Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 11, 2011 12:00:07 GMT -5
Bean, bully for them! Some incompetent bureaucrat never should have agreed to those contracts. THAT is the real problem. Like I previously indicated, ask for a bunch of stuff you don't really want. The dumb politicians will probably give it to you.
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Post by privateinvestor on Mar 11, 2011 12:09:44 GMT -5
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Mar 11, 2011 12:11:52 GMT -5
And so taxpayers pay in perpetuity?
It has to stop they can not tax my house up to 100% of my income just becasue they took bribes from union members to give them a sweatheart deal.
If it dosn't end here it will probably end in Milwaukee County going bankrupt due to stupid pension agreements. Another one of those deals were lies and misrepresentations resulted in no one going to jail.
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Mar 11, 2011 12:19:11 GMT -5
Bean, bully for them! Some incompetent bureaucrat never should have agreed to those contracts. THAT is the real problem. Like I previously indicated, ask for a bunch of stuff you don't really want. The dumb politicians will probably give it to you. What makes you think it was incompetence? Remember public unions are a vicious circle, unions help elect politicians who help unions get more money
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 11, 2011 12:21:37 GMT -5
What makes you think it was incompetence? Remember public unions are a vicious circle, unions help elect politicians who help unions get more money
....and that point was made clear in the video posted the other day where an obese female health care worker threatened the legislator in a hearing. I.E.: "we put you there and we will remove you"....
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 11, 2011 12:41:07 GMT -5
Sometimes you gotta stick to your guns. If you didn't, you are incompetent. Walker is sticking to his guns and will be out of office in a year, because of it. The real interesting part comes when this contract is over and they go for the new one. Usually contracts state all provisions of the previous contract apply. This will take years to resolve.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 11, 2011 12:51:25 GMT -5
Just because some incompetent politician agreed to these unreasonable demands in years past doesn't mean they should be kept in place. In fact now that these unreasonable things have been identified they need to be fixed before more damage is done. Unfortunately trying to undo these contractual mistakes takes big boys willing to sacrifice their careers if necessary to get it done and will involve a lot of ill will as we are seeing in Wisconsin. Gov. Walker is on the right side of this argument I just don't like the procedure he used to get it done but maybe that is the only way it would actually get done. Time will tell and it will be interesting to see how many states follow suit and what will happen to the ones who don't.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 11, 2011 12:53:52 GMT -5
and what will happen to the ones who don't.
Well.....according to the Gov of New York, Andrew Cuomo's current tv commercials.... 1.4 million ny state residents have left the state.... 400,000 jobs have vanished, and something like a $9 billion budget gap.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 11, 2011 13:20:01 GMT -5
Or maybe... just maybe... Obama will have the DOJ throw these states out of the union. All new flags could have the stars put on with velcro so they could be removed if more states didn't follow orders. I seriously think you could see some states looking at secession as the way out of these problems which could create some real interesting dynamics and most likely another civil war eventually.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 13:25:51 GMT -5
Looking at secession? When the only thing that HAS been keeping them afloat is federal money? When in addition to other budgetary issues, they now have to provide for their own military defense? etc...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 13:52:33 GMT -5
Sometimes you gotta stick to your guns. If you didn't, you are incompetent. Walker is sticking to his guns and will be out of office in a year, because of it. The real interesting part comes when this contract is over and they go for the new one. Usually contracts state all provisions of the previous contract apply. This will take years to resolve. I think it's entirely possible Walker could be out of office in the next year or the next four. A lot of these contracts will still be good for 2 yrs so some of the benefits of the bill will not be seen locally until they expire. I respect though that he did stick to his guns as I think it's the correct thing to do for the state at this time. I am curious to see how this plays out in other states.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 11, 2011 14:16:46 GMT -5
The real interesting part comes when this contract is over and they go for the new one. Usually contracts state all provisions of the previous contract apply. This will take years to resolve. Well, if this is true- it could be the absolute end of the Democratic Party in Wisconsin. If the position of the Democrats is that they are going to continue the existing public employee union agreements, they're toast. Wisconsin has a requirement to balance the budget. If they don't pledge to cut spending, they're promising to raise taxes. It didn't work out so well for the last guy that made that promise.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 11, 2011 14:51:53 GMT -5
rockon, it should have been done at the bargaining table. PBP, I am thinking it will be the end of a party in WI - the reps. Can't be too hard line and expect to keep winning. Like in PA, the Rep Gov is cutting school subsidies, which will cut 16% from my local school district. Guess who gets to make that up with his property taxes? No way in hell I am gonna vote for that moron again. No, I won't get a break on income taxes either.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 11, 2011 15:38:58 GMT -5
Doing these things at the bargaining table would be the preferred method if it were effective but in the case of unions for public servants there is no jeopardy to just refuse accepting the fact that the things they were collectively bargaining for were not reasonable or things that the majority of people bargain for. So they could simple refuse to negotiate and delay doing anything to resolve these discrepancies. Unfortunately it is the state of politics in this country with our two party monopoly. The Democrats used procedural methods to cram their health insurance bill down our throats, they used procedural methods to stop a bill from being voted on in WI and now the Republicans have used a similar method to circumvent their obstruction. None of these are the correct way to conduct business but it's where we are at today. Please help organize people to vote these two parties out of there power positions and our country will be better for it.
