Pope Francis Sends Priests To Forgive The 'Sin' Of Abortion

[weltschmerz]

May 11, 2015 14:17:31 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

May 11, 2015 13:46:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

Unless you actually read some of the results and found links stating what you state, all you know is your

search terms returned a lot of results.

I Binged 'Easter Bunny' and got 5,980,000 results. I know all the means is the search engine found and returned those results based on finding 'Easter Bunny', 'Easter', 'Bunny' and possibly things that seem related to that search term. 'war on christmas' returns 81,200,000 results. Does not mean there is one, nor that everyone agrees.

I read a few of them, but not all 28,000,000.

Here's a list of medical publications supporting my claim:

Medical Publications

And here is a website that explores the different aspects of the question:

rational wiki

And lastly, a survey of U.S. doctors:

Survey

Most of the doctors, 57 out of every 100, said that pregnancy begins at conception, while 28 out of every 100 said it begins at implantation. The rest, 15 out of every 100, said they were unsure.

57% isn't an "overwhelming majority", as you claimed. It's a small majority.

[hoops902]

There is a MASSIVE difference between "pregnancy begins at conception" and what was being claimed as to when "life" begins.

[Opti]

May 11, 2015 14:17:31 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

May 11, 2015 13:46:31 GMT -5 Opti said:

Unless you actually read some of the results and found links stating what you state, all you know is your

search terms returned a lot of results.

I Binged 'Easter Bunny' and got 5,980,000 results. I know all the means is the search engine found and returned those results based on finding 'Easter Bunny', 'Easter', 'Bunny' and possibly things that seem related to that search term. 'war on christmas' returns 81,200,000 results. Does not mean there is one, nor that everyone agrees.

I read a few of them, but not all 28,000,000.

Here's a list of medical publications supporting my claim:

Medical Publications

And here is a website that explores the different aspects of the question:

rational wiki

And lastly, a survey of U.S. doctors:

Survey

Most of the doctors, 57 out of every 100, said that pregnancy begins at conception, while 28 out of every 100 said it begins at implantation. The rest, 15 out of every 100, said they were unsure.

pregnancy does not equal start of human life. It may for you but it is not a universal definition. Some define it when the soul joins with the body, etc.

[weltschmerz]

May 11, 2015 14:34:56 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

May 11, 2015 14:26:12 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

57% isn't an "overwhelming majority", as you claimed. It's a small majority.

85% is however.  Or do they do abortions between conception and implantation?  I'll take the the hit on semantics between my statement of "conception" - in the big picture though, this study proved the point of human life.

Yep. Plan B. IUDs also prevent implantation by creating a hostile environment.

No exactly abortions, but abortifacients. Minor difference.

[NastyWoman]

I am a very left-leaning pro-choice catholic ( NancysSummerSip lands on me when she topples over   ) and I totally see how this action by the pope would help many conflicted women who at one time actully had an abortion.  And why he can't just grant community-wide forgiviness (sp?) for abortions.  For a sin to be forgiven you need to confess that you commited said sin.

However, on the subject of abortion, I strongly feel that the description of the opposing parties is absolutely biased and wrong.  It is not pro-live v. pro-choice - with the implied statement that those who are pro choice favor abortion.  It actuallyis pro-choice v. anti-choice with the latter group wishing to impose their choice on the rest of humanity -> as in I am against this so you will have to do as I say.

And if you think I am wrong, go back and find out what Sarah Palin once said about finding out she was pregnant with her youngest while in Louisiana.  She thought about having an abortion for a little but chose not to do so. Once that thought even enters your mind for a split second, you have become part of the pro-choice group independent of your ultimate decision! You Betcha...

[billisonboard]

May 11, 2015 14:17:31 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

...
Survey

Most of the doctors, 57 out of every 100, said that pregnancy begins at conception, while 28 out of every 100 said it begins at implantation. The rest, 15 out of every 100, said they were unsure.

May 10, 2015 6:30:41 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

... a question of "Is it a life?"

If you believe it is - which I do, and the overwhelming majority of medical professionals do, ....

