djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 28, 2015 11:58:12 GMT -5
I have, and I chalk up that response to ignorance. The schools are not what they once were- they are NOTHING like when we were growing up. I lead a local stop common core group, and we are quite well informed on the state of education and we have a tremendous number of liberal allies in the fight. It's a common-ground issue. www.stopcommoncorefl.com/i am smart enough to know an ad hominem attack when i see it. i have school age kids, Paul. i have looked into this. you are wrong. the school my son is in is MORE challenging than my HS. by far. it is a college prep charter school and only the best students make it into it. edit: i might add that the charter system was a conservative idea, and a really good one. it is working, and producing better results.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 28, 2015 12:03:40 GMT -5
Expelling kids for stupid nonsense is one thing. Who respects a school that would expel a student for biting a pop tart in the shape of a gun or accidently bringing a pocket knife to school and asking a teacher to take it, etc. school shoot-ups might be another. bullying a third. there are lots of reasons that parents want to home school.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 28, 2015 12:05:33 GMT -5
You are posting wild speculative wishful thinking. You are not posting from a place of being fully informed. The main place of differentiation is with the purpose / objective of education. Government run schools are literally madhouses. They are training for the insane asylum that our nation is becoming. If you don't see this, there are two possible reasons: you don't know; you don't want to know. Paul- did you actually READ that post, before you responded? the final paragraph did not leave much room for disagreement, imo.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2015 12:17:21 GMT -5
Paul, you are posting from a place of intense paranoia. There are two possible reasons...you don't know or you don't want to know. You're also posting from a place of incredible arrogance (as usual). Schools are Godless and amoral? according to who? You? Who the hell are you to decide that schools need to teach about imaginary deities? You want Creationism taught as well? I suppose you do. I think it's important to teach sex ed and inform students about transgenderism. Those are real things, that kids will see in the real world, unlike your Bronze Age fables.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 28, 2015 12:46:01 GMT -5
It is safe to say that in regards to many things, Paul tends to be of a more conservative orientation. However, that in itself is HIS problem! Whatever he or anybody else brings up for discussion on this board might be so they could have some other opinion on the mater so they could reflect upon, consider it and make an informed decision if need be. While I consider many of his opinions/takes far off from mine, they are just that but doesn't mean that I don't ponder them or even have a chuckle once in a while. All due respect Weltschmerz, telling me I suck at spelling is something that I can live with but telling someone that they are "posting from a place of intense paranoia" or that they are arrogant I believe it to be in contradiction to the COD. The discussion is not about personal traits but about opinion! Note:"...according to whom?" I believe it to be the proper grammatical form. pb!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2015 13:07:36 GMT -5
It is safe to say that in regards to many things, Paul tends to be of a more conservative orientation. However, that in itself is HIS problem! Whatever he or anybody else brings up for discussion on this board might be so they could have some other opinion on the mater so they could reflect upon, consider it and make an informed decision if need be. While I consider many of his opinions/takes far off from mine, they are just that but doesn't mean that I don't ponder them or even have a chuckle once in a while. All due respect Weltschmerz, telling me I suck at spelling is something that I can live with but telling someone that they are "posting from a place of intense paranoia" or that they are arrogant I believe it to be in contradiction to the COD. The discussion is not about personal traits but about opinion! Note:"...according to whom?" I believe it to be the proper grammatical form. pb! I'm not the one homeschooling. In any case, we all suck at something. Like I said, I suck at math and would never dream of teaching it. As far as Paul is concerned...I don't know how well you know him. He insists that he's always right, that we should all listen to him, that he's here to educate us, that he's never wrong, and we shouldn't doubt him, ever. If that isn't the epitome of arrogance, I don't know what is.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on May 28, 2015 13:31:53 GMT -5
The answer to the question posed in the OP is self-evident: it is because fewer people have confidence in the ability of government run schools to effectively give their children the basic life skills they need as a foundation for future learning in the areas of reading, writing, mathematics, science, and the arts. Many people are better informed about the indoctrination of students into a godless, amoral worldview without clear standards of conduct that make sense and work in the real world. Schools are concerned with things like birth control, and gender-neutral bathrooms, and these are not only inappropriate topics, and just plain inappropriate- but they are deliberately designed to create moral confusion so that the government may introduce a substitute moral code; where for example, individual rights to life, liberty, and property are no longer virtuous. It is not difficult for a well-informed, completely objective person to see. However, it is difficult to accept if one is already sympathetic to big government, and they share the politician's and bureaucrat's frustration that there are