feeling poor with a decent net worth

[Ava]

To me, personally, it's all about choices and what is important to ME, not to others.

For instance, an expensive car does nothing for me. It's just a means of transportation.

When I go to work I see several people getting out of their fancy vehicles. My car is 10 years old, paid-off and in good driving condition.

You can tell it's older, and it has some scratches and dents. Besides, it's not a luxury car; it's a Ford Focus.

But I don't mind. I don't want to spend money on a car. It's not my thing. It wouldn't make me happy. If my coworkers feel good and validated through expensive cars and SUVs, good for them. I know more or less what people make because we are paid according to a grade scale. So I know many of them are spending a lot of their resources in their car. Again, if they are happy I am happy for them. And again; not my thing. It doesn't make me feel uncomfortable that my vehicle is humble. I just don't care. And many times what we assume others are thinking about us or our car, house, clothes, etc. is mostly in our heads. Most people are so absorbed with their own thing and their cellphones that I doubt they notice. If they do, it's probably for just a fleeting second.

On the other hand, there also has to be some moderation. If you are saving, saving and saving for the future and feeling deprived now, then that's not right.

I mean, yes, you have to save for retirement. But I've recently read about a couple of deaths of people who weren't that old. Nobody can guarantee you (or me) a long life. So enjoy the present.

Just ask yourself what's important to you. For me, travelling, visiting family, reading. Some things will cost money, like travelling, but I want to do it now that I'm young enough to enjoy it. Visiting family, also very important. I value my vacation time more than my pay. I've been critized more than once for taking long vacations. But I need the time to be with the people I love. So I take it. If it costs me a job or a promotion, so be it. Other things I care about are free; like reading. I go to the library and get my books there.

I'm going to New York next month, and I have rented a room in the YMCA because hotels are too expensive. I cannot in my mind justify blowing away $500 for a two-night stay at a mediocre hotel just because it's in Manhattan. I still want to be in Manhattan, so I booked with the YMCA. But I'm seeing The Rockettes and a Broadway show, and I'm going to have dinner at a restaurant I love. It's all about making decisions and allocating resources.

So yes, save and be responsible. But don't forget to enjoy your life.

[zibazinski]

I didn't even know you could rent a room in the YMCA a. Awesome! Thanks!

[billisonboard]

Apr 3, 2015 17:00:32 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I didn't even know you could rent a room in the YMCA a. Awesome! Thanks!

It's fun to stay at the YMCA

[yogiii]

I live in a nice neighborhood in an HCOLA.  The kind where it isn't uncommon for a 16 year old to be driving a new Audi.  Yes, I'm the one with the dumb phone.  Anyway, what worries me the most about that is how it will effect my kids.  Plenty of teachable moments.

[Ava]

Apr 3, 2015 17:00:32 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I didn't even know you could rent a room in the YMCA a. Awesome! Thanks!

Yes, you can. I think it's only in New York, though.

There are two YMCA that rent rooms in Manhattan. I think there's more in the boroughs.

In Manhattan there is one near Grand Central and the second one is across Central Park.

You can book a room from them directly or look for deals in Hotels.com, Priceline, etc.

I found the cheapest price at Momondo.com

Keep in mind that the rooms are bunk beds and you don't get a private bathroom. The bathrooms are similar to the ones you'll find at a gym.

There's one per floor but they are big. You have showers and stalls.

I stayed in a place like that in Boston. We were near everything, the hotel was old but clean and I liked the experience and the price.

You don't get those prices at a regular hotel.

For instance, in Manhattan, I paid $218 all included (tax, fees) for a two night stay at the YMCA within walking distance of Times Square and Broadway.

[Ava]

Apr 3, 2015 17:20:42 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 3, 2015 17:00:32 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I didn't even know you could rent a room in the YMCA a. Awesome! Thanks!

It's fun to stay at the YMCA

Now that song is stuck in my head

[Deleted]

I think it really is about perspective and feeling secure in knowing what's most important to you. I use to work with someone that had a house built a couple years after I bought mine. Her house was larger and fancier than mine and cost more than 3 times as much as mine. Right after she bought the house she bought a luxury brand car, brand new.

Fast forward a couple of years, I remember the time I needed new tires for my car. They were a bit over $800 and she made the comment "must be nice to be able to pay cash for a set of tires". Why, yes it is. I tried to explain that it's all about choices. I didn't have the expensive house or the luxury vehicle, so I could save more and had enough disposable income to give me a few options. That's why I could pay cash for tires, the money didn't just float out of the air into my hands. We had the same base salary, so I thought it was a good comparison.