Thanks for the link to a survey to support your claim. Here are some thoughts on the survey:

For the survey, Curlin and his colleagues sent questionnaires to more than 1,000 obstetrician-gynecologists. The questions asked whether pregnancy begins at conception, at implantation, or if the doctor was unsure. www.foxnews.com/health/2011/11/18/survey-us-doctors-disagree-on-pregnancy-start/

The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), formerly the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, is a professional association of physicians specializing in obstetrics and gynecology in the United States. It has a membership of over 55,000[1] and represents 90 percent of U.S. board-certified obstetrician-gynecologists.[2] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Congress_of_Obstetricians_and_Gynecologists

So they sent questionnaires to a small minority of the medical professionals directly involved in one area of medicine, there is no indication if they were selected randomly which would allow for generalization. There is also no indication of what the response rate was. Here is something that would give us an idea:

Internal surveys (i.e. employee surveys) generally have a much higher response rate than external surveys (e.g. customer satisfaction surveys). Internal surveys will generally receive a 30-40% response rate or more on average, compared to an average 10-15% response rate for external surveys. www.surveygizmo.com/survey-blog/survey-response-rates/

So we might be talking about a couple of hundred survey's returned, of which 57% "said that pregnancy begins at conception,".  It is interesting that the question asked was not when does life begin but rather when does pregnancy begin.  I don't feel that this survey supports the claim made.  YMMV.

[Tiny]

May 9, 2015 8:22:03 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Pope Francis is reportedly planning to offer a special pardon of sins to women who have undergone abortions, along with the doctors and nurses who helped them with that choice.

As part of his upcoming Holy Year of Mercy, the pontiff plans to send specially trained priests as “missionaries of mercy” to Catholic parishes around the world. The army of priests will reportedly hear these women’s confessions and absolve them of the “sin of a procured abortion,” the Irish Times reports. The forgiveness can also be given to healthcare workers who perform abortions.

Official Catholic doctrine places abortion in a special class of sins that leads to excommunication, a banishment from the life of the church that is considered one of its most serious punishments. Usually, only bishops or the Pope can offer forgiveness for these types of sins.

Pope Francis’ stance on the legality of abortion is in line with that of his predecessors, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI and Saint John Paul II. During a Vatican meeting with doctors and ethicists last fall, Francis called abortion a “sin against God.”





www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/08/pope-francis-abortions_n_7244630.html

I'm confused. Who benefits from this?   Couldn't a Catholic woman (or man) simply go to Confession and 'confess' to their local priest that they had an abortion (or facilitated one) - say their prescribed Hail Marys/Our Fathers and be done with it?  

On the other hand... How many Catholics are avoiding Church and Communion BECAUSE they've had an abortion/performed one/helped with one?  problably like none.         They know in their hearts they've been excommunicated - so if they are still recieving Communion they are just heaping sin on top of sin but the peer pressure is too much - better to hope God's merciful and keep it a secret. 
   
Will a 'special' priest visiting a parish cause alot of parishioners to suddenly flood the confessionials to 'fess up to this particular sin?       

I suspect there's a lot of Catholic women who have kept their abortion(s) a secret -  I would think a 'special priest' showing up to hear their confession isn't going to be enough to get them to bring out into the open what they've been hiding for a long time.   Assuming they can't keep their visit to the special confessional a secret.

I would assume that Catholic women who have voluntarily 'excommunicated' themselve - left the Church becasue of an abortion aren't going to go flocking back....
 
But then again, even though I grew up Catholic - I don't really get the whole sin thing much less 'confession'. 
I'm an Atheist... never had belief in God (which would explain the not really getting the whole sin/confession thing...)

[Tiny]

May 11, 2015 14:51:03 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

So I read through this thread (although will admit to skimming the past few pages).  Why are people opposed to and mocking  the Pope's plan?

Probably because it's just a tiny bit patronizing and totally overlooks/ignores a bunch of other Catholic ideas about the sanctity of life (the sin of masterbation, BC, etc).  Abortion is pretty much 100% a woman's nearly unforgivable sin...   

FWIW:  I am biased towards a misogynistic Catholic God... I got the pre Vatican II teachings and not the kinder gentler God that other's got...   I'm also an Atheist (never really developed a belief in God - even though got the good Catholic upbringing).  So, please take my opinions with a grain of salt.

[billisonboard]

May 11, 2015 15:19:25 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

... That's fine - I wasn't posting it for your benefit, although you're certainly welcome to have an opinion on it.

I was confused about your meme too.  Was it meant as ..

It was posted because it was spot on appropriate for the situation.

[steff]

I didn't "sin" by having an abortion....my RAPIST "sinned" when he raped me.  IMO I won't be paying the price for what was done TO me.

Not a single person ANYWHERE gets to decide if my situation was a "sin".  If anyone here wants to force a rape victim to carry a child to term, then YOU are part of the problem IMO.


and now I'm all pissed off.    I'm so sick of religious bullshit being pandered to the masses like it's the be all end all. 

[Green Eyed Lady]

May 11, 2015 14:51:03 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

So I read through this thread (although will admit to skimming the past few pages).  Why are people opposed to and mocking  the Pope's plan?

