Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 17, 2015 16:34:22 GMT -5
If you know something can kill you and you play around with it, then you die, it is your fault. Russian roulette in the restaurant. And the restaurant goes out of business after they are sued.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 16:40:03 GMT -5
Well enough to avoid cross contamination issues for somebody with a deadly allergy? If you were the cook, would you risk it? Using a separate pan is the only thing that makes sense, but now it's sitting on a grill with 10 other orders that might contain the allergen. No way to guarantee it won't get cross contaminated from something else spattering. If the grill itself is covered in butter, pancake mix residue that contains milk, and whatnot, how much are the pancakes picking up just from being next to those things as they burn off? The restaurant is screwed no matter what they do. You can't cook allergen free food at the same time, and right next to, food containing those allergens and guarantee it won't get contaminated. There's no way to do it that isn't insanely cost prohibitive to the restaurant. You are right. You can't guarantee. Went to Hu Hot's website out of curiousity. What their allergen page says:
- On request we will clean the grill & use dedicated spatulas to "minimize the risk" of cross contamination - 'although we take precautions'....'we cannot guarantee you will not come in contact with an allergen'
I think that is fair. A person with a food allergy will know how sensitive they are & if they are at risk. I don't have a problem when a restaurant is honest about their ingredients & their abilities.
I just have a problem when restaurants aren't honest about one or the other. Like Ryan said - You need a procedure in place. Even if that procedure is simply, "we can't serve you".
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Mar 17, 2015 16:41:42 GMT -5
True. Collect the tips and turn in your order pad and apron. Move on to the next restauRANT.
I used to play golf with a woman who was allergic to bee stings. She would drink sweet smelling coke while playing then wonder why the wasps/bees were after her. I told her that I was unable to help her if she went anaphylactic.
I also used to lunch with a group where one woman had these allergy issues. She would go in early and review everything with the servers. The restaurants have a book that shows all ingredients in all choices. She has quit joining us with no explanation.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 16:44:48 GMT -5
If you know something can kill you and you play around with it, then you die, it is your fault. Russian roulette in the restaurant. Do you say the same thing when someone dies in a car accident?
Russian roulette in the car
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Mar 17, 2015 16:46:24 GMT -5
I know this may sound heartless, but it is not the responsibility for the rest of us, to bend over backwards to accommodate all special needs...that would simply be impossible.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Mar 17, 2015 16:50:08 GMT -5
If you know something can kill you and you play around with it, then you die, it is your fault. Russian roulette in the restaurant. Do you say the same thing when someone dies in a car accident?
Russian roulette in the car
Yes. We are all playing the game most of the time.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 17, 2015 16:56:09 GMT -5
I know this may sound heartless, but it is not the responsibility for the rest of us, to bend over backwards to accommodate all special needs...that would simply be impossible. Then they probably shouldn't be telling the patrons they can accommodate, no?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 17:14:07 GMT -5
That's almost worse from a liability standpoint. Now instead of having poorly trained staff say they followed the directions the customer gave and a tragedy happened anyway, the business is totally accepting all liability by stepping in and saying they have somebody trained to properly handle this type of request. Sooner or later they'll have somebody with a really severe allergy who will have a reaction just from airborne contamination or something, and be fucked during the inevitable lawsuit. Food companies are way ahead of the game here. They put a disclaimer on products that are packaged in the same facility as say peanuts, even if it happens hundreds of feet away on completely separate machines. Restaurant kitchens aren't big enough, clean enough, and separated enough to guarantee allergen free food. Pretending otherwise is dangerous for their customers with allergies, and really stupid on their part liability wise. I guess my point is that I don't understand the idea that the restaurant should have to inform people with allergies about whether they can or can't accommodate them. The answer is always, no they can't. Not with a very high level of certainty anyway. If they have dairy products on the menu, for example, every surface of that kitchen has had dairy on it, all the utensils have touched dairy, all the dishware, etc. They're a facility that processes dairy on a daily basis. Would you buy your dairy allergic kid granola bars made in facility that processed dairy, and put that warning on their packaging? Hell no. So why are you going out to eat in a facility that processes dairy, eating from the kitchen where they do the dairy processing itself, and doing all of it on surfaces that have directly had dairy on them in the last 24 hours? It's crazy, and anyone with a lick of common sense would realize there's no way in hell they can guarantee that you won't have a reaction in those conditions. Trying to make that guarantee is stupid on their part. Trustng it is stupid on yours. while I admit that my allergy is not nearly as acute as this kid's was, I feel comfortable at Joe's and Wagamama. I tend to order things that can easily be pan-cooked instead of a grill anyway, so it's actually not that difficult for the manager walking my shit through the kitchen. quite frankly, just following good food handling practices should cover any cross-contamination issues in places like that. I am fully aware that a breakfast place is an entirely different environment though. just speaking from my own experiences out and about. again though, as I said - I travel with meds, always.
