Moving overseas?

[k2stew]

My wife and I are considering making the move overseas. She was born in London and raised in Norway and would like to go back.

Im working on getting my work to transfer me to another entity but were not sure if its going to work out yet.

Has anyone else done this? We would keep our house as a rental (we have a few already). I'm not sure if you sell off all the other junk (cars etc.) or store it.

We don't know exactly where we would end up, likely England and for an unknown amount of time.

Also what hidden expenses can we expect to incur?

[Jake 48]

k2, my oldest son lives in Spain courtesy of the US Navy.Before he left I suggested he get rid of everything that he could, he did not sell his car before leaving and now it is like a cinder block around his neck, has a small loan on it and has to keep it insured. his mom drives it occasionally so it does get some use, if not for her he would be screwed completely. So unless the car is a classic and can be stored properly, I vote for getting rid of them. good luck!

[debtheaven]

I live overseas but I have done for many years (my ex H is French). I moved over as a "local" (ie not via a job) so I can't give you concrete advice on things like taxes, but here are some things you need to consider.

Many things (even most things) are more expensive here. Taxes, food, gas, utilities. Other things (like education) are cheaper.

It will make a HUGE difference whether you get relocated or not. If you are, your company will pay your moving fees, and they will pay you a commensurate salary. They will pay school fees for any kids you may have, and probably a very generous housing allowance.

If you have the choice, I would definitely suggest getting transferred rather than deciding to move over on your own. But, if you are heck-bent on moving here one way or the other, obviously, it is possible.

I'm also hoping that by posting this it will BUMP this thread so Bonnap will see it and post here too. She and her DH relocated to Germany two years ago so she can give you invaluable advice.

Best of luck to you!

[debtheaven]

ETA: London is CRAZY expensive. (My DH is from London).

Whether you go through your current employers or not, I would think you should have a firm offer to move to a very HCOLA in Europe, or decide that you want this badly enough to be poor for a while.

But I don't know what you do at all. Obviously that needs to be taken into account too. You do, so you have at least an idea of how long it would take you to be hired. I also don't know how much money you have in the bank. Again, you do, LOL.

And I freely admit I have no clue whatsoever about the job market in Norway LOL.

ETA: You will probably want a travel allowance ... if your families are in the US, you will want to visit them, and to help them visit you (even if that means having an extra bedroom to use as a guest room.) And once you have kids, the distance will feel greater. You'll have to just trust me on that.

[patchwork150]

I hope Bonnap can post too- DH and I am in a similar situation. I am very seriously considering going to Germany to finish veterinary school (500 euros a semester, and I have that much saved NOW, almost at a bachelors degree) I have family in germany, and am looking at my options right now. I'm predicting wanting to stay there 10 years. I am taking a German course right now, I think it's doable. I'd love to also hear advice!

[robbase]

k2, my oldest son lives in Spain courtesy of the US Navy.Before he left I suggested he get rid of everything that he could, he did not sell his car before leaving and now it is like a cinder block around his neck, has a small loan on it and has to keep it insured.

not necessarily true, the military will pay to ship most of your stuff, weight restrictions dependent on rank

[debtheaven]

Wow Patchwork! It would be a HUGE savings, for sure! But if you eventually plan to move back to the US, you need to ensure that you would have the equivalency and the degree.

But, as of now, as far as I know, there is no automatic equivalency between Europe and the US. I could be wrong of course, I hope I am. But PLEASE, be careful.

The laws on education are definitely moving targets. I have a close Mexican friend who is still crying her eyes out because her DD (in med school in Mexico) did everything she could to transfer to Spain, then Spain changed the laws / requirements at the last minute. Her DD is doing great, she is trilingual and doing her internships in top NE hospitals. But, that is not what my friend banked on when she sent her DD to Mexico assuming she would transfer to Spain and get EU status.

You do need to keep all of this in mind, and be VERY proactive about keeping abreast of any changes.

[k2stew]

Thank for all the info, we have been working to get ourselves with as little "consumer" debt as possible. We paid off our cars and everything, all thats left is 3 houses and some SLs (haha thats all...)

