot of things because they decided that they should have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations/tech toys all at once on an average salary. didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? Around here the middle class houses are way bigger now than they were 30 years ago, and I don't remember too many tech toys growing up in the 70's. I had a Little Professor I suppose that counts. We had cable, but just one 20" TV. I remember my Mom buying a new car in 79. It was $5500. The house in 71 was 18K and less than 1000 sf.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 9:05:36 GMT -5
Didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? I was born in 1953 so this is more like 2 generations ago, but: One TV. Five kids, 4 bedrooms. Only my brother had his own. Vacations consisted of driving somewhere and renting a house or cabin, which meant it wasn't much of a vacation for Mom since she still made a lot of the meals. Mom, my sister and I made most of our own clothes. None of us ever got a car when we got a driver's license; every one of us bought our own after getting out of college. (We were permitted reasonable use of the 2 family cars.) And of course the electronic toys we all have now didn't exist. Another thing I'd say about family vacations is that so much of them now include big-ticket activities. The local aquarium. The giant "Eye on (City)" ferris wheel. Water parks. Parasailing. Renting jetskis. The locals have learned that they can pull more money out of your pocket with all these activities. Cruise ship ports take it to an extreme level. My fondest vacation memories include playing board games with my cousins and eating popcorn in a cabin with one bathroom, and going out at night with a high-powered light looking for deer. We didn't shoot them; we just counted them. Once on a rainy day in the Outer Banks, my parents found a bookstore that was going out of business. We spent a happy afternoon there and came home with a lot of books. I've done some carefully-chosen high-price things; my favorite was kayaking around the city walls of Dubrovnik- but sometimes the best vacation activities don't have admission prices.
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Jun 17, 2015 9:35:59 GMT -5
Didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? I was born in 1953 so this is more like 2 generations ago, but: One TV. Five kids, 4 bedrooms. Only my brother had his own. Vacations consisted of driving somewhere and renting a house or cabin, which meant it wasn't much of a vacation for Mom since she still made a lot of the meals. Mom, my sister and I made most of our own clothes. None of us ever got a car when we got a driver's license; every one of us bought our own after getting out of college. (We were permitted reasonable use of the 2 family cars.) And of course the electronic toys we all have now didn't exist. Another thing I'd say about family vacations is that so much of them now include big-ticket activities. The local aquarium. The giant "Eye on (City)" ferris wheel. Water parks. Parasailing. Renting jetskis. The locals have learned that they can pull more money out of your pocket with all these activities. Cruise ship ports take it to an extreme level. My fondest vacation memories include playing board games with my cousins and eating popcorn in a cabin with one bathroom, and going out at night with a high-powered light looking for deer. We didn't shoot them; we just counted them. Once on a rainy day in the Outer Banks, my parents found a bookstore that was going out of business. We spent a happy afternoon there and came home with a lot of books. I've done some carefully-chosen high-price things; my favorite was kayaking around the city walls of Dubrovnik- but sometimes the best vacation activities don't have admission prices. Good, because if you did shoot them, you would be poaching.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 17, 2015 10:24:32 GMT -5
A generation ago, starter homes were 2 bedrooms and one bath. Depending on where you lived, laundry could either be in a carport or a basement or the laundromat. One car, families got a second one if a family member died and left it to them. Vacations were camping,ick, or something equally cheap and nasty. One TV period. 3-4 channels that went off at night. Playing the national anthem!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jun 17, 2015 12:08:26 GMT -5
A generation ago, starter homes were 2 bedrooms and one bath. Depending on where you lived, laundry could either be in a carport or a basement or the laundromat. One car, families got a second one if a family member died and left it to them. Vacations were camping,ick, or something equally cheap and nasty. One TV period. 3-4 channels that went off at night. Playing the national anthem! Not necessarily.
I was born in 1970. My parents purchased an 11 room Victorian house in 1964 with an additional apartment for income. That's where I grew up. Laundry was in the kitchen. We always had 2 vehicles, one car and one pickup truck. We went on vacation. We never flew, but always went somewhere for a week in the summer. We went out for dinner one night a week.
We were solidly middle class (dad was a firefighter and mom was a beautician).