free-thinking, independent-minded, and untrainable souls which they cannot yet full control. i think that is a jaundiced and biased view of both the problem, and what "other people think". i am certain that some fraction of the problem is just as you see it. and it is quite true that MOST homeschooling is done by evangelical Christians who want a more parochial approach to education. there are, of course, religious schools. but the COST of these schools are quite high. i think your failure to analyze the economic aspect of the situation is a serious flaw in your argument, Paul. Here again you really just are not especially well informed on this issue. It is NOT true that MOST homeschooling is done by evangelical Christians. I'm not sure it ever even was true, but currently that is a misperception. If you're first cost sensitive, private school can seem expensive. If you truly understand the costs of the alternative, you realize it's a bargain. However, many homeschoolers are doing so because they have begun to question the entire Prussian model, and they have realized that you can't plug in good values to a bad model and make it good.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 28, 2015 13:50:02 GMT -5
Forgive me for being unclear! When I stated that "we are homeschooling" was more or less a broad description/interpretation of the facts. Is just the same way when someone is calling and asking " Do you build fireplaces?" DW is promptly answering :"yes, we do!" But she's never been on a job with me as part of the crew. And back to Paul, I do know at least in a way where he stands on issues. And as much as I disagree with his stands I still do believe that he is entitled to the claim of being right. After all we all believe that our ideas are the right ones. Moreover, some of us are never wrong! Take your stand on education for example: education needs to be based on science and research and so on. Completely agree with that but what do we do about religion? Shouldn't we at least give them an insight in what it is? What it stands for, what is or was used for?! Sometimes, believing in God or any other deity might bring solace to one in a moment of need. And ultimately is a mater of choice. Throwing young adults out in the world with nothing but one choice is not good enough for me. The more choices one has, the better it is.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2015 13:59:41 GMT -5
Forgive me for being unclear! When I stated that "we are homeschooling" was more or less a broad description/interpretation of the facts. Is just the same way when someone is calling and asking " Do you build fireplaces?" DW is promptly answering :"yes, we do!" But she's never been on a job with me as part of the crew. And back to Paul, I do know at least in a way where he stands on issues. And as much as I disagree with his stands I still do believe that he is entitled to the claim of being right. After all we all believe that our ideas are the right ones. Moreover, some of us are never wrong! Take your stand on education for example: education needs to be based on science and research and so on. Completely agree with that but what do we do about religion? Shouldn't we at least give them an insight in what it is? What it stands for, what is or was used for?! Sometimes, believing in God or any other deity might bring solace to one in a moment of need. And ultimately is a mater of choice. Throwing young adults out in the world with nothing but one choice is not good enough for me. The more choices one has, the better it is. I have nothing against teaching Comparative Religion in schools. After all, understanding your neighbours can facilitate building bridges. That being said, proselytizing or pushing one religion? Oh hell, no!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2015 14:05:45 GMT -5
I'd prefer my child to draw on his own strengths and resources in a "moment of need", and not depend on magic or the supernatural.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 28, 2015 14:32:11 GMT -5
i think that is a jaundiced and biased view of both the problem, and what "other people think". i am certain that some fraction of the problem is just as you see it. and it is quite true that MOST homeschooling is done by evangelical Christians who want a more parochial approach to education. there are, of course, religious schools. but the COST of these schools are quite high. i think your failure to analyze the economic aspect of the situation is a serious flaw in your argument, Paul. Here again you really just are not especially well informed on this issue. It is NOT true that MOST homeschooling is done by evangelical Christians. I'm not sure it ever even was true, but currently that is a misperception. we can agree that being lectured by uninformed people is annoying. so please do yourself and everyone a favor and get informed. TYIA. Brian Ray, president of the National Home Education Research Institute, says recent studies suggest that evangelicals still account for roughly 70 percent of home-schooling families. www.usnews.com/news/religion/articles/2009/01/09/as-home-schooling-surges-the-evangelical-share-dropsas i have said before, i can back up everything i say on the boards, Paul. don't doubt me. ever.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 28, 2015 14:52:16 GMT -5
Because you disagree with someone does not make that person uninformed. They simply have a different opinion of the situation. Insisting yours is the only informed and correct opinion there is only annoys people and makes them less likely to take you seriously. This made me laugh out loud. Ask 100 people on the street what the Prussian Model of education is, and see if you don't get 100 blank stares. Here is a PennState study on homeschooling: news.psu.edu/story/141246/2005/10/17/research/probing-question-why-do-some-people-choose-homeschool-their-kids"Religious beliefs and values are often cited as the most compelling reasons for home-schooling," says Dan Marshall, professor of education."