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Martivir
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Post by Martivir on Mar 17, 2015 17:17:31 GMT -5
This reminded me to call the place we are having breakfast at on Sunday. I called and the girl on the phone basically said that they can't guarantee anything. But she was happy to say yes to us bringing my son something that he could eat. Manager is going to call me back to tomorrow though for a more in depth conversation about it.
I don't think the restaurant is at fault. Maybe the server asked the cook who was overwhelmed and misheard. Or didn't know the various names milk is found under. We can only guess. And I will admit to forgetting the epipen before when we were still getting used to carrying it. But now I carry them and some benadryl in my purse at all times. DH keeps one in his jacket and DS even has one in the bag he takes to basketball. And at 16 kids should be carrying their own. I know as a mom I will probably continue to have one long after DS moves out. Just in case.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 17, 2015 17:22:59 GMT -5
I carry a spare set of DH's meds on me. No way in hell would I go anywhere where my child might DIE without their meds. If students with disabilities in elementary school can remember their epi-pen, so can a 16 year old or his parent. I'd have epi pens everywhere. This is so awful I can barely believe it.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 17, 2015 17:23:35 GMT -5
Wrong emoji
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 18:15:58 GMT -5
Not really. Kitchen surfaces have to be wiped down periodically, but they're only sanitized at the end of each shift. They're a little more careful with something like slicing raw pork on a cutting board. It will be sent to the dishwasher and a new one used to prep the veggies that accompany it. However, if they're grating cheese on the cutting board, they'll wipe off any leftovers with a dry rag, then prep veggies on the same board. This could obviously be a problem for somebody with a dairy allergy that orders a salad. Most cross contamination issues that relate to food safety involve raw meat. There's no requirement to keep all ingredients separate in case somebody is allergic to one. please take my comment in the context it was delivered - in relation to my own allergy, which is to shellfish (which I may not have said in this thread, but I've said in myriad other food allergy threads recently. sorry for my omission here). general food safety policies would cover MY cross-contamination issues.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 18:44:03 GMT -5
I don't disagree with anything you just said there.....again, my issue with the restaurant is this - if the allergy was clearly declared and they could not guarantee that they could accommodate it, then they had an obligation to say so.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 20:14:16 GMT -5
Did the family let the staff know that the kid's allergy was life threatening, or simply say he was allergic to dairy? Did they even inform them that he was in fact allergic to dairy, and not just lactose intolerant? At what point should they be held accountable for trying to please the customer? If he was lactose intolerant, and they tried to meet his request, but gave him a stomach ache anyway, should they be sued for millions? What if he had a mild allergy and spent the next two days with diarrhea and bloating? Millions again? The kid died, not just got sick for a few days, and that's a tragedy, but I don't see how it makes the restaurant anymore responsible. My personal little tidbit. My wife hates pickles. I don't use hate lightly here. She completely despises pickles. She likes hamburgers though. When we go out she's always very careful to tell the waitress she can't stand the taste or smell of pickles and to make sure there are none on the plate at all. Not even on the side. I'd say easily 80% of the time her burger shows up with tomatoes, lettuce, onion, and pickles on the side. At least 80% of the time, and that's after she makes the waitress write "NO pickles anywhere on plate" on the ticket. Another 10% of the time she can smell where they put the pickle on, but the waitress pulled it off before bringing it to her. Says it contaminated her fries, or hash browns, or bun, and sends the whole thing back. If she had a deathly allergy to pickles, instead of a hatred for them, she'd be dead now. Given that experience, I really don't understand anyone with a deathly allergy trusting poorly paid, and overworked, restaurant workers not to kill them by accident. Restaurant kitchens are busy. They get in the habit of making things a certain way. It's way too easy for them to inadvertently make the whatever the same way they always do, instead of leaving out the one ingredient. Or, not understanding that a certain ingredient is dairy, gluten, a tree nut, or whatever. Your pickle story is a perfect example why I pretty much never order anything that typically comes with dairy. Too often they screw up or catch it at the last minute and try to fix rather than make a new plate. Then a lot of things I don't even try to figure out. I just never eat bread at a restaurant. It isn't worth the hassle of trying to figure out if it is dairy free. I would never in a million years order pancakes for the same reason.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Mar 17, 2015 21:38:08 GMT -5
