weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 1, 2015 17:07:41 GMT -5
Catholic guilt runs strong and deep. (so does Jewish guilt) As does Russian Orthodox guilt. My niece and her husband are both atheists. The parents are Catholic and RO. They got married in a RO church just to keep the peace. It was really pretty, elaborate and ornate, but meant nothing to them. Absolutely nothing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 17:15:20 GMT -5
It's the Catholic version of premarital counseling. Thanks. It sounds like a plant to me. Cana, calla - tomatoes, tomahtoes.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Apr 1, 2015 17:19:50 GMT -5
It's the Catholic version of premarital counseling. Thanks. It sounds like a plant to me. Cana, calla - tomatoes, tomahtoes. Cana(bis)?
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quince
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Post by quince on Apr 1, 2015 17:29:19 GMT -5
I'm an atheist and my husband identifies as Christian.
I didn't compromise, because I have to put up with saying grace and all the other religious trappings whenever we visit his relatives and it pisses me off. I don't go around telling people that their deity is a fiction, I would like people to have the same courtesy and not go around expecting me to go along with their rituals. Not only did we have a totally secular ceremony, I told him if anyone decided they wanted to make a speech or public prayer, I was leaving. Everyone can say grace for themselves if that's their thing, of course, and I wouldn't have minded if his family decided that their little group could hold hands and say grace, but I'm not going to be made uncomfortable at my own wedding.
He is also allowed to take our kid to church once he's old enough to think critically: which will depend on his own individual development and not a set age. I'm not worried about that. I say my husband identifies as Christian instead of he IS Christian because he doesn't believe in the supernatural aspects of it and is totally just a lazy, "I kind of agree with select values that are taught using Christ as an example, so it's an easy social shorthand". If I actually believed he was a Christian I wouldn't have married him.
Now that we have a kid I am going to bow out of participating in grace, etc, so that my kid knows that participation is voluntary. Not bad, not wonderful, but something that is important to some people, and there is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with it not being important to other people.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Apr 1, 2015 17:29:40 GMT -5
Cana(bis)? I might have gone if that were the case Sorry - it was just the first thing that popped into my head
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 1, 2015 17:35:21 GMT -5
I'm an atheist and my husband identifies as Christian. I didn't compromise, because I have to put up with saying grace and all the other religious trappings whenever we visit his relatives and it pisses me off. I don't go around telling people that their deity is a fiction, I would like people to have the same courtesy and not go around expecting me to go along with their rituals. Not only did we have a totally secular ceremony, I told him if anyone decided they wanted to make a speech or public prayer, I was leaving. Everyone can say grace for themselves if that's their thing, of course, and I wouldn't have minded if his family decided that their little group could hold hands and say grace, but I'm not going to be made uncomfortable at my own wedding. He is also allowed to take our kid to church once he's old enough to think critically: which will depend on his own individual development and not a set age. I'm not worried about that. I say my husband identifies as Christian instead of he IS Christian because he doesn't believe in the supernatural aspects of it and is totally just a lazy, "I kind of agree with select values that are taught using Christ as an example, so it's an easy social shorthand". If I actually believed he was a Christian I wouldn't have married him. Now that we have a kid I am going to bow out of participating in grace, etc, so that my kid knows that participation is voluntary. Not bad, not wonderful, but something that is important to some people, and there is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with it not being important to other people. We were visiting some Christian friends of mine and at the table, I told my son we had to wait for Grace. "Mom, who's Grace? Will she be here soon? I'm hungry."
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Apr 1, 2015 17:40:48 GMT -5
I'm an atheist and my husband identifies as Christian. I didn't compromise, because I have to put up with saying grace and all the other religious trappings whenever we visit his relatives and it pisses me off. I don't go around telling people that their deity is a fiction, I would like people to have the same courtesy and not go around expecting me to go along with their rituals. Not only did we have a totally secular ceremony, I told him if anyone decided they wanted to make a speech or public prayer, I was leaving. Everyone can say grace for themselves if that's their thing, of course, and I wouldn't have minded if his family decided that their little group could hold hands and say grace, but I'm not going to be made uncomfortable at my own wedding. He is also allowed to take our kid to church once he's old enough to think critically: which will depend on his own individual development and not a set age. I'm not worried about that. I say my husband identifies as Christian instead of he IS Christian because he doesn't believe in the supernatural aspects of it and is totally just a lazy, "I kind of agree with select values that are taught using Christ as an example, so it's an easy social shorthand". If I actually believed he was a Christian I wouldn't have married him. Now that we have a kid I am going to bow out of participating in grace, etc, so that my kid knows that participation is voluntary. Not bad, not wonderful, but something that is important to some people, and there is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with it not being important to other people. We were visiting some Christian friends of mine and at the table, I told my son we had to wait for Grace. "Mom, who's Grace? Will she be here soon? I'm hungry."