Of course, you probably consider Penn State another educational facility trying to create moral confusion, so no doubt you don't care what their education professors say.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 28, 2015 15:23:55 GMT -5
Because you disagree with someone does not make that person uninformed. They simply have a different opinion of the situation. Insisting yours is the only informed and correct opinion there is only annoys people and makes them less likely to take you seriously. This made me laugh out loud. Ask 100 people on the street what the Prussian Model of education is, and see if you don't get 100 blank stares. Here is a PennState study on homeschooling: news.psu.edu/story/141246/2005/10/17/research/probing-question-why-do-some-people-choose-homeschool-their-kids"Religious beliefs and values are often cited as the most compelling reasons for home-schooling," says Dan Marshall, professor of education."
Of course, you probably consider Penn State another educational facility trying to create moral confusion, so no doubt you don't care what their education professors say. 70% of all homeschooling was done by evangelicals in 2009. i very much doubt it has fallen below 2/3 in the last 6 years, but if so, Paul should prove it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2015 16:17:43 GMT -5
Because you disagree with someone does not make that person uninformed. They simply have a different opinion of the situation. Insisting yours is the only informed and correct opinion there is only annoys people and makes them less likely to take you seriously. This made me laugh out loud. Ask 100 people on the street what the Prussian Model of education is, and see if you don't get 100 blank stares. Here is a PennState study on homeschooling: news.psu.edu/story/141246/2005/10/17/research/probing-question-why-do-some-people-choose-homeschool-their-kids"Religious beliefs and values are often cited as the most compelling reasons for home-schooling," says Dan Marshall, professor of education."
Of course, you probably consider Penn State another educational facility trying to create moral confusion, so no doubt you don't care what their education professors say. 70% of all homeschooling was done by evangelicals in 2009. i very much doubt it has fallen below 2/3 in the last 6 years, but if so, Paul should prove it. But...but... Paul has proclaimed that it was never a majority of evangelicals who homeschooled. Facts be damned. If Paul says it, it's gospel. He knows All Things. Don't doubt him, ever.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 28, 2015 16:27:35 GMT -5
You say that people are not home schooling kids for religious reasons, but the reason you gave for why parents are homeschooling their kids abounds with religiously weighted words like Godless, amoral, moral confusion, and with subjects that religious parents have historically stated as being inappropriate for classrooms - like birth control.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2015 16:35:36 GMT -5
You don't want kids taught about birth control?? Why not? It makes sense and works in the real world, as opposed to abstinence-only, which doesn't work at all.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 28, 2015 16:59:02 GMT -5
70% of all homeschooling was done by evangelicals in 2009. i very much doubt it has fallen below 2/3 in the last 6 years, but if so, Paul should prove it. But...but... Paul has proclaimed that it was never a majority of evangelicals who homeschooled. Facts be damned. If Paul says it, it's gospel. He knows All Things. Don't doubt him, ever.
