Cautionary tale for the guns everywhere no training folks

[EVT1]

Looking at you KS and other states contemplating 'Constitutional carry' laws.  And looking at you other folks that think more guns is a solution.

abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-officer-responding-home-invasion-shoots-homeowner-30884679

This is the nexus of police unable to identify who the 'good guy with a gun' and the 'bad guy with a gun' is, and the lack of training of the gun owner on what to do when the police show up and you are armed.

     A sheriff's deputy responding to a home invasion shot the homeowner in the neck Thursday because he refused to drop his gun, authorities said.  The man was either leaving or standing at the back door of the house and was armed, Watson said. One of the two deputies shot him after he refused to drop his gun, he said.

     After he was shot and had been placed in an ambulance, the man told police that he had exchanged gunfire with the two men who fled on bicycles. By Thursday afternoon, police had arrested one of them, identified as Thomas Zachary Brown, 22. Brown was charged with first-degree burglary and attempted murder in connection with the home invasion.

Just imagine what will happen in the local KS bar when shots ring out and everyone draws their piece and starts pointing it at everyone else- then the cops come through the door   Will look like a Tarantino movie.

[happyhoix]

A lot of police organizations are against having civilians carrying weapons around for just this reason.

You go into a chaotic building where you know a shooter is firing on people, how do you know which shooter is the bad one?  You don't, so you shoot them all and sort it out later.

That and the problem of civilians not being trained in avoiding accidentally shooting people in crossfire incidents. Police won't generally shoot into crowded rooms, but untrained people might, upping the death toll.

[Shooby]

Of course they are "against it". Too bad. We have the right to bear arms.

[OldCoyote]

Ok,  What is the solution here?  Take all guns away from home owners? 

The police watched the bad guys petal off on bicycles,  but did not go after them?   Just much time was there between drop the gun,  shots were fired?    If it was said in the first place.

Police lie all the time.  We discussed that where the police officer shot the guy running away ,planted the tazer while the other rendered medical aid which he did not. 

Here are a couple news reports,    This is only one police officer.  In ten years shot seven killing six,  It was to a point where he was shooting a fifty year old grandfather holding his one year old grandson. 

e

www.azcentral.com/community/scottsdale/articles/20130604scottsdale-settle-police-shooting-suit-abrk.html


jimfishertruecrime.blogspot.com/2012/02/officer-james-peters-scottsdales-dirty.html


www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/2007057-Ariz-cops-sixth-shooting-raises-eyebrows/  

Even PoliceOne question the sixth shooting ,  Scottsdale kept him on to shoot the grandfather holding the baby for victim number seven.

By the way, James Peters is still walking the streets,on a medical retirement,  yeaaa, I bet he is carrying a gun.

 

[happyhoix]

Ok, What is the solution here? Take all guns away from home owners?

Nope. But anyone who carries a gun and uses it against criminals has to be aware that he may look like a criminal when the cops show up. He needs to drop the gun and get down on the ground until the police understand the situation, or he needs to accept that he might get shot in the heat of the moment, because he's mistaken for a criminal.

I haven't taken a gun safety course, but I imagine in those courses they explain how to behave in a manner to avoid getting shot when the police show up. At least I hope they do.

[Deleted]

May 7, 2015 22:19:51 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Looking at you KS and other states contemplating 'Constitutional carry' laws.  And looking at you other folks that think more guns is a solution.

abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-officer-responding-home-invasion-shoots-homeowner-30884679

This is the nexus of police unable to identify who the 'good guy with a gun' and the 'bad guy with a gun' is, and the lack of training of the gun owner on what to do when the police show up and you are armed.

     A sheriff's deputy responding to a home invasion shot the homeowner in the neck Thursday because he refused to drop his gun, authorities said.  The man was either leaving or standing at the back door of the house and was armed, Watson said. One of the two deputies shot him after he refused to drop his gun, he said.