I work in the oil and gas field so really it could be anywhere from Europe, India, Africa, Brazil, SE Asia etc.

We are adventurous in that way so we open to just about anything, we are just not sure what to expect in general.

I am hoping to get my company to transfer me, but I would be open to moving companies if the situation was right.

[wodehouse]

My cousin's widow moved back to Norway after his death. No more than two years later she and the kids were all back in the sunny Southwestern US.

[Urban Chicago]

Just one suggestion note: lots of places in Europe have different definitions of "furnished" or "remodeled" for many apartments and such. My cousin moved into a furnished place and discovered that did not include kitchen appliances, cabinets, or a sink in the bathroom. Not a huge problem, but an expense she had not anticipated.

[NastyWoman]

As a tag-along spouse for many years I would say try to make sure that the new place has opportunities for both of you to do something you enjoy. It can get really lonely and boring otherwise

[Deleted]

Bonnap here. Patchwork, feel free to PM me if you have some questions about Germany. There's also a terrific English speaking website at www.Toytowngermany.com. I found it really helpful before we moved to Bonn as to what areas we should consider moving to. I made two friends over the web so between them and DH's colleagues I already had a support system in place.

I have a confession to make. I saw this thread shortly after it was posted and thought it was too vague to give a really good answer. Every county is different and even within the EU rules and customs are different. It would be helpful if the O.P. could post age and whether children are a factor.

My comments are based on our experience here in Germany. DH does work for a world wide company so we have many friends who are/were Ex Pats. We did turn down an assignment to Brussels about 10 years ago and DH basically has a standing offer to move to Kuala Lumper in Malaysia which we have never taken seriously.

The big issues are getting a work permit, taxes, housing and schools. You need to do your homework.

Because of our ages 49 & 52 and our financial situation we would have never made the move here if it wasn't company sponsored. We have considerable assets and could have retired had DH not been offered a job. Taking the job meant DH could keep pulling a good salary and putting away more for retirement. I wanted to go because of the relative ease of visiting other parts of Europe. I also thought it would be interesting to try to learn another language (I can speak some French).

Because our move was handled by the company, work permits were not an issue. I even believe as a trailing spouse I could have obtained a work permit if I wanted (and could find) a job. Work permits are a big deal here, difficult to get and very employer specific. I definitely would not move to Europe on a lark thinking you could find something. Even in Germany where the economic recovery is relatively strong unemployment is an issue. And as an American you are not covered by EU convention so you would be lumped in with every other immigrant in the world. If you're a student with an independent income working Schwartzarbeit (under the table) tutoring folks is fairly common but it's not sustainable. As Debt pointed out, living in Europe is pretty expensive. Between VAT at around 19% and the low exchange rate (it takes about $1.30 to buy a Euro) living costs can be close to 50% more. And I haven't even talked about income tax!

We are very lucky and have a decent ex Pat package. The company paid for our move to Germany and will pay to move us back. We get a cost of living allowance (I think it's around 10% of DH's salary), a small housing stipend (E650 and our rent is about E2200), a company car and gas, and an annual trip home for both of us. Perhaps most importantly the company tax "equalizes" DH's salary. That means DH makes about the same net as he did in the States. Given that we would possibly get taxed on our world wide income at Germany's top tax tier of 46% (many other EU countries are similar) not being tax equalized would be a deal breaker for us.

The company also pays KPMG to prepare our tax returns. This is also a significant benefit. Many countries have a tax treaty with the US to avoid double taxation. It can get pretty complicated when one has significant assets remaining in your home country (like we do). It sounds like the OP may be in a similar situation. And complicated = expensive. Our California tax return was 218 pages. Our German tax return was even bigger, filling a 3" binder. I hate to think how expensive that was to prepare!

Families do well by the company. Not only is private schooling paid for but the housing allowance is also quite a bit more. As an example DH's colleague gets about a $2500 allowance vs our approximate $1000. I know of some ex Pats who actually keep their family home vacant and furnished while they live overseas so they can return "home" for the summer.

