The Captain
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Post by The Captain on May 22, 2015 8:37:04 GMT -5
Personally I have found that forgiving someone does more to help me heal than does continuing to carry a grudge. As others have said, there is a huge difference between forgiving and acting as if nothing ever happened.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 8:38:43 GMT -5
Sugi, it's impossible to ignore him completely since we do have to work together. I can ignore texts, emails, and his calls at work (i can see it's him calling). But if we're working a shift together and he physically puts himself in my space, there's nothing I can do other than tell him I'm not interested in talking to him - which I do - but he'll ignore that too.
Later, yes I get that. But I'm still so angry that I can't do it (forgive). It's been a year, so part of me feels like I ought to be able to let it go. But I can't. You can't let it go because he's still violating by trying to force you to deal with him when you clearly don't want to. I think that even if you wanted to, it's pretty hard to forgive someone that is still being disrespectful of your wishes.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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So well rounded, I'm pointless...
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on May 22, 2015 12:43:30 GMT -5
I have learned so much from this board. I joined in the MSN days from an article Liz wrote. I learned about 0% balance transfer arbitrage (oh, the days of 4% savings accounts), credit card churning, maxing credit card points, and leveraging of debt effectively. I learned more about index funds and Vanguard. I think this knowledge has enabled me to increase my net worth a lot faster and more efficiently. Growing up, I learned to increase by paying down debt and putting $$ into a savings account. While that isn't wrong, it isn't the most efficient way to increase wealth. Credit cards and debt were bad, no matter what the interest rate. Phil would keel over talking finances to my family. Most importantly, I have learned from the collective wisdom on this board. I feel like everyone here are friends, even though I've only met a couple in real-life. I reference people here in the real world a lot (DH is probably sick of hearing me... "Bonny and Phil say this", "Guess what's happening to Dark and Zib?", "MPL got kicked off a DR group", etc). It means a lot to me that people here share their experiences and the ups/downs.
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Icelandic Woman
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Post by Icelandic Woman on May 22, 2015 12:55:55 GMT -5
Who is this Liz everyone keeps mentioning?
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myrrh
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Post by myrrh on May 22, 2015 14:11:56 GMT -5
Liz Pulliam Weston used to write a lot of articles on MSN Money and kind of hosted the MSN money board. She's now at asklizweston.com/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 16:27:10 GMT -5
I don't know what turns this thread has taken, but I wanted to point out that forgiving doesn't mean you have to try to mend the relationship. Forgiving is something you do for yourself, not the relationship or the other person. It's basically just deciding that "what this person did was f*&*%d up, but I'm going to let go of the negative feelings I've been harboring in my heart". If you still feel like you need to protect yourself from that person or you just don't like them, it's ok to still stay away from them. The whole point is for YOU to let it go and move forward with your life without dragging all that baggage (hurt, sadness, anger, whatever) along with you. I really disagree. I don't see forgiveness that way. You can move away, and move on, and hardly ever think about it, and live a nice life focusing on the here and now without this phony 'forgiveness'. Moving on from something negative and not letting if affect you has nothing to do with forgiveness, and does not necessarily entail anything about some other person who may be responsible for the negative. I think what many of us here are struggling with is that these people and these relationships are not 100% negative. Like maybe they are 80% negative, but there is some kernel of what the relationship should or could be. So - walking away and never speaking to them again isn't clearly the best and only solution. You don't have to forgive someone to let go of the negativity. For example - what purpose would there be to forgive a sociopathic serial killer for murdering and torturing a loved one? Would you really ever wish them well? But - a person would still need to move on with their own lives, and put some things into the past. I use to feel the same way you do about forgiveness. I thought that some shit, you just don't forgive and by refusing to forgive, I held on to some of my power. I can only share with you how my personal views changed. I realized that I didn't want to walk around with all that sadness, hurt and anger anymore. The people that caused most of those feelings were either dead or going about their lives, while those feelings were still affecting me and my life. They don't know I forgave them (like I said 2 of them were dead), because my forgiveness wasn't for their benefit. THEY didn't deserve my forgiveness, I deserved the freedom that forgiving them gave me. Forgiveness doesn't have anything to do with justice. Forgiveness is personal, justice has to do with the laws of the land or nature. If someone commits a crime against me, me forgiving them doesn't let them off the hook as far as justice being served. Because forgiving is NOT saying what they did was ok, they still have to deal with the consequences of their actions, through the legal system, or whatever form the consecquences takes. Forgiving them doesn't make it my duty to try to shield them from