justme
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Post by justme on Mar 17, 2015 13:25:28 GMT -5
With protocol #1 being reply with "we have undressed lettuce and water" to any question regarding allergies.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 13:25:59 GMT -5
He was eating pancakes that were labeled dairy free... Was he? Or was he eating pancakes the server simply claimed were dairy-free? Big difference IMO. I say that because a lot of servers don't understand what dairy-free actually means. The server or chef may not have checked the package to verify they were actually dairy free, but simply used the fact that they don't add milk to say they were dairy-free.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 17, 2015 13:32:45 GMT -5
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 13:32:45 GMT -5
No - the restaurant employee probably didn't check the labels on the pancake mix to be sure or guarantee that it didn't contain certain ingredients. The server took the cook's word for it, and the family took the word of the server after he/she relayed the message back to the table.
I still don't see how the restaurant can be held accountable.
Because if I say I have a severe dairy allergy & ask that it be verified that something is dairy-free, then I expect that they actually do so. If they can't, won't, or whatever, just say so. DO NOT walk back to the table & say they are dairy-free if you don't know & didn't actually check. Regardless of whether I actually die or not, the decision to lie about something so serious would make me extremely ill. Restaurants in this day & age should absolutely take allergies seriously.
Now I am very specific when I ask questions - I always mention the word whey because so many people don't know to look for that. I always ask about butter on the grill or on veggies. I don't know what this family did or did not ask or what really happened.
But there should absolutely be some liability for lying about ingredients or checking ingredients. Whether they are liable for his death or not, they would certainly be liable for making him ill & there should be consequences (if my scenario is actually what happened, there may have been accidently cross-contamination for all I know).
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 17, 2015 13:33:54 GMT -5
We've had restaurant staff bring out containers for DH to check the labels. We've had chefs come to the table and walk though what they can and cannot do for him. We've had servers double and triple checking. When we go somewhere new, DH calls and confirms that they can and will work with him, even when their website says they do gluten free and/or dairy free. If they're not, that's fine. We'll go somewhere else.
As mentioned, some places take allergens more seriously than others. We're lucky - DH isn't allergic, only sensitive to them. So extreme cross contamination is going to send him to the bathroom and he's going to be uncomfortable but isn't going to kill him.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:35:20 GMT -5
Well, blame away. So what? The kid is still dead.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 17, 2015 13:36:53 GMT -5
Well, blame away. So what? The kid is still dead. As God wished.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 17, 2015 13:37:08 GMT -5
Well, blame away. So what? The kid is still dead. Yes and I'm sure the family is going to mourn and the restaurant staff is shocked, saddened and afraid of what will happen. It's never good for a restaurant to make the news because of death.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 13:41:13 GMT -5
Well, blame away. So what? The kid is still dead. But maybe now the next kid won't die. This provides a lot of awareness to not only this restaurant, but to other restaurants as well.
Restaurants should be liable for verifying ingredients or saying they don't know the ingredients.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:41:51 GMT -5
Well, blame away. So what? The kid is still dead. But maybe now the next kid won't die. This provides a lot of awareness to not only this restaurant, but to other restaurants as well.
Restaurants should be liable for verifying ingredients or saying they don't know the ingredients.
Which does what for THEIR child?
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:42:39 GMT -5
Maybe instead of suing restaurants, they could go across the country educating people on the importance of always carrying your epi pen and calling 911?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 13:43:38 GMT -5
But maybe now the next kid won't die. This provides a lot of awareness to not only this restaurant, but to other restaurants as well.
Restaurants should be liable for verifying ingredients or saying they don't know the ingredients.
Which does what for THEIR child? sometimes people want to make sure others don't suffer a loss like they have. I can't believe I really had to just explain that.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:44:49 GMT -5
“He had just finished and he said, ‘We have to go now,” Cindy said.
Scott forgot to bring his epipen and nebulizer to the restaurant, which were both used to open his lungs and help him through an allergic reaction.
The family got home, but the medications were not working .
He just finished and said we have to Go Now , aka I am having a reaction. AKA call 911 not put him in the car and drive him home.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 13:46:12 GMT -5
I feel very sorry for this family but I'm also confused by their choices. I totally agree with this. I have benedryl with me 100% of the time. To not even have that, especially when eating something new is beyond me. And to try pancakes at a restaurant blows my mind. 95% of pancakes have milk in them - I have only seen 2 brands of powder mixes that were dairy free. I would never ask about pancakes at a restaurant. Hell, I never even go to breakfast at a restaurant if I can avoid it, breakfast is the hardest to do dairy-free.