I was kind of thinking the same thing.  I see no down side here regardless of what one believes.  The only thing I'm getting from this discussion is that people are pissed he didn't include male masturbation in his plan. 

Masturbators unite!  Demand equal forgiveness!  Don't take this lying down!

Problem solved.

[CarolinaKat]

May 11, 2015 15:37:48 GMT -5 steff said:

I didn't "sin" by having an abortion....my RAPIST "sinned" when he raped me.  IMO I won't be paying the price for what was done TO me.

Not a single person ANYWHERE gets to decide if my situation was a "sin".  If anyone here wants to force a rape victim to carry a child to term, then YOU are part of the problem IMO.


and now I'm all pissed off.    I'm so sick of religious bullshit being pandered to the masses like it's the be all end all. 

 No words, just hugs

[Jaguar]

May 11, 2015 15:43:49 GMT -5 CarolinaKat said:

May 11, 2015 15:37:48 GMT -5 steff said:

I didn't "sin" by having an abortion....my RAPIST "sinned" when he raped me.  IMO I won't be paying the price for what was done TO me.

Not a single person ANYWHERE gets to decide if my situation was a "sin".  If anyone here wants to force a rape victim to carry a child to term, then YOU are part of the problem IMO.


and now I'm all pissed off.    I'm so sick of religious bullshit being pandered to the masses like it's the be all end all. 

 No words, just hugs

From me as well.

[Jaguar]

Okay can we keep the attacks and sniping down or else this thread gets moved to Religious Discussion. Don't make me come in here with my broomstick, okay.


Sugilite, EE Moderator

[billisonboard]

May 11, 2015 15:55:35 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Okay can we keep the attacks and sniping down or else this thread gets moved to Religious Discussion. Don't make me come in here with my broomstick, okay.


Sugilite, EE Moderator

so if you move it to the Religious Discussion board we can attack and snipe to our heart's content, just like we were a real church congregation?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Thanks Heavens!  LOL!

[Jaguar]

May 11, 2015 16:02:11 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 11, 2015 15:55:35 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Okay can we keep the attacks and sniping down or else this thread gets moved to Religious Discussion. Don't make me come in here with my broomstick, okay.


Sugilite, EE Moderator

so if you move it to the Religious Discussion board we can attack and snipe to our heart's content, just like we were a real church congregation?

NO you cannot attack and snipe, the rules are even more stringent there.

[billisonboard]

May 11, 2015 15:02:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

... I'm confused. Who benefits from this?   Couldn't a Catholic woman (or man) simply go to Confession and 'confess' to their local priest that they had an abortion (or facilitated one) - say their prescribed Hail Marys/Our Fathers and be done with it? ...

Official Catholic doctrine places abortion in a special class of sins that leads to excommunication, a banishment from the life of the church that is considered one of its most serious punishments. Usually, only bishops or the Pope can offer forgiveness for these types of sins. www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/08/pope-francis-abortions_n_7244630.html

[Tiny]

May 11, 2015 16:10:36 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

May 11, 2015 15:02:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

... I'm confused. Who benefits from this?   Couldn't a Catholic woman (or man) simply go to Confession and 'confess' to their local priest that they had an abortion (or facilitated one) - say their prescribed Hail Marys/Our Fathers and be done with it? ...

Official Catholic doctrine places abortion in a special class of sins that leads to excommunication, a banishment from the life of the church that is considered one of its most serious punishments. Usually, only bishops or the Pope can offer forgiveness for these types of sins. www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/08/pope-francis-abortions_n_7244630.html

Thanks. I was too lazy to google...

[weltschmerz]

May 11, 2015 15:55:35 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

Okay can we keep the attacks and sniping down or else this thread gets moved to Religious Discussion. Don't make me come in here with my broomstick, okay.


Sugilite, EE Moderator

Can you please point out the sniping and attacks?

[weltschmerz]

So you did it anyway? That wasn't very nice, especially in light of the fact that the thread was remarkably civil.

Why did you send it to the graveyard?

[Opti]

May 11, 2015 14:52:40 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I am a very left-leaning pro-choice catholic ( NancysSummerSip lands on me when she topples over   ) and I totally see how this action by the pope would help many conflicted women who at one time actully had an abortion.  And why he can't just grant community-wide forgiviness (sp?) for abortions.  For a sin to be forgiven you need to confess that you commited said sin.

I realize this is likely a Catholic dogma issue, but for a sin to be forgiven biblically confession isn't necessary. I was taught God sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to forgive all our sins, all people, those alive, dead and not yet born.

[Value Buy]

May 11, 2015 17:26:26 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

So you did it anyway? That wasn't very nice, especially in light of the fact that the thread was remarkably civil.

Why did you send it to the graveyard?