Oh, how clever, ha, ha. Very gracious.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 1, 2015 17:42:14 GMT -5
We were visiting some Christian friends of mine and at the table, I told my son we had to wait for Grace. "Mom, who's Grace? Will she be here soon? I'm hungry."
Oh, how clever, ha, ha. Very gracious. You're laughing at a 7 yr old? How gracious!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 1, 2015 19:31:18 GMT -5
Catholic guilt runs strong and deep. My guilt-o-meter was apparently broken when we got married. I'm a practicing/non practicing Catholic if that makes any sense (In other words the tradition and the roots are important, but the practical application not so much). That and I always thought the pre cana meetings were kind of creepy. That's me and xH. We raised our sons without organized religion but exposed them to many through our international life style. Today as adults one is an atheist, the other catholic.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Apr 1, 2015 20:51:06 GMT -5
I still wish I'd had a religious wedding and a reception. Hey, you still can! Why not just do it to piss off the bio-brat? You could make her head spin, steam come out of her ears and her eyes bulge just by saying out loud, "Yanno, your dad and I love each other soooooooooo much, we're gonna spend more of your non-inheritance on another wedding ceremony." Yeah, she made some snotty remark about how people with second weddings shouldn't make a big deal out of them. I'm afraid I did not take the high road and said did that mean her mother didn't marry the pedophile after all since she had a big wedding that DH paid for. So that was either her second wedding or bio brats half brother and half sister were bastards. This was after she got through complaining to DH that her wedding invitations couldn't say mr and mrs. DH is still very weak and she's still a nasty piece of work.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 1, 2015 21:47:23 GMT -5
Swamp/others who feel this way- what is it about the tradition of Catholicism that means something to you when practicing it is not important to you?
Not asking with judgment, just curious.
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NancysSummerSip
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Post by NancysSummerSip on Apr 2, 2015 8:51:01 GMT -5
I'm an atheist and my husband identifies as Christian. I didn't compromise, because I have to put up with saying grace and all the other religious trappings whenever we visit his relatives and it pisses me off. I don't go around telling people that their deity is a fiction, I would like people to have the same courtesy and not go around expecting me to go along with their rituals. Not only did we have a totally secular ceremony, I told him if anyone decided they wanted to make a speech or public prayer, I was leaving. Everyone can say grace for themselves if that's their thing, of course, and I wouldn't have minded if his family decided that their little group could hold hands and say grace, but I'm not going to be made uncomfortable at my own wedding. He is also allowed to take our kid to church once he's old enough to think critically: which will depend on his own individual development and not a set age. I'm not worried about that. I say my husband identifies as Christian instead of he IS Christian because he doesn't believe in the supernatural aspects of it and is totally just a lazy, "I kind of agree with select values that are taught using Christ as an example, so it's an easy social shorthand". If I actually believed he was a Christian I wouldn't have married him. Now that we have a kid I am going to bow out of participating in grace, etc, so that my kid knows that participation is voluntary. Not bad, not wonderful, but something that is important to some people, and there is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with it not being important to other people. We were visiting some Christian friends of mine and at the table, I told my son we had to wait for Grace. "Mom, who's Grace? Will she be here soon? I'm hungry."
Aw, cute. Heck, the kid didn't know. I think it's both funny and honest.