Fast forward to the present and her house was foreclosed on several years ago and the luxury car was repossessed. I'm still in my house and driving the same car that I paid off in 2008.

I had some tough times financially before the tire conversation and that's why I tried to explain to her about choices. I like lavish homes as much as the next person and I REALLY like nice cars. But I'm ok with my modest house and older car because I like what I can do with the money I don't spend on upgrading them. I think about buying a new car fairly often but at the end of the day I really don't want to pay for one yet. I actually like my little Honda, it's dependable and it's the first car I actually paid off (that's verrrry important lol).

Honestly, I try not to compare myself with other people. We all have different stories and priorities. I've been so stressed about about money before that I became unhealthy mentally and physically. If resisting the urge to buy this or that helps me avoid going back to that place, I'm more than happy to make those choices. It doesn't really matter what anyone else is doing (unless there's something I can learn from them), I have to do what makes my life peaceful.

[Ryan]

i live in an affluent area...not old money, more like parents put them through school and they are now doing very well type money (traders, lawyers, doctors, etc). If there are 10 grade schools that feed into the HS, I chose to send my kids to #5 (in terms of average income) on the list to avoid the feeling bad.

I don't think I'd feel bad necessarily but it would be a bummer for my kids. In the top 4 schools, it's the type of situation where 70% of the class goes on vacations over Christmas and spring break, then spends a lot of the summer at their cottage. I just wouldn't want a situation where my kids (and then me) feel left out because we aren't taking multiple vacations per year.

[Ryan]

On the topic of cars, I don't really care about that stuff at all so it wouldn't bother me.

[Lizard Queen]

I still like my little Civic.  The minivan, not so much, but it's not terrible.  The Civic just doesn't physically fit my family, and it's old, so we've been looking to replace it.

Dh and I both went to really good highschools, with some rich kids, and a lot not so rich.  DH actually went to a richer school than me.  There were still kids that drove junkers, and some with the brand new sportscars, and everything in between.  DH's school I'm sure had more of the nicer cars.  The weird thing, at this school, every car in the parking lot was nicer, with several newer sportscars.  Not a junker to be seen.  Just seemed kind of surreal.  My theory is, if the kids are all driving luxury car cast offs from the parents, this is real money for the most part, not over-extended credit.  I know the area has a mixture of old money and professionals.  I thought there were a least some people of more modest means there.  We almost bought a house there, and it wasn't over our price range.  A couple people that I used to work with live in that district.  They are more affluent professionals, but the VP drove a Fusion hybrid.

It just makes me question, do we really want to live there and have our kids feel uncomfortable?  Are we really poor?  I know we're not rich.  DH's family is all significantly better off than we are (though his brother is most likely way behind us in NW).  There is something we did and are doing wrong.  We should probably just give up trying and do our own thing, which we mostly do anyway.  I mainly wanted to move there because the school is doing so well, while our district is in slow decline.  The car thing is due to our actual need for a newer one, combined with feeling we can't afford it.  We really can't afford a loan payment, which is crazy to think.  ...but, we could just pay cash... 

[Deleted]

Apr 3, 2015 20:25:38 GMT -5 Ryan said:

i live in an affluent area...not old money, more like parents put them through school and they are now doing very well type money (traders, lawyers, doctors, etc). If there are 10 grade schools that feed into the HS, I chose to send my kids to #5 (in terms of average income) on the list to avoid the feeling bad.

I don't think I'd feel bad necessarily but it would be a bummer for my kids. In the top 4 schools, it's the type of situation where 70% of the class goes on vacations over Christmas and spring break, then spends a lot of the summer at their cottage. I just wouldn't want a situation where my kids (and then me) feel left out because we aren't taking multiple vacations per year.

Hey, I accidentally bought into one of the top neighbourhoods, just for the school ranking, and had to spend far too much time explaining to my DD (12) that we weren't going to Spain over Christmas break.  It was super weird.  The median income of my old school district was higher, but we didn't have this vacation issue.  These kids are always going somewhere. 