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 17, 2015 12:08:31 GMT -5
Didn't the middle class have nice houses/cars/TVs/vacations,toys on an average salary a generation ago? I was born in 1953 so this is more like 2 generations ago, but: One TV. Five kids, 4 bedrooms. Only my brother had his own. Vacations consisted of driving somewhere and renting a house or cabin, which meant it wasn't much of a vacation for Mom since she still made a lot of the meals. Mom, my sister and I made most of our own clothes. None of us ever got a car when we got a driver's license; every one of us bought our own after getting out of college. (We were permitted reasonable use of the 2 family cars.) And of course the electronic toys we all have now didn't exist. Another thing I'd say about family vacations is that so much of them now include big-ticket activities. The local aquarium. The giant "Eye on (City)" ferris wheel. Water parks. Parasailing. Renting jetskis. The locals have learned that they can pull more money out of your pocket with all these activities. Cruise ship ports take it to an extreme level. My fondest vacation memories include playing board games with my cousins and eating popcorn in a cabin with one bathroom, and going out at night with a high-powered light looking for deer. We didn't shoot them; we just counted them. Once on a rainy day in the Outer Banks, my parents found a bookstore that was going out of business. We spent a happy afternoon there and came home with a lot of books. I've done some carefully-chosen high-price things; my favorite was kayaking around the city walls of Dubrovnik- but sometimes the best vacation activities don't have admission prices. You had a BATHROOM?? Our vacation cabins had outhouses full of spiders.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 17, 2015 12:10:07 GMT -5
The middle class isn't priced out of Disney but they are priced out of going to Disney every year. When I was a kid in a mostly blue collar neighborhood, families took one big vacation during their kids lives, ONE!, not one every year. They other years it was camping or day trips. Now middle class is what I considered rich growing up ... one big vacation every year, everyone has a smart phone and tablet and car and this and that.
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garion2003
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Post by garion2003 on Jun 17, 2015 13:10:41 GMT -5
Add me to the "never been to Disney until I was an adult" camp. My brother and I didn't know what we were missing, we never begged to go. We did do Disneyland on a trip to CA to see relatives (this was in the 70's).
As I remember we took a "family" vacation somewhere special every 5 years or so - we went to Nova Scotia once, one year we did PA (Philly, liberty bell, etc) and then another time we did Washington DC (I remember the White House tour and the FBI building. And it was so damn hot. And they had just started coming out with New Coke).
Other than that that we did a yearly week at a church camp less than 2 hours away. It was near the beach and we had campfires every night with other families.
The only times I've been on Disney property were for conferences, I think 3 in all. Each time I'd stay on property (discounted rate that the company covered) and buy an "after hours ticket" on my own dime. Magic Kingdom is fun, but I really liked Epcot the best. The Hollywood studios park was fun too, but if I had to choose between those 3 I'd first start at Epcot.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jun 17, 2015 13:20:22 GMT -5
The middle class isn't priced out of Disney but they are priced out of going to Disney every year. When I was a kid in a mostly blue collar neighborhood, families took one big vacation during their kids lives, ONE!, not one every year. They other years it was camping or day trips. Now middle class is what I considered rich growing up ... one big vacation every year, everyone has a smart phone and tablet and car and this and that. Growing up, my family went on a real trip every year. Disney World was only twice, but that a 2 week long trip including Cape Canaveral, Busch Gardens, Sea World, and all kinds of smaller attractions. I also remember going on longer road trips to Mammoth Cave, Wisconsin Dells, Toronto, Niagara Falls, & Sault Ste Marie. My parents didn't camp, so it was always motel stays. We were middle class.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jun 17, 2015 13:28:42 GMT -5
We went on some sort of vacation every year. Typically either the mountains or the beach for a week but BIG vacations like Disney World only happened every 4-5 yrs. We never flew anywhere. I didn't take my first plane ride until I was 22 and I went to the Bahamas after college graduation. We didn't camp. The very thought of my mother camping makes me LOL! We always stayed in a hotel or rented house/condo.
We were only about 10 hrs from Disney World so it was drivable. Had we lived across the country where Disney was not a one day drive away then I doubt we would have ever made it there, at least not until I reached high school age.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 13:52:10 GMT -5
Good, because if you did shoot them [the deer], you would be poaching. The womenfolk had to make meals for the extended family in a primitive kitchen so tiny a deer carcass wouldn't fit in it. No dishwasher, of course. If anyone brought showed up bearing freshly-killed game other than the occasional bass or perch, it might have been the end of one or more marriages.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Jun 17, 2015 14:30:38 GMT -5
We didn't camp either. We took 3 "big" vacations growing up (and two of those one of my parents couldn't go because of work so was stuck at home). Other years day trips to the beach, mountains or Boston (all within an hour or less).