     After he was shot and had been placed in an ambulance, the man told police that he had exchanged gunfire with the two men who fled on bicycles. By Thursday afternoon, police had arrested one of them, identified as Thomas Zachary Brown, 22. Brown was charged with first-degree burglary and attempted murder in connection with the home invasion.

Just imagine what will happen in the local KS bar when shots ring out and everyone draws their piece and starts pointing it at everyone else- then the cops come through the door   Will look like a Tarantino movie.

Constitutional carry should be the law in all 50 states. No exceptions.

[EVT1]

May 8, 2015 10:36:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Ok, What is the solution here? Take all guns away from home owners?

Nope. But anyone who carries a gun and uses it against criminals has to be aware that he may look like a criminal when the cops show up. He needs to drop the gun and get down on the ground until the police understand the situation, or he needs to accept that he might get shot in the heat of the moment, because he's mistaken for a criminal.

I haven't taken a gun safety course, but I imagine in those courses they explain how to behave in a manner to avoid getting shot when the police show up. At least I hope they do.

My point exactly- the idiots in KS pretty much repealed the training requirement for concealed carry and other states wish to follow- very bad idea.

If a homeowner does the wrong thing and gets shot by police- I could care less.  But when these people bring their guns in public there should be some expectations that they know the law and how to carry safely instead of putting other people at risk. Don't think that is asking too much- but apparently it is to the NRA.

[Deleted]

May 8, 2015 13:57:41 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

May 8, 2015 10:36:50 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Nope. But anyone who carries a gun and uses it against criminals has to be aware that he may look like a criminal when the cops show up. He needs to drop the gun and get down on the ground until the police understand the situation, or he needs to accept that he might get shot in the heat of the moment, because he's mistaken for a criminal.

I haven't taken a gun safety course, but I imagine in those courses they explain how to behave in a manner to avoid getting shot when the police show up. At least I hope they do.

My point exactly- the idiots in KS pretty much repealed the training requirement for concealed carry and other states wish to follow- very bad idea.

If a homeowner does the wrong thing and gets shot by police- I could care less.  But when these people bring their guns in public there should be some expectations that they know the law and how to carry safely instead of putting other people at risk. Don't think that is asking too much- but apparently it is to the NRA.

To the NRA, it's just the next step to total firearm freedom. Kind of like expanding the background checks restrictions or magazine limits at the other end of the argument. I wouldn't read to much into this next step. Do you prefer cops running amuck because the subjects are unarmed ? Like a fox in the henhouse ? Maybe the next time a cop pulls his gun on an armed home owner, he's the one that buys it. Life goes on. For some it's sheeplike, for others it's foxlike. It's the people, not the tool.

[EVT1]

Thinking about it isn't it pretty much American cops that are running amok? Perhaps it is because there are so many guns and they carry that fear with them with every stop. I remember reading it was Germany I think where they fired like 3 shots for the entire year.

Are they just that much more professional or what?

[Deleted]

Simple concept. If you have done nothing wrong, you lower your weapon when told to do so by a cop. EVEN IN YOUR OWN HOME.

In your own home:
Then as you slowly bend down to place the weapon on the ground, you explain "Officer, this is my house, and this is my gun. My ID is {wherever the ID is}, and your partner may check it while you have me covered." (then put your hands on your head or lie on the ground... whichever the cop prefers)


Out in public (during a "situation"):
Then as you slowly bend down to place the weapon on the ground, you explain "Officer, this is my gun. I have a concealed carry permit. It's {wherever the CCP is}, and your partner may check it while you have me covered. I'll be happy to wait here, in cuffs if needed, while you verify my part in what happened." (then put your hands on your head or lie on the ground... whichever the cop prefers)

[EVT1]

So are you good with that piece of advice? We print your message and hand it out with every gun sale?