[cronewitch]

I am low income elderly now. I have over a million invested but still feel poor in little ways I can't just spend without thinking I am up over 30K so far this year yet can't seem to just waste $60 on stuff to make chickens happy. I ordered 25 baby chicks for ISO after May 11 and he got the chicken house all fixed up for them but I want to buy fancy watering things for them, he already got auto watering stuff so I shouldn't waste money but I found things to screw into a bucket and auto refill thing and deicer on Amazon it would be fun to make them a water bucket. I am going down then the chicks come to play with them for a few days so feel like taking them presents like fancy chick food, and pads for nest boxes, maybe I will build them something like an outdoor perch they might like that. These are pet chickens so should be spoiled 22 hens and 3 roasters so we might get babies from them too. I wish I could just blow money for no good reason but I am too poor.

[Deleted]

Feeling "poor" isn't a bad state of mind even if you have a lot of assets. DH and I were just complaining about the cost of stew beef in our grocery store and last week I was all over the Internet looking for the best price on a hotel for one night in Des Moines, finally choosing to pay in advance with a non-cancellable rate and no Hilton brownie points, making sure it included breakfast. OTOH, we have about $6K worth of bills in the pipeline for a round trip from Boston to Iceland in Business Class, plus a week in a good hotel.

That's how we operate.  I like to think we have room in the budget for the big, splashy stuff once in awhile because we didn't fritter away a lot of money on the things that might have made us look more glamorous but weren't important to us.

[yogiii]

Apr 3, 2015 22:26:15 GMT -5 pooks said:

Apr 3, 2015 20:25:38 GMT -5 Ryan said:

i live in an affluent area...not old money, more like parents put them through school and they are now doing very well type money (traders, lawyers, doctors, etc). If there are 10 grade schools that feed into the HS, I chose to send my kids to #5 (in terms of average income) on the list to avoid the feeling bad.

I don't think I'd feel bad necessarily but it would be a bummer for my kids. In the top 4 schools, it's the type of situation where 70% of the class goes on vacations over Christmas and spring break, then spends a lot of the summer at their cottage. I just wouldn't want a situation where my kids (and then me) feel left out because we aren't taking multiple vacations per year.

Hey, I accidentally bought into one of the top neighbourhoods, just for the school ranking, and had to spend far too much time explaining to my DD (12) that we weren't going to Spain over Christmas break.  It was super weird.  The median income of my old school district was higher, but we didn't have this vacation issue.  These kids are always going somewhere. 

I have that too.  Most of my 4 y/o's classmates went to Aruba over winter break.  He tells me about it but doesn't quite get what that means yet.  Probably next year he will.

[Bonny]

Apr 4, 2015 10:32:38 GMT -5 @anne81 said:

Dh and I both went to really good highschools, with some rich kids, and a lot not so rich. DH actually went to a richer school than me.

My impression is that when we were in school they were a lot more mixed economically.  Now test results and resources (libraries, art, computers) are pretty highly correlated with the income of the students that feed into it.

It just makes me question, do we really want to live there and have our kids feel uncomfortable?

It's a tough question. I've really struggled with topic of wanting DS and to blend in with his fellow students (spendy private school) while appreciating what he has and understanding it's not the norm.  I read a great book recently called "Longing and Belonging" about the pressure affluent and poor parents feel to help their children belong.  They called it something like the "economy of dignity."  That you don't necessarily want an electronic device for your kid to show off but so they can participate in the playground culture and be able to share in those experiences with other kids.

DH is from an upper middle class family and went to a private school where some of the kids were delivered by chauffeurs while their parents were in Europe or Asia. He says that while he felt poor sometimes (which is no way the reality) it also gave him an appreciation that everyone has problems money can't solve. On that topic Madeline Levine has a good set of books about parenting in affluent schools and communities and some of the harsh pressures those kids face. It can be a tough environment because the parents know that the way they got to their successful place in life was a very specific set of steps - lots of education, lots of personal discipline, etc. and they put a lot of pressure on their kids to do the same thing.

We also recently moved to a much wealthier town, partly so DS would fit in better.   It is sort of surprising to see the ratio of very expensive cars to regular cars.  People look put together at the grocery store.  The conversations are different and the socializing is different.

This year we're seeing the highest rate ever of adolescent suicide on the Caltrain tracks in the Palo Alto area.