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cael
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Post by cael on Apr 2, 2015 9:03:44 GMT -5
DH and I are both atheists, and we had my minister (from my UU church) marry us, but at the venue our reception was at (didn't want a church wedding). No one complained, although my mom probably would've liked to see me married in my church. I have nothing against it, but just wanted to get married outside in a pretty garden. Also our minister is our age, is into nerdy stuff like we are, has long hair and wears Chucks to church sometimes, so we kind of love him. My Jewish coworker's wife is Catholic, and it meant more to her family they got married in a Catholic church than it meant to him. His kids do CCD and all that but honestly neither of them care so much that they'd be upset if the kids decided not to be Catholic anymore. The kids know all the Jewish traditions too and they do Hannukah and Christmas (Hannukah to a lesser degree though). I guess I don't get the point of doing it just for the sake of doing it (because it's what her family expected), but that's just me. Everyone's happy (enough) with how they've done it. We may have an issue when we have kids because I would like my kids to go to my church (not necessarily being committed to every week, but I'd like them at least dedicated there) - I want them to grow up with a nice supportive community like that to guide and nurture them in deciding what they want to believe. DH may push back a little, but he doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to. He doesn't have any issue with my church specifically or the people there, he has a fundamental thing with church in general (too long to get into).
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 2, 2015 11:23:36 GMT -5
I'm an atheist and my husband identifies as Christian. I didn't compromise, because I have to put up with saying grace and all the other religious trappings whenever we visit his relatives and it pisses me off. I don't go around telling people that their deity is a fiction, I would like people to have the same courtesy and not go around expecting me to go along with their rituals. Not only did we have a totally secular ceremony, I told him if anyone decided they wanted to make a speech or public prayer, I was leaving. Everyone can say grace for themselves if that's their thing, of course, and I wouldn't have minded if his family decided that their little group could hold hands and say grace, but I'm not going to be made uncomfortable at my own wedding. He is also allowed to take our kid to church once he's old enough to think critically: which will depend on his own individual development and not a set age. I'm not worried about that. I say my husband identifies as Christian instead of he IS Christian because he doesn't believe in the supernatural aspects of it and is totally just a lazy, "I kind of agree with select values that are taught using Christ as an example, so it's an easy social shorthand". If I actually believed he was a Christian I wouldn't have married him. Now that we have a kid I am going to bow out of participating in grace, etc, so that my kid knows that participation is voluntary. Not bad, not wonderful, but something that is important to some people, and there is nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with it not being important to other people. I don't mind if people want to say grace in their own home. I don't appreciate it at all when they want to lead a prayer in my home.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Apr 2, 2015 11:55:04 GMT -5
I'm confused.......You are atheist but go to church? What is a UU church?
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Apr 2, 2015 12:28:02 GMT -5
I'm confused.......You are atheist but go to church? What is a UU church?
It's Unitarian Universalist. Yes, some members are atheist.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Apr 2, 2015 13:22:18 GMT -5
Swamp/others who feel this way- what is it about the tradition of Catholicism that means something to you when practicing it is not important to you? Not asking with judgment, just curious. I don't know.
Probably because it's drilled into you that you're going to hell if you don't do what they say, it's hard to shake that.
However, I do find some of the rituals comforting. And the church I got married in is gorgeous.
Part of it is probably cultural. I grew up in a town that has the Diocesean offices, and the bishop's house was a block away from mine. His house and the assorted buildings occupied an entire city block, and had a fenced yard. Perfect for ball games, kite flying, tag, and other games. All the neighborhood kids gathered there to play, and the bishop would watch us, come out and talk, hand us candy, and was just a general all around good guy. The town was also originally a French Canadian catholic settlement, so just about everyone in town was catholic, more culturally than practicing. When I was a kid, you couldn't get a burger on a Friday in lent, and even the public schools didn't serve meat on Friday.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Apr 2, 2015 13:44:30 GMT -5
LOL! Which proves I didn't pay that close attention in Catholic school. Or Sunday school. Or church... My first marriage was in a Catholic church as we were both Catholics. DH2 was never baptized so he got baptized in a non denominational church and I renewed my faith at the same church with him. Catholic doctrine and the church itself overwhelmed him so we found a cute Methodist church that wasn't too big or too formal and we got married there. They had Pre Cana classes that we took. It came out that we knew each other very well but we lived together for years before marrying. It was just right as it had a nice combination of Catholicism and non denominational teachings that we were both comfortable with and we didn't have to keep standing up, kneeling, etc. that confused DH2. I think it was too much exercise for him.