Several states, including Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Maryland now have state laws that place responsibility on restaurants to train all staff in serving customers with food allergies and to develop allergy-safe food prep procedures. As the parent of two children, each with different life-threatening, anaphylactic, food allergies, I can tell you that the most important effect of these laws is that restaurants can no longer bluff or lie about ingredients and the food prep. If you can't safely serve us, I am okay with that, but tell me exactly that. Don't answer me off the cuff. I want to speak to the chef or the manager or even both and get accurate answers to my questions. I am happy to read the labels. If you are only comfortable serving a plain chicken breast baked in foil and a plain baked potato baked in foil, then tell me and we will not only order it, we'll tip you well for all your effort to keep my kids safe. The difference is that I now have the law on my side to ensure that accurate answers are given and that proper allergen-safe steps are taken. That said, the bulk of the responsibility to keep my kids safe rests with me. Each child has 5 two-packs of Epi Pens going at any time -- back packs, pockets, sports bags, back sacks, etc. I carry two sets at ALL times that the kids are with me. I carry "chef cards" with the names of the various forms of the allergens on it that can be given to kitchen staff. The kids and I always have snacks with us, just in case. Sure, a snack isn't nearly as yummy or filling as the full meal your friends might be eating in a place that can't safely serve you. But, better to leave hungry and alive. Our family motto is "when in doubt, go without" and it has served us well all these years. My heart breaks for this family and I mourn the loss of this young man. But, to be fair, there are a fair number of families with kids with life-threatening, anaphylactic, food allergies who don't understand the severity of their child's allergy or who don't understand why having Epi Pens at the ready is so critically important. Sadly, there was a similar case a few years ago that involved a family who travelled to Mexico without Epi Pens for a child with a life-threatening, anaphylactic, allergy to peanuts. I'd leave my wallet and keys at home -- heck, I'd even leave the kids at home -- before I'd leave the Epis.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2015 22:05:46 GMT -5
I was in a gluten free bakery the other day... Not just dedicated space , dedicated kitchen. Barring that, I don't know that anyone has ever suggested to me that I was guaranteed anything...
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 17, 2015 22:06:25 GMT -5
Until this thread I didn't know some states had laws on food allergies and restaurants. I don't know if NJ has some or not, but I expect we are not part of those starting laws on this.
This happened in Minnesota and its likely they also don't have laws like what exists in MA and those other states. Incidents like this might cause more laws in more states to make it safer for those like this teen and easier for someone like me to avoid dairy.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 17, 2015 23:30:15 GMT -5
No - the restaurant employee probably didn't check the labels on the pancake mix to be sure or guarantee that it didn't contain certain ingredients. The server took the cook's word for it, and the family took the word of the server after he/she relayed the message back to the table.
I still don't see how the restaurant can be held accountable. Where were the boy's meds? Obviously not with them. Is that the restaurant's fault? That Epipen very likely would have saved the young man's life IF he'd only had it with him.
It should have been routine to always have one readily available.
You just can't expect minimum wage workers fresh out of high school to be nutritionists. How many people know what whey is? I just asked my son if he knows. It was like an Abbott and Costello routine. "Way what?" "No. Whey" "Weigh? What are you talking about?"
Most servers could easily identify milk, but probably not whey. Again, if you want a guaranteed, dairy-free restaurant, go to a vegan place. They usually know their stuff. And they make great pancakes.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 17, 2015 23:51:16 GMT -5
It's about punishing the restaurant and attempting to validate their mistaken belief that they (the parents) aren't to blame for their son's death. Suing the restaurant won't accomplish a bloody thing, and I find it hard to believe they don't know that. Actually it will accomplish something. It will make restaurant owners put protocols in place for how they deal with customers when they notify them of food allergies. Yeah. They'll tell them to get the [snow leopard] out because they'll be damned if they're going to clean the grill and cross their fingers while Johnny Anaphylaxis eats his Russian roulette cakes with maple syrup. If they're compassionate and particularly bold, they'll tell the family that they're idiots for not having their son's lifesaving equipment with them whilst kicking them out of the restaurant. There's your "accountable" world, sir.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 18, 2015 1:12:02 GMT -5
Are restaurants complying, or are they posting signs saying they can't guarantee an allergen free meal? That's a pretty big liability to place on an industry that's notorious for low margins already. I can assure you with certainty that our store in Massachusetts have similar signs as the one posted above. We try our best but we cannot guarantee that no allergens have been near your food or product. We don't have a dedicated space for it. People do get train on food allergies but at the end of the day the conclusion is the same: we guarantee NOTHING.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 2:35:51 GMT -5