that. Imo, forgiveness is taking my power back. As long as I hold onto the negative emotions, that person still has power over me because they're still affecting me through the emotions I'm wrestling with. I don't think it necessarily means I have to "forget" the wrong either, because if I forget it, I may give them the opportunity to harm me again. It just means that I choose to let go of the resentment, anger, hurt, sadness, or ill will I hold against that person, and move on with my life. The rest of what happens depends on the circumstances and what I'm ok with. Trust me, I understand where you're coming from. I didn't understand how forgiveness was for your own well-being and frankly, it sounded like a bunch of bullshit, especially when it comes to serious offenses. But I read a bunch of stuff and thought about it a lot, because I wanted to be free of certain things in my past and other people's shit, and I got a better understanding of what forgiving is and isn't. Learning to forgive has helped ME, it didn't necessarily do anything positive for anybody else. As far as relationships, everyone has to do what is best for them. My sense of self-preservation has kicked in so strongly that if someone constantly offends or hurts me, I will distance myself from them. I don't care who it is or how much I love them. Sometimes you have to love people from a distance.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on May 22, 2015 16:37:03 GMT -5
Meh,
I am not one of the "in crowd", so it makes no difference to me.
One thing I must say, I love the fact that there are still some frugal sensible people out there.
Which doesn't mean you forgo all immediate gratification for a secure financial future...some of you should live a little.
I mean that in a respectful and good way.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 17:21:51 GMT -5
I use to feel the same way you do about forgiveness. I thought that some shit, you just don't forgive and by refusing to forgive, I held on to some of my power. I can only share with you how my personal views changed. I realized that I didn't want to walk around with all that sadness, hurt and anger anymore. The people that caused most of those feelings were either dead or going about their lives, while those feelings were still affecting me and my life. They don't know I forgave them (like I said 2 of them were dead), because my forgiveness wasn't for their benefit. THEY didn't deserve my forgiveness, I deserved the freedom that forgiving them gave me. Forgiveness doesn't have anything to do with justice. Forgiveness is personal, justice has to do with the laws of the land or nature. If someone commits a crime against me, me forgiving them doesn't let them off the hook as far as justice being served. Because forgiving is NOT saying what they did was ok, they still have to deal with the consequences of their actions, through the legal system, or whatever form the consecquences takes. Forgiving them doesn't make it my duty to try to shield them from that. Imo, forgiveness is taking my power back. As long as I hold onto the negative emotions, that person still has power over me because they're still affecting me through the emotions I'm wrestling with. I don't think it necessarily means I have to "forget" the wrong either, because if I forget it, I may give them the opportunity to harm me again. It just means that I choose to let go of the resentment, anger, hurt, sadness, or ill will I hold against that person, and move on with my life. The rest of what happens depends on the circumstances and what I'm ok with. Trust me, I understand where you're coming from. I didn't understand how forgiveness was for your own well-being and frankly, it sounded like a bunch of bullshit, especially when it comes to serious offenses. But I read a bunch of stuff and thought about it a lot, because I wanted to be free of certain things in my past and other people's shit, and I got a better understanding of what forgiving is and isn't. Learning to forgive has helped ME, it didn't necessarily do anything positive for anybody else. As far as relationships, everyone has to do what is best for them. My sense of self-preservation has kicked in so strongly that if someone constantly offends or hurts me, I will distance myself from them. I don't care who it is or how much I love them. Sometimes you have to love people from a distance. I don't see the necessity of forgiveness to get past the negative emotions. It sounds more like acceptance. This happened, and it can't be changed and I'm moving on. so - a person gets hit by a drunk driver and is permanently paralyzed. After years of grief and bitterness they get over their negative emotions and embrace life as it is and find a new life for themselves. so - a person gets hit by a boulder in a rock slide and is permanently paralyzed. After years of grief and bitterness they get over their negative emotions and embrace life as it is and find a new life for themselves. Many would call the first scenario forgiveness, but then, is the boulder forgiven in the second? Well, I think forgiveness comes into play with humans because they can willfully and act in ways that they know can or will harm other people. A boulder just does what boulders do. I don't know that I'd call it acceptance, but I think we agree that at some point we have to truly let shit go and move on if we want to be at peace and have a shot at happiness. I guess it doesn't really matter what we call it if the bottom line is still the same. I just think that you have the impression that forgiveness requires some kind of grand gesture or something, in part because you called it phony. I could very well be wrong about what you think though.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on May 22, 2015 19:13:46 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this forgiveness thing. And I've come to realize that I do, in fact, equate forgiveness with "being okay with" whatever it was.