i can't tell you how sick i am of being told i am ignorant by ignorant people.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 28, 2015 17:00:47 GMT -5
But...but... Paul has proclaimed that it was never a majority of evangelicals who homeschooled. Facts be damned. If Paul says it, it's gospel. He knows All Things. Don't doubt him, ever.
i can't tell you how sick i am of being told i am ignorant by ignorant people. LOL! I've got the trick for that one! I pay absolutely no attention to the pronouncements of ignorant people!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on May 29, 2015 1:47:17 GMT -5
Oh, good grief!!
Creationist textbooks may not be part of the Alberta public school curriculum but they're easy to find in Red Deer this weekend.
Parents from across western Canada are in town for the largest homeschooling convention in the country. Many of the textbooks found at the gathering are not found at public school and for those selling their wares this weekend, the convention offers parents a level of free choice in their children's education.
"If people want to learn about it then I think they should be able to learn about it," said Ann Cook with Intelligent Design, a Saskatoon company selling science textbooks that teach creationism. "I believe in the value of choice so I believe [you] should have the ability to choose what to believe."
www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-homeschool-convention-offers-creationist-textbooks-1.2608338
Really? Science textbooks? Sorry, but if it includes creationism, then it's not science. Not even close. This is what passes for science in homeschools?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on May 29, 2015 2:11:23 GMT -5
i can't tell you how sick i am of being told i am ignorant by ignorant people. LOL! I've got the trick for that one! I pay absolutely no attention to the pronouncements of ignorant people! Unfortunate that we provide a forum for ignorance. Reminds me of something I read somewhere....
"It's a great pity the right of free speech isn't based on the obligation to say something sensible." I like that saying. Wish I could remember where I saw it.... Oh well.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on May 29, 2015 10:46:34 GMT -5
The worm always turns, as they say.
Back in the sixties, it was often the left that was railing against public schools, for indoctrinating and brainwashing young kids, turning them into tools to be used by the military-industrial cabal that ran the country.
The indoctrination began at the start of the day, every day, with the fascist Pledge of Allegiance.
Students were stripped of their individualism, sometimes even being forced to wear uniforms or other matching clothes. This was reinforced by such things as school colors. Students were encouraged to behave in certain a approved manner, and individualism and creativity was discouraged and even punished.
Through the use of insidious and Eurocentric texts the prejudices and righteousness of our fascistic and imperialist power cabal were foisted upon the students. The concepts of American Exceptionalism, and Amerika uber alles was taught as a given.
Through school and through extra-curricular activities the process of submission to uniformity and subservience to the greater power were also reinforced. All athletic programs were in addition inherently nationalistic, teaching an "us vs. them" mentality. Groups such as the Boy Scouts of America were virtual training grounds for little soldiers, readying them to go off to Vietnam or some other guerre du jour.
It all seemed very insidious and evil, and gave rise to a groundswell of alternative "free" schools, based on various theories of alternative education. Conservatives were appropriately horrified by all of this, further evidence to them of the moral decay and decline of society.
two things: first, part of what conservatives are railing against is indoctrination, as well- so it is a kumbaya moment for the right and the left. second: liberals still believe everything that you said about public schools- that they are training grounds in primary jingoism, submission to authority, and the absolute goodness and wholesomeness of American government. so, now we teach our kids about these things at home, and they go to public school anyway, just with a broader mind about it, and a more skeptical POV about the "lessons" they are learning.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 29, 2015 14:01:58 GMT -5
Weltschmerz, I just got of a skid-steer after eight hours on it. I'm surprised that I can read, my head is spinning so bad. And to put you at ease, no I don't teach them spelling, the wife does but as a matter of fact I am quiet good at it. And yeah! There is this thing they have on computers where you write a word and gives you all sorts of options. Thesaurus or so but who has time for that? Anything else that I may be of assistance to you today? And if you need to know what a skid-steer is, all you have to do is ask! But nicely! I'd like to know what a skid-steer is. Will you tell me? I'd like some reward for following this thread this far and I suspect that learning what a skid-steer is may be the only thing that I am likely to learn from this thread. FWIW, I drive a hilo and am under the impression that a skid-steer is a type of agricultural equipment that costs more than my house and is absolutely exhausting to operate.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 29, 2015 14:04:30 GMT -5
Skid-steer
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 29, 2015 14:31:27 GMT -5
Yup, operating that for eight hours would be pretty zombifying. The fear of killing someone if you make a mistake is pretty exhausting. The fear of getting that piece of equipment stuck somewhere is also pretty unnerving.