[murphath]

We live in an affluent community but it didn't start out that way when we moved here.  We couldn't afford to buy our own home these days.  Just crazy.
Our kids certainly weren't spoiled but didn't lack for what was important: school, sports activities, etc..  DD2 wanted to go to the local Catholic high school so we bit the bullet and off she went.  One day I was driving her to basketball practice and out of the blue she says, "Mom, thank you for not spoiling me.  The kids here have so much but they don't appreciate it, they expect it."  In my head I was saying, thank God we did something right.  I complimented her on her astute observation and thanked her for her comment.  We had a lovely conversation about raising kids, finding the right balance, and what is truly important in life.

You know, sometimes a long walk along our hilly trails is more fun than spending tons of money going out to eat and a movie.  Nothing wrong with either option but when I stop during a hike to look at the SF Bay, I feel real peace and contentment.

[cronewitch]

Kids can get spoiled so easily just from high expectations. My nieces son was about 9 when he wanted to know why they couldn't have a forest in the back yard like his friends. They had a home on salt waterfront so no real yard at all. He got used to being able to go walk on the beach anytime and his friends probably wanted a beach in the back yard instead of a forest. Now he is in college so understands things better, parents divorced, mom living with grandparents.

[Deleted]

I do agree that "poor" is a mentality rather than a real state for most of the middle class. There definitely is a truly poor part of our society, and I'm not talking about Welfare Moms or whatever. There are hard-working people who don't make much money. We forget this sometimes on this board.

That being said, I feel poor most of the time although I know I am blessed. We just replaced two toilets for $950. Poor people learn to live with one broken. Broken dishwasher means washing dishes by hand. Put a piece of cardboard over a broken window. You get the idea.

This board makes me feel poor most of the time.

So stop it!!!!!

[Lizard Queen]

Apr 4, 2015 17:31:09 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

I do agree that "poor" is a mentality rather than a real state for most of the middle class. There definitely is a truly poor part of our society, and I'm not talking about Welfare Moms or whatever. There are hard-working people who don't make much money. We forget this sometimes on this board.

That being said, I feel poor most of the time although I know I am blessed. We just replaced two toilets for $950. Poor people learn to live with one broken. Broken dishwasher means washing dishes by hand. Put a piece of cardboard over a broken window. You get the idea.

This board makes me feel poor most of the time.

So stop it!!!!!

Absolutely there are hard-working people who don't make much!  


This reminds me that we just got both of our bathrooms remodeled.  [Though the kitchen (except for the appliances) really does make us look poor.]  We should count our blessings.

[beergut]

Apr 3, 2015 12:39:34 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Apr 3, 2015 11:05:46 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Do you?  I wonder if feeling poor or flush has more to do with income than the balance sheet.

DH mentioned that it made him feel bad to go to the rec center and see all the high school kids driving much nicer cars.  We're 40-ish.  We could buy a nice new car for cash, but don't have nearly the income to justify it.

Would we feel richer if we had nice big incomes but no investments?

(Talk me down--feeling kind of beaten down lately.)

you've got a couple of different things going on in your post.

Feeling 'poor' or 'flush' when you actually have some financial security (meaning you aren't struggling with health issues or wondering how you'll keep the lights on and food on table while living in a hovel becuase you don't have enough income even tho you are working as best you can!) isn't about the actual money or how much you make. It's about accepting and feeling good about what you do have - ie having the things you VALUE. You have to know what you Value though to achieve this state. there's also the duality of life - you can't be everywhere and have everything. There's always trade offs.

So, the HS kids with nicer cars have made a trade off (or their parents did) they gave up something else (weather it's tangible or intangible) to have that nicer car. They may or may not be aware of this happening. a nicer car doesn't automatically equal a nicer happier life.

You might be richer (have more income) but you might not be happier - since you might be spending more than you earn and therefor worry about making ends meet at the end of the month. OR if you are on the hedonistic treadmill - you might be VERY unhappy because you can't afford the one-use disposible 14 carat goldplated dinnerware that's all the rage - happy rich people don't EVER use the same dishes/utensils twice much less eat off of anything lower quality than gold. <-- example of a general type of escalating spending - there's always something better that you DON"T have...

So, review your values, take some time to be grateful for what you DO have, re-affirm what kind of future you'd like to have, and realize that you probably are actually happy and satisified with your life.


FWIW:  i have a relatively inexpensive 3yo vehicle which I purchased new - it's a box on wheels.  It's small.   I scraped the rear fender on the side of the garage 6 months after I bought it.   I was annoyed but then I was "ok"  - it's not getting fixed.  I've customized my car.      When people give me the hairy eyeball because I probably should be driving a nicer car - I smile and think to myself I do have a "nicer luxury car" - it's just NOT a car - it's my rental property - the Condo in the Sun.    If I had bought a luxury car (which I certainly could afford) I wouldn't have been able to purchase investment property. 