Quite honestly it happened because the mods like many posters here are.............towards religion and religious beliefs.













fill in the blank to your own satisfaction

[weltschmerz]

May 11, 2015 17:57:08 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

May 11, 2015 17:26:26 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

So you did it anyway? That wasn't very nice, especially in light of the fact that the thread was remarkably civil.

Why did you send it to the graveyard?

Quite honestly it happened because the mods like many posters here are.............towards religion and religious beliefs.













fill in the blank to your own satisfaction

She said "Knock it off or I'll move it!" and then immediately moved it. That sucked.

[Value Buy]

May 11, 2015 18:03:37 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 11, 2015 17:57:08 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Quite honestly it happened because the mods like many posters here are.............towards religion and religious beliefs.













fill in the blank to your own satisfaction

She said "Knock it off or I'll move it!" and then immediately moved it. That sucked.

Have to agree, but that is the sop here

[Opti]

May 11, 2015 15:37:48 GMT -5 steff said:

I didn't "sin" by having an abortion....my RAPIST "sinned" when he raped me.  IMO I won't be paying the price for what was done TO me.

Not a single person ANYWHERE gets to decide if my situation was a "sin".  If anyone here wants to force a rape victim to carry a child to term, then YOU are part of the problem IMO.


and now I'm all pissed off.    I'm so sick of religious bullshit being pandered to the masses like it's the be all end all. 

I'm so sorry Steff. You probably understand how I felt when one of the links I read because of this thread, pulled up a story about a nine year old who was raped by her step father and was pregnant with twins. The mother and doctor were excommunicated because of the abortion. The stepfather probably nothing although IMO he's the cause.

[Deleted]

May 11, 2015 14:37:16 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

May 11, 2015 14:30:21 GMT -5 Opti said:

pregnancy does not equal start of human life. It may for you but it is not a universal definition. Some define it when the soul joins with the body, etc.

That's an interesting idea - I'm curious to know more.  When do you (or they) feel the soul joins the human body?

Since I don't know that souls exist... I'd have to say "never" (at least until someone proves their existence... then we can figure out exactly when that sucker becomes manifest).

[Deleted]

May 11, 2015 15:48:35 GMT -5 Jaguar said:

May 11, 2015 15:43:49 GMT -5 CarolinaKat said:

May 11, 2015 15:37:48 GMT -5 steff said:

I didn't "sin" by having an abortion....my RAPIST "sinned" when he raped me.  IMO I won't be paying the price for what was done TO me.

Not a single person ANYWHERE gets to decide if my situation was a "sin".  If anyone here wants to force a rape victim to carry a child to term, then YOU are part of the problem IMO.


and now I'm all pissed off.    I'm so sick of religious bullshit being pandered to the masses like it's the be all end all. 

 No words, just hugs

From me as well.

Me too.

[resolution]

May 11, 2015 17:47:32 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 11, 2015 14:52:40 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

I am a very left-leaning pro-choice catholic ( NancysSummerSip lands on me when she topples over   ) and I totally see how this action by the pope would help many conflicted women who at one time actully had an abortion.  And why he can't just grant community-wide forgiviness (sp?) for abortions.  For a sin to be forgiven you need to confess that you commited said sin.

I realize this is likely a Catholic dogma issue, but for a sin to be forgiven biblically confession isn't necessary. I was taught God sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to forgive all our sins, all people, those alive, dead and not yet born.

There is actually a lot of Biblical support for the sacrament of reconciliation. Since this is now in the religion section I am assuming it is ok to use a Bible verse.

John 20:21-23:

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

II Cor. 2:10:

And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ (DRV).

James 5:14-17:

Is any one among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain… and… it did not rain…

[Opti]

May 11, 2015 18:29:15 GMT -5 resolution said:

May 11, 2015 17:47:32 GMT -5 Opti said:

I realize this is likely a Catholic dogma issue, but for a sin to be forgiven biblically confession isn't necessary. I was taught God sent his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross to forgive all our sins, all people, those alive, dead and not yet born.

There is actually a lot of Biblical support for the sacrament of reconciliation. Since this is now in the religion section I am assuming it is ok to use a Bible verse.

John 20:21-23:

Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

II Cor. 2:10:

And to whom you have pardoned anything, I also. For, what I have pardoned, if I have pardoned anything, for your sakes have I done it in the person of Christ (DRV).

James 5:14-17:

Is any one among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain… and… it did not rain…

Resolution, thanks for your post. Its is my belief that sins do not need to be confessed to a priest or agent of the church to be forgiven. Using priests to forgive sins and requiring confession to priests to forgive sins are two different things to me. I agree with you the former has biblical basis.