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lexxy703
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Post by lexxy703 on Apr 2, 2015 13:52:03 GMT -5
LOL! Which proves I didn't pay that close attention in Catholic school. Or Sunday school. Or church... My first marriage was in a Catholic church as we were both Catholics. DH2 was never baptized so he got baptized in a non denominational church and I renewed my faith at the same church with him. Catholic doctrine and the church itself overwhelmed him so we found a cute Methodist church that wasn't too big or too formal and we got married there. They had Pre Cana classes that we took. It came out that we knew each other very well but we lived together for years before marrying. It was just right as it had a nice combination of Catholicism and non denominational teachings that we were both comfortable with and we didn't have to keep standing up, kneeling, etc. that confused DH2. I think it was too much exercise for him. LOL, my bff is Catholic & back in HS she had to go to church. She opted to go Saturday night before we went out for the night & I'd go with her. I always felt like I was in an aerobics class that I couldn't keep up with the rest of the class. I was always half a move behind.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Apr 2, 2015 13:53:09 GMT -5
Swamp/others who feel this way- what is it about the tradition of Catholicism that means something to you when practicing it is not important to you? Not asking with judgment, just curious.
Another fallen away Catholic here - I'm one of the twice-a-year crowd . I go mostly because the rest of my family is going. When I go (on major holidays), I really like the music and the traditional "feel." It feels like I'm connected to history, to my ancestors, to something that is bigger than me. [but in all fairness, as a child and teen I got the same feeling from working at the ballet barre]. Corny, I know, but that's really what attracts me.
But on a daily/weekly/lifestyle level, I cannot belong to the church because I disagree with how it treats women and gays. It's hypocritical of me to "belong" when I don't support their institutionalized discrimination of half their membership.
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t-dog
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Post by t-dog on Apr 2, 2015 14:08:07 GMT -5
I am catholic and so was the late hubs. My mom was raised in a Jewish household. I wanted to married in a Catholic church but stick to only old testament readings since both sides of my family believed in the old testament - you would have thought I was asking the parish priest to solve the middle east crisis. Ended up firing the priest and my uncle (from dads catholic side) who is a Deacon did the ceremony and stuck to just the old testament. Had to get uncle cleared by both NY and SF archdioceses which was surprisingly easy.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Apr 2, 2015 14:13:44 GMT -5
Swamp/others who feel this way- what is it about the tradition of Catholicism that means something to you when practicing it is not important to you? Not asking with judgment, just curious.
Another fallen away Catholic here - I'm one of the twice-a-year crowd . I go mostly because the rest of my family is going. When I go (on major holidays), I really like the music and the traditional "feel." It feels like I'm connected to history, to my ancestors, to something that is bigger than me. [but in all fairness, as a child and teen I got the same feeling from working at the ballet barre]. Corny, I know, but that's really what attracts me.
But on a daily/weekly/lifestyle level, I cannot belong to the church because I disagree with how it treats women and gays. It's hypocritical of me to "belong" when I don't support their institutionalized discrimination of half their membership.
I can still quote both the English and Latin portions of a full Catholic Mass. other than weddings and funerals, I haven't set foot in a church in who knows how long. I get the familiarity thing, but if you're not into it, why go? I caught a bit of grief this week b/c I'm not willing to schlep 3h up to my sister's house this Sunday to have a meal with her, my BIL, and my parents in honor of a holiday I don't celebrate, and where I can't really drink anything (the best way to survive holidays with my family) because I then get to drive 3h back home again. uh, no thank you. I have been craving a turkey dinner w/all the fixins the past couple weeks though.....so my roommate and I will be doing that on Sunday ourselves anyway. lol...all the fun, none of the aggravation involved with holidays.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Apr 2, 2015 15:13:41 GMT -5
The whole wedding planning process is one giant experiment in navigating relationship problems, IMO. I am surprised anyone ends up married after planning a wedding. It's easy. You say "yes, Dear"; "whatever you'd like, Dear"; "what do you think would look/work best, Dear". And then move on to what's the address of the chruch and when do you want me to show up? Followed by do you want me to wear a tux or a suit? All done. Easy peazy. As long as you don't lose sight of the fact that your wedding is a big party being thrown by the bride's mother, you'll be OK.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 15:30:52 GMT -5
Thanks. It sounds like a plant to me. Cana, calla - tomatoes, tomahtoes. Cana(bis)? Where I come from, cannabis is very much a part of every junior and senior high school so why not church?