Are restaurants complying, or are they posting signs saying they can't guarantee an allergen free meal? That's a pretty big liability to place on an industry that's notorious for low margins already. I don't even live in that state and we have a lot of allergy friendly restaurants. It is pretty obvious when you are in one with trained staff. So I would guess a lot are complyinh. There are a lot of different severities of allergies. People generally know how sensitive they are and how severe their reaction will be and act accordingly. You mentioned earlier buying a product manufactured in a facility that processes dairy. I buy those with no problem, as long as it doesn't say manufactured on equipment that processes dairy. That's my level of sensitivity. So as long as a kitchen can verify something is dairy free and cook it on clean equipment, then I will be fine. I'm not worried about the fact they have dairy in the kitchen and cook with it...I grew up with dairy in the kitchen, I still have dairy in my kitchen for my kids. If I was more sensitive or my reactions were more severe, then I would think twice about eating out. I think most people are realistic about what a restaurant can accommodate. Really all I want is confidence and accuracy if you tell me something is dairy free and avoidance of major cross contamination by using clean pans and utensils. If you can't accommodate, then be honest. I am aware I can still get sick, but barring a major screwup, then it won't be a major reaction. By major screwup I mean something like putting cheese on my burger and then just pulling it off when you realize the mistake. Any adequately trained staff would realize something like that is a huge no no.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 18, 2015 5:27:16 GMT -5
If you know something can kill you and you play around with it, then you die, it is your fault. Russian roulette in the restaurant. Do you say the same thing when someone dies in a car accident?
Russian roulette in the car
If you are driving drunk with no seat belt and forgot your glasses, then is that merely a "tragic accident"? Or is Toyota to blame?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 18, 2015 5:30:22 GMT -5
This is a tragedy for the family. And, yes, if he never really had much of a reaction before, then the family dropped their guard on the dangers of anaphylaxis. It is a human thing to do and they probably thought less and less of the epi pen when time went on. So, it is a tragic mistake on THEIR part. And, the other part of it was not IMMEDIATELY calling 911 at the restaurant but deciding to take their chances and drive home. By driving home and letting the allergy begin it's cascade they lost that time of driving and leaving when EMS would have been arriving at the restaurant. Also, it is entirely possible that someone at the restaurant may have had an epi pen in their possession as well.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 18, 2015 5:39:24 GMT -5
Well my son has celiacs , he can't eat gluten. But, that is not an anaphylactic event. It isn't that type of allergy. Maybe if people with intolerances stopped acting like they were going to die if they would ingest something that isn't in their diet, the constant Wolf crying would quell and those with real LIFE threatening issues would be heard?
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 18, 2015 6:53:09 GMT -5
Actually it will accomplish something. It will make restaurant owners put protocols in place for how they deal with customers when they notify them of food allergies. Yeah. They'll tell them to get the [snow leopard] out because they'll be damned if they're going to clean the grill and cross their fingers while Johnny Anaphylaxis eats his Russian roulette cakes with maple syrup. If they're compassionate and particularly bold, they'll tell the family that they're idiots for not having their son's lifesaving equipment with them whilst kicking them out of the restaurant. There's your "accountable" world, sir. Actually, the protocol might be telling the person they can't accomodate if they have a deadly allergy....instead of lying. Not really that difficult and a lot less downside.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 7:23:59 GMT -5
Do you say the same thing when someone dies in a car accident?
Russian roulette in the car
If you are driving drunk with no seat belt and forgot your glasses, then is that merely a "tragic accident"? Or is Toyota to blame? I was more thinking if I died in a car accident because some idiot couldn't bother to stop at a stop sign and look, while knowing there might be an oncoming car and as a result they broadside me. I think that would be similar to some idiot announcing something was dairy free and feeding it to me without actually looking, while knowing I have an allergy and as a result I get sick or die. In both cases, I did take risk in doing the activity (driving, eating). But in both cases the major mistake was someone else's fault.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 18, 2015 9:31:16 GMT -5
Well my son has celiacs , he can't eat gluten. But, that is not an anaphylactic event. It isn't that type of allergy. Maybe if people with intolerances stopped acting like they were going to die if they would ingest something that isn't in their diet, the constant Wolf crying would quell and those with real LIFE threatening issues would be heard? I think its unrealistic to believe the bigger number of people with food sensitivities are going totally change their behavior yet everyone then would totally take it on faith, when someone tells them they have a life-threatening allergy.