I might be able to operate something like that for eight hours if it was out in a field with absolutely nobody else around but after eight hours of driving it, I'd have a devil of a time getting it back into the polebarn. I'd be so exhausted and afraid of the damage that I might do that I'd probably park the thing as soon as I hit gravel and make someone else maneuver it around people and things that are expensive to replace.
ETA: Can you tell me something about the turn radius on that thing? I'm not afraid enough of it yet.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 29, 2015 15:21:23 GMT -5
The one in the picture is on tracks so as far as I can tell you is damn near impossible to get stuck even in the mud. Mine is on wheels. I got an older model Bobcat 763. The generic name for this things is in fact "loader" but they make attachments for them so you can dig, drill, jackhammer, cut wood, sift soil etc. Bobcat alone makes for their equipment about 80-90 attachments. If you can fit that thing somewhere than you can turn it around. Works on joysticks like the tanks and is mote or less the same principle on steering as the tanks. That's why people call them skid steer: to steer you have to skid. Mine is about 8' long so if I have 8' of space I can turn it around. The only bad thing is that they don't have much of a suspension if there is any so after just a few hours on it you feel like your liver is gonna crush and your eyes won't stop bouncing! But is fun
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 29, 2015 15:28:10 GMT -5
And no, they are not that bad price wise for what they can do. Something like the one in the picture just with the bucket attachment as in the picture, BOBCAT made goes for about $40k. Good thing is that they rarely break-at least the Bobcat.
Similar skid steer made by New Holland is about $30k The one in the picture -John Deere -$42-45 k
Depending on what will be used for mostly, there are preferences on the brand.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 29, 2015 16:09:56 GMT -5
Skid-steer At my work we call those bobcats? Must be a southern thing.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 29, 2015 16:21:30 GMT -5
I have a question for people who home school - I was reading an article about a woman who grew up in a fundamentalist household in the same evangelical group as the Duggars and she said that, with a home schooling education, she had a GED, not a HS graduation diploma, and she felt that put her at a disadvantage when looking for a job.
Is it correct that there is no type of homeschooling diploma? Are homeschooled kids obligated to take and pass the GED to demonstrate proficiency?
If that's the case, does that have an impact on applying for entrance to a college? Does a college consider a GED any less than a HS diploma?
What about applying for college scholarships? Do they mostly look at SAT scores, so homeschooling doesn't impact that, or are there instances where the lack of involvement in HS activities can hamper the kid's application (I guess this would depend on the type of scholarship applied for? )
DS went to a public school, and in our state if you keep a 3.5 GPA through senior year of HS you can get the HOPE Scholarship, which pays for your tuition and some of your books. Can homeschoolers product a report card with grades that can be summited to the state for those kinds of scholarships?
Not bashing homeschooling at all, I think whatever works best for the kid is the way to go, but I hadn't thought about these issues before and it made me curious.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 29, 2015 16:22:22 GMT -5
Skid-steer At my work we call those bobcats? Must be a southern thing. Bobcat is a brand name. Skid steer is the generic name. Kleenex vs. tissue.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on May 29, 2015 16:28:04 GMT -5
At my work we call those bobcats? Must be a southern thing. Bobcat is a brand name. Skid steer is the generic name. Kleenex vs. tissue. Ok - got it! They're fun to drive, though, whatever they're called.
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