The richest Americans

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

The only wealth survey that is credible and worth quoting is the annual Forbes report of the wealthiest Americans.
I think it is due to come out soon.

ETA: it is interesting to note that Michael Moore is part of the problem. He is a wealthy American.

[fairlycrazy23]

Moore is a nut and a hypocrite

[workpublic]

he's a smart fat guy with all of the baggage that comes from being a fatty in school.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

It is also interesting to add up the combined net worth of the top 400 wealthy Americans. It totals to just under, or around $2 trillion.
With $14 trillion in fed debt and adding $1.4 to $1.6 trillion per year, even the most uninformed and stubborn can see that taxing the rich is not the solution to the govt debt and deficit problem. The fed would have to completely confiscated all the wealth of the richest Americans and it would not even put a miniscule ding in our debt problems.

[wodehouse]

But SF, we're only talking about 400 people here...and they probably don't even read the Money Board. I say we go for them!

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

But SF, we're only talking about 400 people here...and they probably don't even read the Money Board. I say we go for them!

I was under the impression they come here and read what the bourgeoisie are up to. Well that is what DemInMaine told me to get me over here.....

[Opti]

Fun with substitutions.

It is also interesting to add up the combined net worth of 50% of the American population. It totals to just under, or around $2 trillion.
With $14 trillion in fed debt and adding $1.4 to $1.6 trillion per year, even the most uninformed and stubborn can see that taxing this 50% of Americans is not the solution to the govt debt and deficit problem. The fed would have to completely confiscated all the wealth of 50% of the American people and it would not even put a minuscule ding in our debt problems.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=finance&action=display&thread=4467#ixzz1G1i4Eix9

So 50% of the American people's wealth + 400 wealthiest Americans wealth is roughly 4 trillion. Why do I have the feeling if I add in the other 49.X% of American's wealth we will be considerably south of 14 trillion total?

ETA: Edited for clarity

[workpublic]

even the most uninformed and stubborn can see that taxing the rich is not the solution to the govt debt and deficit problem

can they?

they can't seem to see the difference between legal and illegal immigrants, private and public sector unions.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

So 50% + 400 top earners is roughly 4 trillion. Why do I have the feeling if I add in the other 49.X% we will be considerably south of 14 trillion total

I said the top 400 wealthiest Americans, not wage earners.
Just curious, as to what source you are using, to post the 400 top wager earners are hauling in $4 trillion in annual income.
I call BS on that one.

[Opti]

Mar 8, 2011 11:48:56 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

So 50% + 400 top earners is roughly 4 trillion. Why do I have the feeling if I add in the other 49.X% we will be considerably south of 14 trillion total

I said the top 400 wealthiest Americans, not wage earners.
Just curious, as to what source you are using, to post the 400 top wager earners are hauling in $4 trillion in annual income.
I call BS on that one.

I call BS on your reading comprehension.
If A=400 wealthiest Americans=50% Americans=2 trillion
A+A= 4 trillion
Thus, 50% (Americans) + 400 of the wealthiest individuals = 4 trillion

[skubikky]

I read through the "diatribe" yet couldn't identify one well constructed factual statement. I guess Mr. Moore has latched onto the proceedings in Wisconsin and the Middle East as his raison d'être of the moment.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I call BS on your reading comprehension.
If A=400 wealthiest Americans=50% Americans=2 trillion
A+A= 4 trillion
Thus, 50% (Americans) + 400 of the wealthiest individuals = 4 trillion

You post makes no sense.

[Gardening Grandma]

Penny for your thoughts...

My thoughts are that the uber rich have become even more so over the last number of years, while the middle class has declined. I find that disturbing.

[Angel!]

It's ok Optimist, I understood you.

According to Moore the wealth of the top 400 is equal to the wealth as half of all americans combined. So, if SF is correct that the top 400's wealth = 2 trillion, then the wealth of half of all americans is equal to 2 trillion as well.

Which gives us the 4 trillion, add in the other half of americans & you must be around 6 trillion (hard to say since we don't know if moore is taking the top half, the bottom half, or taking half of the total.)

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

According to Moore the wealth of the top 400 is equal to the wealth as half of all americans combined. So, if SF is correct that the top 400's wealth = 2 trillion, then the wealth of half of all americans is equal to 2 trillion as well.
Which gives us the 4 trillion, add in the other half of americans & you must be around 6 trillion (hard to say since we don't know if moore is taking the top half, the bottom half, or taking half of the total.)

As I pointed out, else where, total net worth in the US is about $60 trillion(give or take).
I dont know what the point is? Have individuals liquidate their wealth and send it in to the federal govt, to pay off the debt and eliminate the annual deficit?

[runewell]

Mar 8, 2011 12:07:31 GMT -5 Angel! said:

(hard to say since we don't know if moore is taking the top half, the bottom half, or taking half of the total.)

To offer a statistic like that, they are almost certainly using the bottom half. So the top half excluding the wealthiest 400 is probably a lot more than $2T.

[runewell]

Mar 8, 2011 12:22:33 GMT -5 Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ said:

As I pointed out, else where, total net worth in the US is about $60 trillion(give or take).

I'd like to know your source. This must include all of our companies any everything, which must be quite a bit considering that as of 2007 our unfunded SS and Medicare liabilities were $107T. If we have so much net worth, how can this be?\

www.ncpa.org/pub/ba662

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

To make up a statistic like that, they are almost certainly using the bottom half. So the top half excluding the wealthiest 400 is probably a lot more than $2T.