The family screwed up big time. That doesn't mean the restaurant didn't screw up as well though. I wish we had more details about what actually happened.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 13:47:31 GMT -5
me too, Angel. that's why I had said on page 1 that I can't assign fault with what little we know. there definitely is more than just one mistake though, that's for sure.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:51:28 GMT -5
If they want to assign SOME negligence to the restaurant, fine. But, the parents should get bulk of the blame since they are intent to blame someone.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:54:21 GMT -5
How many people have ever even heard of an Anaphylactic Fatal Reaction to milk? Peanuts? Yes. Milk, I doubt many people have even heard of that. Most people think "lactose intolerant". The problem is everyone goes around proclaiming an "allergy" and meaning 1000 different things when they say allergy so that nobody really knows what they mean.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 13:55:27 GMT -5
It's like saying you are "allergic" to a medication. Yes the medicine may have given you an upset stomach or diarrhea or didn't sit well for a variety of reasons or had some side effect. That is not a histamine mediated ALLERGY. That is a side effect or reaction. But, everything is lumped together.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 17, 2015 13:56:56 GMT -5
We have signs like the one below in all our departments where we do food preps: Maybe restaurants should add it to their menu / by entrance and inform every customer before they place their order. Also that create a new business model maybe for new chefs/entrepreneur : dairy free, nut free, soy free, and whatever else free restaurant that targets people with allergies and their families that would like to enjoy a nice meal out with them.'
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 17, 2015 13:59:24 GMT -5
Which does what for THEIR child? sometimes people want to make sure others don't suffer a loss like they have. I can't believe I really had to just explain that. If they want to prevent others from experiencing the same loss, are they promoting forced sterilization for people who will be terrible parents?
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 17, 2015 14:11:55 GMT -5
Why does the restaurant need to be held accountable? And why do they need to take responsibility for the health concerns/life-threatening medical conditions of their patrons?
The restaurant is in the business to serve food. If a diner has such a severe allergic condition that they need to constantly be on guard about not coming in contact with certain foods, or cross-contamination issues, isn't it THEIR responsibility to take precautions? It's not the restaurant's or the restaurant staff's job.
The diner or other members of his family also were not in possession of or carrying his needed Epipen/meds with them.
Why should that be the restaurant's responsibility or blame? It isn't.
They served the food didn't they? They were notified of the allergy weren't they? The bottom line is that the restaurant didn't have a procedure in place for dealing with patrons that had food allergies. They could've handled in in 1 of 2 ways: 1) If you want to take the lazy way out, you can just tell people you can’t guarantee no cross-contamination and then you leave it at that. For my business, people ask me questions about product use that have FAR, FAR, FAR less downside and I choose to play it safe by saying “No, you should not do that”. 2) It’s not that difficult to put a procedure in place to deal with questions on food allergies. If you don’t trust your staff, then have the manager on-duty responsible for speaking with the guests. When you go to Disney World, they have someone come out to your table before they serve you. If I ran a restaurant, that’s how I would do it. Someone that has gone through a bit of training on how to answer questions and give proper disclaimers. If they didn’t understand that then, then they will now….and I think that’s the point.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 17, 2015 14:31:01 GMT -5
How many people have ever even heard of an Anaphylactic Fatal Reaction to milk? Peanuts? Yes. Milk, I doubt many people have even heard of that. Most people think "lactose intolerant". The problem is everyone goes around proclaiming an "allergy" and meaning 1000 different things when they say allergy so that nobody really knows what they mean. Well, there are a lot of things people don't know. It's the business of the restaurant owner to know though. He was playing with fire and he got burned.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Mar 17, 2015 15:47:07 GMT -5
How many people have ever even heard of an Anaphylactic Fatal Reaction to milk? Peanuts? Yes. Milk, I doubt many people have even heard of that. Most people think "lactose intolerant". The problem is everyone goes around proclaiming an "allergy" and meaning 1000 different things when they say allergy so that nobody really knows what they mean. Well, there are a lot of things people don't know. It's the business of the restaurant owner to know though. He was playing with fire and he got burned. You can argue and argue and argue. Their kid is dead. All the arguing doesn't change that.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Mar 17, 2015 16:09:16 GMT -5
The family is at fault for not bringing the correct meds. absolutely not. if the restaurant cannot serve someone who clearly declares their allergies, they are obliged to make that clear. state law determines what should and shouldn't be possible to accommodate, unfortunately, and varies by state. from the link posted, it seems as though the family has a presence at the restaurant in question. since I do not, I can't and won't decide fault one way or another. that said, as someone with an anaphylactic allergy of my own, I don't leave my own life in the hands of anyone else. I travel with meds, always. The responsibility for handling any physical problem lies with the person who has the problem. You typed: that said, as someone with an anaphylactic allergy of my own, I don't leave my own life in the hands of anyone else. I travel with meds, always."