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rockon
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Post by rockon on Mar 11, 2011 15:42:44 GMT -5
oped, Please think about where "federal money" comes from. I think it is from the states. And who would they have to defend themselves from? Canada or our own government?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 11, 2011 15:59:55 GMT -5
rockon, it should have been done at the bargaining table. PBP, I am thinking it will be the end of a party in WI - the reps. Can't be too hard line and expect to keep winning. Like in PA, the Rep Gov is cutting school subsidies, which will cut 16% from my local school district. Guess who gets to make that up with his property taxes? No way in hell I am gonna vote for that moron again. No, I won't get a break on income taxes either. You gotta be at the bargaining table, the flee bagger Democrats were in Illinois. Governor Walker is extremely reasonable. His proposal balanced the budget without a single state employee losing their job. In this economy, that's a pretty generous proposal. Walker's aim was always to protect Wisconsin state workers-- from themselves, and from their union. Under the Democrat / State Employee's union proposals, 6,000 state workers would have lost their jobs. The governor went to bat for the state workers, AND for taxpayers. He also wanted to make sure not only to save the money, but to put in place long term policy solutions-- essentially restore the policy to where it was 2 years ago-- to prevent this situation from becoming an annual occurrance. "Extreme" and "hard line" are just talking points. And you may be right- Walker might lose on the political front. But an objective look at the proposal shows a reasonable, middle-of-the road, even very state worker friendly set of laws. Wisconsin state workers weren't victims of some draconian system two years ago before they had collective bargaining rights, and they aren't victims now that things are back to where they were two years ago. My suspicion is that this issue is a winner for Walker, or else why would Obama-- who eagerly waded into the mess a few weeks ago-- utterly ignore it now? He doesn't want to join the left wing freak out. He knows what Howard Fineman knows...Democrats have over-reacted, and are making fools of themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 11, 2011 17:13:45 GMT -5
"Please think about where "federal money" comes from. I think it is from the states."
Disproportionately... with the exception of maybe Texas, most of the conservative states that would want to break off, actually take more than they give...
And Texas would be the most likely to have to put up a fight, i would guess... I'm thinking Mexico would like it back....
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 12, 2011 7:05:06 GMT -5
Amazing how everyone envies the union's salaries and benefits! Had people kept up with inflation instead of being repressed by "the man", they too would be adequately paid. Let's face it, $10 per hour just doesn't cut it!
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 13, 2011 7:40:23 GMT -5
Lead by example. The legislature and govenor should have salaries and benefits cut first. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I have really had it with hypocritical leaders. Their own greed knows no bounds, and if they are in financial crisis, it it through their own doing, but they blame the teachers and other state workers. No, I am not pro teachers. They have not been doing their jobs for years, but rights won at the bargaining table should be lost there as well.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 14, 2011 0:55:32 GMT -5
They've only had these so-called "rights" for the last two years. The balance has simply been restored.
In the high school district I grew up in, you could cut ALL the sports and extra cirricular activities and still not save enough money to pay the superintendant, the administrators, and the five highest paid teachers.
That's actually quite enterprising. Perhaps other schools should be as creative in paying for their programs. Seems that if schools need more money- there's places they could get it. This is but one of those places.
I'd be curious to know what the average teacher's salary and benefits costs the district. I have no doubt the super is overpaid- most are. However, the low paid teacher is something of a myth in the last decade- it usually blows up once you start digging into teacher pay.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 14, 2011 0:58:24 GMT -5
I know there was a terrible disaster in Japan, Lybia and much of the middle east is on fire, and there are some big fish to fry out there- but there's almost a media blackout on Wisconsin, and Obama has said NOTHING about it in quite awhile, nor was he even asked about it in his presser Friday. That tells me something almost for certain: Democrats and the unions are losing the issue. There's no political hay to be made out of it, and in fact, it may be an outright loser.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Mar 14, 2011 8:49:15 GMT -5
PS, Pennsylvania is cutting school funding too! Yep, they pledged not to raise taxes. So their school funding cuts will cut my local school district by about 16%. Guess who's property taxes go up to cover the deficit? Is is too much to ask for intelligent legislators? One guy, with no co sponsors is proposing legislators pay 10% of their health care. He would be the one with "the people" patch.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Mar 15, 2011 23:02:39 GMT -5
Sums it up pretty well. I think we win this debate.
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