I traded 2 years of super nice vacations in order to puchase a second investment property (basically I used the money I had saved for vacation for something else).  For two years I did smaller one day "outings" and inexpensive crash on a friends/relatives couch for a Night trips instead.    I'll take the bigger super nice vacations eventually.  I'm slowly replenishing my 'vacation fund'.  

I love to hear about other people's vacations.  I'm sure people shake their heads and wonder why I haven't gone anywhere exciting for a few years.  I smile and think about how much I like having the "Little Rental House"  while remembering all the fun stuff I DID do during the two years of no big vacations.     It's all about what you value.

See, there's always a trade off.   

I think you mean 'hedonic treadmill'. People on the 'hedonic treadmill' aren't obsessing about pleasure. 

Good post.

I think it comes down to what is going to make you happy, or happier. Will buying one of those name-brand luxury vehicles those HS kids are driving make you happier? Will it make you happier than watching your investments grow, and knowing you are financially secure?

Thomas Stanley does a terrific job discussing this subject in his book Stop Acting Rich..And Start Living Like A Millionaire. 

Stanley points out that a lot of the luxury vehicles we see each days are driven by people trying to 'act rich'. His research shows that the vast majority of millionaires don't drive luxury cars, that the most common make of a millionaire's car is Toyota. Luxury cars merely function as 'badges' to show that you have 'made it'. The problem is that people who aren't anywhere close to wealthy think if they 'act' wealthy, they'll eventually become wealthy, when nothing could be further from the truth. The badges aren't always cars. A brand of clothing, a brand of watch (Rolex, hello?), a brand of vodka, they all function as badges to show other people that you're 'rich'. Reality is that most wealthy people don't buy those brands, only the people Stanley calls the 'glittering rich' (celebrities, sports figures, entertainers) buy them, but most people fall for the marketing hype and think they need to buy the same things their role models do.

The OP question is about feeling 'rich', but I think you need to focus on being 'happy'. What amount in the bank would make you feel 'rich'? $1 million? $10 million? 

One other thing Stanley noted is that a 2000 study (book was published in 2009) reported that 19% of Americans thought they were in the top 1%. There is also the phenomenon of people living in HCOL neighborhoods, and believing that gave them some kind of 'status', a 'currency' that made them better than people who lived other, lower cost neighborhoods. They believed this even if the people living in a lower value home had a balance sheet and investment portfolio that absolutely dwarfed their net worth. Clearly, way too many people believe they are richer than they really are. 

[skubikky]

Apr 3, 2015 23:22:57 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Honestly I was more comfortable when we had less, we had things to strive for. Now its like hubby says if we really want it we can buy it, yet if we do, the says well I will just work a little longer.

And, you end up spending a good amount of time maintaining and repairing those material possessions.....motor home, lawn tractors, truck to plow, home, barn, driveway, lawn, garden, and the list goes on....  
It's sounds like a bit of trap.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I always remind myself that I don't know what is going on behind closed doors. Just b/c I see an Audi in the parking lot it doesn't mean that person can actually "afford" it. They may be like that guy in the commercial "How do I do it? I am in debt up to my eyeballs".

I also remind myself of several friends in HS who got fancy expensive new cars. .. then wrecked them five minutes later. The parents might be able to afford that particular Audi, but not a second and the sky high insurance that will come with it.

What I envy sometimes isn't the stuff but the apparent ability to totally ignore everything but today. For me to live like some people I know would drive me insane. I couldn't live knowing I am one paycheck away from potential ruin.

I'd love to have the faith in the notion "everything will work out" therefore I can do as I please and the universe will take care of the aftermath.

BUT I know deep down that life doesn't always work that way. I just know I'd end up being one of the people it doesn't work out for and I don't want to deal with the fall out. So I plan, I try to save, I put away money for retirement and I am a good little worker bee.

[swamp]

Apr 6, 2015 8:36:08 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

What I envy sometimes isn't the stuff but the apparent ability to totally ignore everything but today. For me to live like some people I know would drive me insane. I couldn't live knowing I am one paycheck away from potential ruin.  