[Deleted]

May 8, 2015 19:00:50 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Thinking about it isn't it pretty much American cops that are running amok? Perhaps it is because there are so many guns and they carry that fear with them with every stop. I remember reading it was Germany I think where they fired like 3 shots for the entire year.

Are they just that much more professional or what?

I don't know. Maybe having the snot kicked out of them during the last two world wars makes them a little meeker these days. I think it was Sweden that assigns a gun to every household along with training how to use it. Don't they have the lowest, or at least one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world ?

[weltschmerz]

May 14, 2015 10:59:28 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

May 8, 2015 19:00:50 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Thinking about it isn't it pretty much American cops that are running amok? Perhaps it is because there are so many guns and they carry that fear with them with every stop. I remember reading it was Germany I think where they fired like 3 shots for the entire year.

Are they just that much more professional or what?

I don't know. Maybe having the snot kicked out of them during the last two world wars makes them a little meeker these days. I think it was Sweden that assigns a gun to every household along with training how to use it. Don't they have the lowest, or at least one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world ?

Really? Sweden? Every household? I do wish people would do a little research before repeating this meme.

www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

[weltschmerz]

Military-aged men keep their military-issued guns at home. Every household is not "given a gun."

I can't tell you how many times I've heard this nonsense.

Notoriously neutral Switzerland has a lot of firearms, putting it in third place with roughly 46 guns per 100 people. Gun ownership is tied closely to Switzerland’s national security, as military service is compulsory for men and soldiers are issued rifles to keep at home. As a result, essentially every military-aged man possesses a gun. Swiss photographers Denis Balibouse and Ruben Sprich snapped photographs from their homeland, recalling their personal relationships with firearms. However, a recent policy initiative has changed the immediate availability of these weapons. In 2007, Switzerland passed legislation dictating that military ammunition be stored apart from firearms. Now all army ammunition is kept in central arsenals outside of the home.

blogs.reuters.com/events/2013/04/12/gun-culture/

[Deleted]

May 8, 2015 23:13:43 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So are you good with that piece of advice? We print your message and hand it out with every gun sale?

Yup. I'm good with that advice.

Gun ownership comes with responsibilities... One of them is knowing when NOT to be brandishing it and/or when to lower it.

[EVT1]

May 14, 2015 18:23:42 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

May 8, 2015 23:13:43 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

So are you good with that piece of advice? We print your message and hand it out with every gun sale?

Yup. I'm good with that advice.

Gun ownership comes with responsibilities... One of them is knowing when NOT to be brandishing it and/or when to lower it.

What about the carry permit which requires some training and instruction on the law- which the NRA is trying to get rid of- do you think that is a good idea?

I really think anyone that is going to be allowed to go armed in public should meet a minimum standard and I think a huge majority  agrees on it except the NRA- even though their own members do- if anything that is proof the NRA is all about gun sales and not much else.  Pretty much the reason I cancelled my membership over a decade ago.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2015 21:30:41 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

May 14, 2015 18:23:42 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

Yup. I'm good with that advice.

Gun ownership comes with responsibilities... One of them is knowing when NOT to be brandishing it and/or when to lower it.

What about the carry permit which requires some training and instruction on the law- which the NRA is trying to get rid of- do you think that is a good idea?

I really think anyone that is going to be allowed to go armed in public should meet a minimum standard and I think a huge majority  agrees on it except the NRA- even though their own members do- if anything that is proof the NRA is all about gun sales and not much else.  Pretty much the reason I cancelled my membership over a decade ago.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting that little bit of advice be ALL a gun owner gets... Training and instruction in the law is good as well.

[Deleted]

May 14, 2015 12:43:42 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 14, 2015 10:59:28 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I don't know. Maybe having the snot kicked out of them during the last two world wars makes them a little meeker these days. I think it was Sweden that assigns a gun to every household along with training how to use it. Don't they have the lowest, or at least one of the lowest rates of gun crime in the world ?