Interestingly enough, despite the higher costs of living here we actually have been saving quite a bit. A big savings is that we don't go out to dinner nearly as often as we did in the States. Also not driving a second car is a big savings. As it is, because of where we live, we don't even use the company car a lot. DH walks to and from work and other than a weekly shopping trip and dropping off my German tutor, I walk almost every where or take public transit.

I need to head off to give an English lesson but I'll add to this post later.

[kccini9]

Mar 8, 2011 21:15:43 GMT -5 @robbase said:

k2, my oldest son lives in Spain courtesy of the US Navy.Before he left I suggested he get rid of everything that he could, he did not sell his car before leaving and now it is like a cinder block around his neck, has a small loan on it and has to keep it insured.

not necessarily true, the military will pay to ship most of your stuff, weight restrictions dependent on rank

No always true. We are in Okinawa. We weren't allowed to bring any vehicles and only allowed around 5,000 pounds. Most of our furniture was sold or put in storage. We sold one vehicle, the other is at DH's parents. We are using some gov't furniture, but brought our mattresses and bought our own couch.

Most everyone here drives older cars. Both are vehicles are 15 years old, but we paid cash for them. Most everyone too uses gov't furniture. It's not too pretty, but who can afford to buy new stuff.

[Deleted]

I agree with the poster who said to sell your cars. We didn't because our cars were fairly new, we planned to return to the States within 3 years and since we would be retired we wouldn't have the income to buy two new replacement cars. We thought about bringing my husband's car but keep in mind there are differences between safety requirements for the US and Europe. Depending on age and type of car the retro fit can cost between a few hundred to a couple of thousand dollars. We were grateful for the company car so we didn't have to go through that hassle! But even keeping the cars is a bit of a hassle. We moved from AZ (greater Phoenix area). Renewing the registration is a PAIN! We have the two cars parked with our parents (San Diego and Portland OR) but continue to be registered in Phoenix. It's really a pain to get the cars smogged out of state and handle the paperwork with the department of motor vehicles. They have to stay registered in AZ because of how we hold our Umbrella insurance policy to cover liability for our rental houses...

Whoever said the more stuff you own, the more it owns you was right!

Landlording hasn't been that hard as I have a good handyman at each location (we have 5 rental properties) and I can pay most bills via bill pay. Communication with the tenants is a little more difficult with an 8 or 9 hour time difference but e-mail works well most of the time. My annual trip home is spent visiting each house and doing my usual fix up and repair work. But putting a "for rent" ad in Craig's list takes some real coordination!

Make sure you understand the customs and expectations when you rent. Here in Germany it's fairly common that a house (and many apartments) have no kitchen. So that means the tenant is responsible for everything from the kitchen sink to kitchen cabinets.

Also it's common that the tenant pays the real estate commission vs the LL which is the typical situation in the States (outside of New York City).

And finally the security deposit is 3 months of rent. So you can see how expensive it can get. Fortunately for us the company paid the real estate fee and we rented a house with a built in kitchen. But we were still responsible for 3 months of security deposit.

Anyway, sorry for the long posts. Hope the info helps.

[8 Bit WWBG]

I spent most of my childhood as an expatriate courtesy of my Dad's (non-military) job. He always negotiated a pretty good compensation package which did include things like home leave, travel allowance, and housing, and other stuff like that. Our house was rented out while we were away.

Where to begin? Being a long distance landlord can be tough. There were a few times my father had to fly to the US to deal with something. That is its own set of headaches.

I went to accredited schools, so there was no risk of credits not transferring.

Yes its VERY expensive. The last thing you want is to be in a foreign country, and not be able to DO anything. England was extremely expensive. It is what it is. Don't go if you are going to be poor.

Rules are different, and some seem crazy. Like at the time, real estate agents don't share listings. If you want to see a house, only THAT agent can show it to you. Irritating... What UC said about the different definitions of words can also cause some headaches. No sink? wow...

And yes, its not for the faint of heart to be able to pack up and leave everything, and know you aren't coming back for a while.