[Deleted]

I went to high school in a poor, small town. My parents decided to get a 3 year old grand am as a 2nd vehicle when I was in high school, my dad walked to work so I drove it to school. It was the nicest car at the school (gives you an idea how well off the community was). The amount of jealousy was insane, I got the cold shoulder from several people and it was vandalized twice. My minutes got cut from a few to none as a junior in varsity bball as the coach drove a real POS and had snide remarks when he seen me getting out of it one day. That car was a huge mistake, my parents really couldn't even afford it at the time and all the money from my part time job went to it. That's the other side of getting something nice, if you go to a poor school. And hell it was a 3 year old friggin grand am, imagine had it actually been a nice car.

[midjd]

What I envy sometimes isn't the stuff but the apparent ability to totally ignore everything but today. For me to live like some people I know would drive me insane. I couldn't live knowing I am one paycheck away from potential ruin.

I'd love to have the faith in the notion "everything will work out" therefore I can do as I please and the universe will take care of the aftermath.

That reminds me of a post I saw on Facebook this weekend (one of my acquaintances is pregnant and an older acquaintance was bemoaning the fact that she was "done" having kids)

Acquaintance 1 said -- "You should go ahead and have another, you won't regret it. It will all work out. And your older kids can help take care of the baby!"

[mrnewengland]

I've actually had this exact thought a lot lately.  I think I have an above average net worth for my age (37yo @ $280K) but I feel as though my friends live much better lives.  In talking to a lot of them though I think they have little in retirement and a lot in housing.  That's OK... most of them live in houses that they could easily downsize from if they wanted.  

I guess it's all with what you're comfortable with.  I feel "safer" doing it my way.  

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2015 8:36:08 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

What I envy sometimes isn't the stuff but the apparent ability to totally ignore everything but today. For me to live like some people I know would drive me insane. I couldn't live knowing I am one paycheck away from potential ruin.

I'd love to have the faith in the notion "everything will work out" therefore I can do as I please and the universe will take care of the aftermath.

Ex 2.0 (and a lot of his family) are like this.  What's really crazy is it seems to be true for him!  At least so far.  Sometimes I think I'm the sucker for sacrificing and worrying so much.

[Annie7]

One more thing to consider - the kid in HS might be sharing his parent's car. We have two cars. DH takes the train to work. I work from home most days. So, when DS1 was a senior in HS, he would take the 2007 Acura RDX to school. I would drop off DH to the train station and keep the 2002 Honda Odyssey for my day. We didn't see the point in buying DS1 a car and pay insurance, etc on it when he couldn't have a car in his first year of college. He is a sophomore now and still doesn't have his own car. When he comes home on breaks we do the same thing again. DS2 will be 16 next year and he'll probably be using the Acura to learn and we might need to get DS1 a car. We might need to replace the 2002 minivan too - trying to keep it going until DS2 graduates HS in 3 years.

[svwashout]

I guess one can gauge a household's financial condition three different ways-- it could be based upon income, net worth, or outgo. If everyone maintained the same financial ratios, then we could guess the less visible factors (income and net worth) from observing spend rate. But because of differences in priorities and attitudes towards risk, this guess could be well off the mark, which I believe is the point of those exposé books about the moderately wealthy.

I don't think it makes sense to judge financial condition based on spending. Investors can debate between criteria like P/E (price/earnings) and P/B (price/book value) but no one I know considers high cash burn a good thing. Between income and net worth I think it depends upon time horizon. For younger households whose accumulation is in the future, income rules-- for example a fresh med school grad could be looking at a negative six figure net worth. But for those who reach retirement age with high income and no assets, it's the shortfall in the latter that matters. Those in the middle I'd say can use the formula described by Dr. Stanley in "millionaire next door" as a reasonable guide.

I'm near the end of my working years so the metric that I think makes sense is a ratio-- it's investment net worth divided by annual expense rate (net of social security and pension income). If this ratio is over 30 years, you are in good financial shape to retire. The value of one's primary home or car doesn't factor into my view at all. Even though I've lived in California for decades, it's not the car culture that drew me here-- I purchased my current car (used) for 0.1% of my net investment portfolio value. Where I work a pretty reliable indicator for high net worth is a senior level engineer or manager who drives a beater. It's harder to tell among those who always drive fancy new wheels, some are no doubt well-off, but others in the lower-income tiers, probably not.

[swamp]

My dad can't sit still either. He was busier in retirement than working. Everyone needs a small job handyman who gets work done for a reasonable price. He could work at Lowes or Home Depot, they could always use someone who is reliable and knows what they're tallijf about.