Really? Sweden? Every household? I do wish people would do a little research before repeating this meme.

www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

I wish people would learn elementary level geography.  Sweden and Switzerland are two different countries.  Check snopes on this you'll find it's true.    (mmhmm should read up too)  After that little tidbit of geography information has been absorbed, here is what I was thinking about in regards to Sweden.  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Guard_(Sweden)

[weltschmerz]

May 15, 2015 10:44:24 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

May 14, 2015 12:43:42 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Really? Sweden? Every household? I do wish people would do a little research before repeating this meme.

www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

I wish people would learn elementary geography.  Sweden and Switzerland are two different countries.  Check snopes on this you'll find it's true.    (mmhmm should read up too) 

I know, eh? When the subject of gun control comes up, someone inevitably points out that the Swiss give "every household a gun." Not only are they wrong, but the poster got the country wrong.

The Swedes, on the other hand, have extremely strict gun control.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2015 10:54:56 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 15, 2015 10:44:24 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I wish people would learn elementary geography.  Sweden and Switzerland are two different countries.  Check snopes on this you'll find it's true.    (mmhmm should read up too) 

I know, eh? When the subject of gun control comes up, someone inevitably points out that the Swiss give "every household a gun." Not only are they wrong, but the poster got the country wrong.

The Swedes, on the other hand, have extremely strict gun control.

I added a link for the thing I was trying to remember about Sweden. It was about the Home guard. I already put the link into reply #18 My error in regards to every household over there. I must of also seen the Switzerland story somewhere.

[weltschmerz]

In any case, neither Sweden nor Switzerland "gives every household a gun", but someone inevitably brings up the claim as true.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2015 11:30:49 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

In any case, neither Sweden nor Switzerland "gives every household a gun", but someone inevitably brings up the claim as true.

I hear Canada is going to start loosening up the gun control in response to terrorist activity.   The police can't be everywhere and people have families to protect.     

[weltschmerz]

May 15, 2015 11:45:24 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

May 15, 2015 11:30:49 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

In any case, neither Sweden nor Switzerland "gives every household a gun", but someone inevitably brings up the claim as true.

I hear Canada is going to start loosening up the gun control in response to terrorist activity.   The police can't be everywhere and people have families to protect.     

Many households have rifles and shotguns to protect their families. We do a lot of hunting.

What we don't need is citizens going off half-cocked and bringing handguns to church, schools, hospitals and Walmart.

The Conservative government is on its way out.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2015 12:02:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 15, 2015 11:45:24 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I hear Canada is going to start loosening up the gun control in response to terrorist activity.   The police can't be everywhere and people have families to protect.     

Many households have rifles and shotguns to protect their families. We do a lot of hunting.

What we don't need is citizens going off half-cocked and bringing handguns to church, schools, hospitals and Walmart.

The Conservative government is on its way out.

So "half-cocked citizens" carrying handguns = conservatives ?

[weltschmerz]

Conservatives want to loosen gun laws. Won't happen.

[Deleted]

May 15, 2015 12:02:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

May 15, 2015 11:45:24 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

I hear Canada is going to start loosening up the gun control in response to terrorist activity.   The police can't be everywhere and people have families to protect.     

Many households have rifles and shotguns to protect their families. We do a lot of hunting.

What we don't need is citizens going off half-cocked and bringing handguns to church, schools, hospitals and Walmart.

The Conservative government is on its way out.

Maybe I could word my question in reply #24 differently, as you seemed to answer something in #25 that was not asked.  You don't believe that a person has a right to protect himself  away from his home with a small easy to carry firearm, as in the types of places you listed above or similar ?  Is there no crime taking place in Canada, in the venues listed ?

[weltschmerz]

We aren't the US. It's ridiculous.

I live in a city of many millions, and the homicide rate is usually about 30 a year, and most often a settling of accounts. I suspect if we legalized hand guns, there would be many, many more deaths.

The idea of bringing a gun to church, grocery store or to an elementary school talent show is beyond absurd.