Perhaps a better solution would be those who do have life threatening allergies show their epi pen to the server as proof this something worse than the norm. Your son can eat gluten, its just going to make him very sick because his body can't process it. This is like most of us with sensitivities to various food allergens. We won't drop dead, won't have hives or obvious signs usually right after eating. But depending on out sensitivities we will be suffering in our digestion, joints, get ringing ears, etc. possibly for days that the server and others will be unaware of.
Maybe Shooby you can get doctor's to hand out cards to their patients with the allergy(ies) listed and the levels. Level 1 can be might be fatal. Level 5 can be mild discomfort for a day or less. (And maybe Level 6 for I avoid it to lose weight. Or its trendy.  
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Mar 18, 2015 10:06:22 GMT -5
As Angel noted, and has been my experience, there are increasing numbers of restaurants that ARE allergy-friendly (i.e., know and are trained in their limitations and abilities to accommodate food allergies). Some, maybe, due to the laws. Others, because, believe it or not, restaurant owners, restaurant management and restaurant employees can also have life-threatening, anaphylactic, food allergies or love someone who does. Ming Tsai -- the famous fusion chef has a son with a life-threatening, anaphylactic, allergy to peanuts. His Asian-focused restaurants are very proactive when it comes to customers with food allergies. Sadly, the number of folks with food allergies is increasing, and so they are not so rare anymore. So, to paint with the broad brush that says restaurants and their employees can't possibly understand food allergies and their dire consequences is a flawed argument. Besides, putting rat poison in food will kill restaurant customers. And, somehow we trust minimum wage restaurant employees to know this and to not do it. As for the chef cards, foodallergy.org sells small, credit-card-sized cards that list all of the forms of a particular allergen. They also sell food "passports" that have the various forms of a particular allergen translated into most of the languages in the world. Finally, both Europe and Canada are far ahead of the U.S. in terms of accommodating food allergies -- in schools, in prepared foods, in grocery stores, in restaurants. It works there. It can work here.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 18, 2015 16:54:54 GMT -5
Yeah. They'll tell them to get the [snow leopard] out because they'll be damned if they're going to clean the grill and cross their fingers while Johnny Anaphylaxis eats his Russian roulette cakes with maple syrup. If they're compassionate and particularly bold, they'll tell the family that they're idiots for not having their son's lifesaving equipment with them whilst kicking them out of the restaurant. There's your "accountable" world, sir. Actually, the protocol might be telling the person they can't accommodate if they have a deadly allergy....instead of lying. Not really that difficult and a lot less downside. For whatever tiny fraction of restaurant owners become aware of this particular suit, you think the risk of a lawsuit will compel them to institute protocols where the risk of killing somebody didn't? Do you think the server who vouched for the pancakes knew how deathly allergic the son was to dairy, and how little allergen would have to be present to kill him, or do you think she perhaps believed the parents--with an intimate knowledge of their son's allergies--would be tacitly making that determination? This is stupidity. A tragedy occurs, but instead of holding this boy's parents accountable, you're advocating punishing the employer of an employee who no reasonable person would believe was qualified to determine whether a particular food, grill, etc. was safe to use with a boy she knew absolutely nothing about. You call it "accountability". In your perfect world, employees will have to be trained to never say anything to anyone out of fear that reckless, irresponsible people who have no business delegating critical judgments to others will nevertheless delegate critical judgments to others and then sue them for sake of "accountability" when they inevitably err in judgment. To heck with that. I don't want to live in an idiocracy where the business establishment I happen to patronize is legally responsible for my life-or-death decisions, especially when they don't realize that they're making those life-or-death decisions for me. You can call it "accountability", "making the world a safer place", or whatever you want. If Joe Customer is going to blindly accept my best-effort assessment of whether the pancake batter has enough allergen in it to kill his kid, I'm charging him $100.00 per question for my services, because apparently I'm now implicitly qualified to make that assessment on his behalf. I may as well get paid commensurately to the liability I'm taking on.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 18, 2015 19:24:08 GMT -5
Huh. That explains a lot actually. I see the more accurate analogy as you're driving down the road with your window down and when you pass a pedestrian you ask them if the light ahead is green or red. If they say red you stop, if they say green you don't. If they're ever wrong, or give you an off the cuff answer without actually looking, you're going to run a red light, possibly t-bone another vehicle, and might die. So, who's at fault? You for trusting random strangers to do something you should probably do yourself given the stakes. Or the random stranger who blurts out green when you ask without actually looking down the street to see what color the light is? You trust a random stranger not to undercook your food. You trust a random stranger not to cut lettuce on a cutting board that just held raw chicken. I don't see that checking ingredients or not putting cheese on my food to be any more difficult tasks than what servers and chefs do everyday.
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