I'd have to check the last published Forbes list, when you start getting to even the middle of the list, like around 200th you are talking about $2 billion.
The last individuals on the last are shown as $1 billion.
Note that it takes 1000 people holding $1 billion in wealth to total $1 trillion.
One trillion is a staggering number.

[phil5185]

The top 400 have about $1.37 Tril.
The bottom 50% also have about $1.37 Tril.
And the top 50% have the remaining $47.3 Tril.

MM is twisting the numbers for sensationalism - but the fact is that 95% of the money is in the hands of the upper 50% of the work force, not the 400 and not the bottom 50%.

Not a surprise, 50% of our workforce pays zero income tax, so they probably have low (or negative) net worths. They are the people just starting out, those with student loans, high mortgages, etc - they aspire to the upper 50% in a decade or so.

And that aspiration (a result of the rich/poor gap) is the motivator that powered the US to greatness.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I'd like to know your source. This must include all of our companies any everything, which must be quite a bit considering that as of 2007 our unfunded SS and Medicare liabilities were $107T. If we have so much net worth, how can this be?\

I have something somewhere. Total net worth is everything, stock in companies, bond holdings, homes, real estate, commerical real estate, business, pension funds, endowments, blah...blah...blah....

I found the link:
articles.moneycentral.msn.com/RetirementandWills/InvestForRetirement/is-america-about-to-go-broke.aspx

Here is a cut/paste of part of the article:

The upside-down nation

There is another way to see how serious our situation is: Compare the unfunded liabilities of Social Security and Medicare with the net worth of every household in America.

According to the Federal Reserve flow-of-funds figures for year-end 2007, our collective net worth as consumers was $62.7 trillion. By the end of 2008, the same figure had fallen to $51.5 trillion. Another year of growth for Social Security and Medicare liabilities would bring total unfunded government promises to about $46 trillion. That's nearly 90% of our net worth.

If consumer net worth fell an additional $5 trillion -- the same amount it fell in the last three months of 2008 -- we'd be broke.

Yes, you read that right.

Government obligations for basic programs would exceed the net worth of every household and nonprofit organization in America.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

And that aspiration (a result of the rich/poor gap) is the motivator that powered the US to greatness.

....and interestingly enough...this same concept is powering the US to mediocrity.

[dancinmama]

Mar 8, 2011 10:36:32 GMT -5 family legacy said:

"Today just 400 Americans have the same wealth as half of all
Americans combined." Michael Moore

www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-moore/america-is-not-broke_b_832006.html

Penny for your thoughts...

I think I'd rather not spend my time reading anything that Michael Moore has written, but that's just me. I enjoy reading/listening to different points of view, but I think this guy is a whackadoo.

[runewell]

From the link SF provided:

According to the Federal Reserve flow-of-funds figures for year-end 2007, our collective net worth as consumers was $62.7 trillion.
By the end of 2008, the same figure had fallen to $51.5 trillion.
Another year of growth for Social Security and Medicare liabilities would bring total unfunded government promises to about $46 trillion.
That's nearly 90% of our net worth.
If consumer net worth fell an additional $5 trillion -- the same amount it fell in the last three months of 2008 -- we'd be broke.

I assumed that our country's net worth would have unfunded liabilities included in that number - kind of like owning a $250K house but holding a $200K mortgage, only a net worth of $50K.
But this author disagrees. If in fact we have to subtract our unfunded liabilities from this suppose net worth - which had dropped from $63 to $52 in one year, and this being over two years ago. I have to imagine we are in much worse shape now. Techincally insolvent in all likelihood.

And so I call B.S. on Savoir Faire's claim that the country's net worth is $60T, it's much much lower than that.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

I assumed that our country's net worth would have unfunded liabilities included in that number - kind of like owning a $250K house but holding a $200K mortgage, only a net worth of $50K

The govts liabilities and debt are separate from private net worth and are not netted out.
It is private investment, wages and capital that fund govt.

I do get your point that if you net everything out, both private capital and govt liabilities, the picture looks pretty grim, which is the point of the article I posted the link to.

[phil5185]

If in fact we have to subtract our unfunded liabilities from this suppose net worth

Unfunded liabilities are not the same as contracted debt. Example - if you have a $200,000 loan, that is a liability. But if you are a renter and pay $1000/m, you don't actually owe $120,000 in rent for 10 years, so you don't need a $120,000 reserve account to be a renter.

[Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ]

Unfunded liabilities are not the same as contracted debt. Example - if you have a $200,000 loan, that is a liability. But if you are a renter and pay $1000/m, you don't actually owe $120,000 in rent for 10 years, so you don't need a $120,000 reserve account to be a renter.

You would if you had a 10 year lease.

[runewell]

Mar 8, 2011 13:13:05 GMT -5 phil5185 said:

If in fact we have to subtract our unfunded liabilities from this suppose net worth

Unfunded liabilities are not the same as contracted debt. Example - if you have a $200,000 loan, that is a liability. But if you are a renter and pay $1000/m, you don't actually owe $120,000 in rent for 10 years, so you don't need a $120,000 reserve account to be a renter.

Very good point Phil, that is exactly what was going thru my head but I didn't say as much.

[runewell]

SS and medicare are extremely long "leases". With lots of "tenants".