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CarolinaKat
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Post by CarolinaKat on Apr 2, 2015 15:58:31 GMT -5
Another fallen away Catholic here - I'm one of the twice-a-year crowd . I go mostly because the rest of my family is going. When I go (on major holidays), I really like the music and the traditional "feel." It feels like I'm connected to history, to my ancestors, to something that is bigger than me. [but in all fairness, as a child and teen I got the same feeling from working at the ballet barre]. Corny, I know, but that's really what attracts me.
But on a daily/weekly/lifestyle level, I cannot belong to the church because I disagree with how it treats women and gays. It's hypocritical of me to "belong" when I don't support their institutionalized discrimination of half their membership.
I can still quote both the English and Latin portions of a full Catholic Mass. other than weddings and funerals, I haven't set foot in a church in who knows how long. I get the familiarity thing, but if you're not into it, why go? I caught a bit of grief this week b/c I'm not willing to schlep 3h up to my sister's house this Sunday to have a meal with her, my BIL, and my parents in honor of a holiday I don't celebrate, and where I can't really drink anything (the best way to survive holidays with my family) because I then get to drive 3h back home again. uh, no thank you. I have been craving a turkey dinner w/all the fixins the past couple weeks though.....so my roommate and I will be doing that on Sunday ourselves anyway. lol...all the fun, none of the aggravation involved with holidays. OT: But my 'Oh hell no ever going back to the Catholic church' SIL gives her children 'Easter' baskets from the Equinox Bunny
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 2, 2015 16:49:14 GMT -5
Probably because it's drilled into you that you're going to hell if you don't do what they say, it's hard to shake that.
I can appreciate that. Part of me still seriously fears going to hell when I die. But I don't figure going to church twice a year and blowing it off the rest of the time would prevent that, if it's going to happen.
I don't judge people who go to church for happy feels. I just can't relate to it. I have too much resentment for the church, my history within it, and its teachings to feel anything better than uncomfortable inside one. I would never have wanted those complicated and negative emotions to compromise the happiness of my wedding day.
I consider it a great credit to my parents (and other religious relatives) that they never once pressured me to get married in a church, or even to include a prayer in the ceremony. I'm sure it was painful for them, but it showed great respect for my feelings and beliefs, and I've never forgotten it. I am well aware not everyone gets that luxury from family members.
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jinksd1
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Post by jinksd1 on Apr 2, 2015 19:11:27 GMT -5
I'm an atheist (agnostic then) married to a fundamentalist Christian. I agreed to be married in a church so long as the ceremony was pretty standard, the restrictions weren't too crazy, and my own vows didn't include "god" (his could if he wanted). We had no luck at all in finding a church.
Most of them outright refused to marry a Christian to a non-Christian, but three agreed to meet with us. One pastor wouldn't agree to let me have the standard vows without adding the word "god" to them (you know...to have and to hold, to love and to cherish, blah, blah). Another had so many restrictions that it turned us both off (must use a wedding program that we print for you, flower arrangements have to be approved by us, no choice in any aspect of the ceremony, etc.). The last one used the opportunity to, in front of me but never speaking to me, tell my future husband why he shouldn't be marrying me, that I have no reason to be agnostic unless I was molested as a child, and that "you can't let this woman raise your children and ruin them". After that one, I refused to be married in a church at all.
We were married at the same place we had our reception, in a room next to the ballroom.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Apr 2, 2015 19:49:15 GMT -5
Yeah. That's the part that bothered me. Not the God part.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 21:48:45 GMT -5
I came from an atheist/lapsed Catholic background and DH came from 1/2 Catholic and 1/2 nothing so we did a civil ceremony. Many decades later, after we decided to align with the Episcopal church, we renewed our vows in the church. It works for us.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Apr 2, 2015 23:29:30 GMT -5
I know that much of my view of catholicism was shaped by my mother, grandmother and the nuns (my great aunts/cousins) who are all kind, intelligent, and strong women so even while I'm not catholic, I will always feel a connection there. My confirmation teacher encouraged critical thinking, told us his beliefs even if they weren't church beliefs. Catholics could drink, smoke, and dance and we never talked about hell or judgment. .I<span style="font-size: 13.3333330154419px;"> </span> never saw the other side of the catholic church until I was in my 20's. If dgm wanted to go to church I would happily take her, and probably even participate in communion.
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