I'm sure that it's not the right way to think of it, but it's just how I feel. In the case of my now ex friend, I don't see how I will ever forgive him. But that doesn't mean I let it have control over my life. I don't. I may think about him, but it's only in passing and I don't dwell on the negative. The only time I really think about the bad history is when he's disagreeing with me about whether or not we're friends - and that's not often because the opportunities just aren't there. For the most part, he's out of sight out of mind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2015 19:41:39 GMT -5
I've been thinking about this forgiveness thing. And I've come to realize that I do, in fact, equate forgiveness with "being okay with" whatever it was. I'm sure that it's not the right way to think of it, but it's just how I feel. In the case of my now ex friend, I don't see how I will ever forgive him. But that doesn't mean I let it have control over my life. I don't. I may think about him, but it's only in passing and I don't dwell on the negative. The only time I really think about the bad history is when he's disagreeing with me about whether or not we're friends - and that's not often because the opportunities just aren't there. For the most part, he's out of sight out of mind. At least you gave it some thought. I don't know how else to explain how it's not being ok with whatever happened and I understand why that makes us feel like forgiving ain't gonna happen. I was just sharing my perspective and how it's helped me. But everyone is different and we all have to do what we think is best for our own well-being. I think it's good to think a little deeper about things sometimes, even if it doesn't change how we see things. Which goes back to the OP and is another reason I like these boards. The different perspectives and opinions make me explore and clarify my own opinions and thoughts a little more sometimes.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 22, 2015 19:44:20 GMT -5
My brother is the only person in my life I can't forgive. I don't wish to forgive him. I don't, however, give him any place in my thoughts. He might rise to the surface if he tries to contact, as he's done recently (tried to get to me through my poor daughter-in-law), but only long enough for me to acknowledge the fact that he did so, that he's still an arse, and again erase him from existence - at least, my existence. I don't recognize him as a fellow human being. As far as I'm concerned, he doesn't exist. It works best for me that way.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 23, 2015 6:52:25 GMT -5
What does your co-worker say when you tell him to go away and leave you alone, as in forever?
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on May 23, 2015 7:53:01 GMT -5
The same thing as when I told him to pretend I'm dead. he just laughs and says he's not going to do that - because we're friends.
I've accepted that he will never agree with my thought process, and as long as he's not bugging me all the time (he's not) I just go on with my life.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 23, 2015 9:49:22 GMT -5
Ugh
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2015 11:12:48 GMT -5
The same thing as when I told him to pretend I'm dead. he just laughs and says he's not going to do that - because we're friends.
I've accepted that he will never agree with my thought process, and as long as he's not bugging me all the time (he's not) I just go on with my life. I'm sorry, but I'd probably laugh if someone told me to pretend they're dead. But even if the delivery was funny, the message is clear and should be respected.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on May 23, 2015 13:06:44 GMT -5
I told him that early on, when I was still really pissed, but I've said it several times since then. I wasn't even pretending to be kidding when I did so. Personally, I don't see what's funny about it. To me, it's effectively saying "f off".
His persistence kind of makes me laugh, because I really don't get his motivation. He's not making any effort to make things right, which makes sense given he doesn't see that he did any wrong. I don't believe he truly cares one way or the other if we're friends either, so why not just say "ok, see ya"? To me, it just feels like a stupid game on his part, only I'm not going to play.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 23, 2015 17:41:02 GMT -5
It is a game on his part. His way of controlling you. If he can get a reaction he wins
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