I remember one girl in my class going to an all inclusive when we were freshman in high school. Her brother was a junior and she had a sister in 7th grade. That was their one big vacation for her whole kid life, they really enjoyed it.
This is in contrast to half of my son's pre-K class going to Aruba or equivalent for winter break. I'm guessing they're going on vacas over the summer too. I'd consider that rich, not middle class behavior.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 17, 2015 15:06:28 GMT -5
Before 1978, we drove 4 hours to stay with Dad's Dad (and his stepmom) for a week. I don't have a whole lot of memories of these trips. After 1978, we stopped to visit them for a couple of hours and then drove another 2+ hours to a relative's cabin on a lake and stayed there for a week. We had/have running water and flush toilets but no hot water. And a miserable electric stove. Mom still got stuck with cooking and cleaning so as someone pointed out, not much of a vacation for her. Plus she got to make sure we didn't drown in the lake!
But with the exception of doing 6 Flags in Gurney, IL. we never left the state for vacations.
My siblings and I have a lot of happy memories from stays at the cabin. My relatives still have it. It's still got cold running water, a flush toilet and a lousy electric stove. But there's a serious well issue going on and my relatives are kinda trying to limit guests due to that. And if anyone in my immediate family said they were going there this summer, I suspect they'd end up with an additional six to ten people coming along too.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jun 17, 2015 15:23:40 GMT -5
As a kid, I went to WDW as a 5-6 year old and again for a band trip when I was a teen. Other than WDW, I don't recall taking any vacations before my mom married XSD (I think we went to Rehoboth Beach once or twice with with XSD before they married). Once they got married, we took vacation a couple of years, but only to OCMD. They/we definitely lived above their means... had that nice house, decent cars, TVs in every room, nice clothes so not much money for anything else. Or they just were more about stuff and less about experiences (I'm definitely an "experience" person). We were middle class. My mom and dad together were working class and I believe WDW was the only vacation the three of us had, and I really don't remember him being there. He must have had to work.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 15:33:31 GMT -5
I went on a lot of vacations with my Grandparents growing up. I don't think I ever did anything with my Mom until I was an adult and she bought all the timeshares. I remember one trip to ValleyFair, that's it. But, with my Grandparents I went cross country several times, Hawaii once, a couple senior bus tours thrown in there for good measure. LOL
My older son has been to a lot of places, younger son not so much. We did do a whirlwind 7 states in 5 days tour a few years ago, and did some fun stuff on htat trip, but he won't remember it.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 17, 2015 20:28:29 GMT -5
First time I went to Disneyland was Thanksgiving day 1982 and DS2 was just 8 months old. Great day for a first visit since at that time everyone still thought they had to be home on TG and eat turkey -> absolutely no lines After that xH and I took the kids almost every year for a few days before we got on the plane to either visit family in europe or go home to SE Asia. Great funfor all of us and the kids would be so pooped that they would sleep for most of those 10+ hour flights. We did not stay in expensive hotels though, just regular across-the-road from DL places. Now I am waiting for DGS to be considered to be old enough to go by his parents. I don't know what they are waiting for: the kid is almost 1.5yo and he can walk. Really, what's the holdup? I am not getting any younger yanno As to the topic of this thread: I wouldn't know nor am I likely to find out. DS2 and his wife are definitely on the high side of what constitutes middle class in their HCOLA. I am more middle of the road in my VHCOLA and I am sure that I can easily swing this. Then again, at 63 yo I do not meet the target group for this question ETA: when I grew up in Europe we would go camping in Austria or the Black Forest region every year and I loved that. In the few years my kids lived in Europe we took them camping as well (Spain and Portugal). Now I prefer a real bed at night.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 22:15:17 GMT -5
Well, apparently everything is getting really expensive! This thread got me thinking how I want to do more with my kids so when daycare texted me that they were going to be closed tomorrow I went online to get tickets to ValleyFair instead of just sitting home with them catching up on my laundry pile from hell. So far we're at almost $200. $150 for 4 tickets with unlimited drinks $11 parking $30 for food for the cooler I'll be reimbursed about $40 for one of the tickets (taking one of DS's cousins so he has someone to go on all the thrill rides with. ). Credit card rewards will cover all the tickets and parking, so I try to think of it being almost free. Just food and gas (it's 120 miles away)
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