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 16:11:48 GMT -5
Their request was crazy anyway. Have you guys ever worked as a line cook in a busy restauran? Cleaning a grill takes 30 minutes, and has to be done while it's turned off. In the middle of a busy breakfast shift, it's not happening. They're using it to cook 10+ orders at a time, and can't shut the whole thing off, wait for it to cool, clean it, and wait for it to reheat just to do 2 pancakes. They'd have half a dozen other tables walk out over the delay, or put another way, to make that a viable business decision they'd have to charge the family the average cost of a full table times the number of tables they could have cooked for during the 30-40 minutes the grill is down for his pancakes. They'd be like $200-300 pancakes. It isn't impossible to clean a hot grill - Hu Hot does it. Or just cook it in a pan. I've had restaurants offer to do that for me. That's fine. Just be honest about it. Don't guess if something has an allergen. The servers don't even need training beyond "if a customer says allergy, then have them talk to X". Have 1 or 2 people in charge of dealing with allergies, even if it just to say "unfortunately I can't guarantee what is in that item or that cross-contamination won't occur". I just get annoyed at the guessing, although it is usually obvious. I asked a server a few weeks ago about dairy in fajitas. Without skipping a beat she told me they don't have dairy. If you can answer that fast you either know exactly what you are talking about or don't have a clue (usually the latter). Given they were served with sour cream, I assume she is clueless. At which point I mention whey..says they don't have whey, again doesn't even pause. Then I ask if it is cooked it butter & suddenly get the blank stare with the "uhhhh". It is at that point she says she doesn't know & will ask the chef. Yep, cooked in butter. Just teach servers to not answer the question if they don't know the answer. I've been through this enough times to be able to tell if a person knows what they are talking about. Other people might just trust the first answer & assume the server is knowledgeable (this is a mistake, but with the allergy awareness nowadays, people assume that everyone gets it). Then you end up with a sick patron, which isn't in anybody's best interest. Far better to lose a difficult customer because you refuse to serve them than make them sick.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 17, 2015 16:23:32 GMT -5
absolutely not. if the restaurant cannot serve someone who clearly declares their allergies, they are obliged to make that clear. state law determines what should and shouldn't be possible to accommodate, unfortunately, and varies by state. from the link posted, it seems as though the family has a presence at the restaurant in question. since I do not, I can't and won't decide fault one way or another. that said, as someone with an anaphylactic allergy of my own, I don't leave my own life in the hands of anyone else. I travel with meds, always. The responsibility for handling any physical problem lies with the person who has the problem.You typed: that said, as someone with an anaphylactic allergy of my own, I don't leave my own life in the hands of anyone else. I travel with meds, always." Considering the number of ADA laws, I'm going to say this isn't true...at least not in the eyes of the law.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 16:25:50 GMT -5
absolutely not. if the restaurant cannot serve someone who clearly declares their allergies, they are obliged to make that clear. state law determines what should and shouldn't be possible to accommodate, unfortunately, and varies by state. from the link posted, it seems as though the family has a presence at the restaurant in question. since I do not, I can't and won't decide fault one way or another. that said, as someone with an anaphylactic allergy of my own, I don't leave my own life in the hands of anyone else. I travel with meds, always. The responsibility for handling any physical problem lies with the person who has the problem. You typed: that said, as someone with an anaphylactic allergy of my own, I don't leave my own life in the hands of anyone else. I travel with meds, always." I don't disagree with you. please re-read what I wrote - if the restaurant cannot accommodate a clearly declared allergy, they absolutely have an obligation to inform the customer that they cannot be accommodated.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 17, 2015 16:27:41 GMT -5
That's fine. Just be honest about it. Don't guess if something has an allergen. The servers don't even need training beyond "if a customer says allergy, then have them talk to X". Have 1 or 2 people in charge of dealing with allergies, even if it just to say "unfortunately I can't guarantee what is in that item or that cross-contamination won't occur". exactly. Joe's American Bar and Grill is a chain that does an excellent job with this. any food allergies, you get served by the manager, who walks your shit through the kitchen. Wagamama does the same.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Mar 17, 2015 16:33:40 GMT -5
If you know something can kill you and you play around with it, then you die, it is your fault.
Russian roulette in the restaurant.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Mar 17, 2015 16:33:49 GMT -5
Well enough to avoid cross contamination issues for somebody with a deadly allergy? If you were the cook, would you risk it? Using a separate pan is the only thing that makes sense, but now it's sitting on a grill with 10 other orders that might contain the allergen. No way to guarantee it won't get cross contaminated from something else spattering. If the grill itself is covered in butter, pancake mix residue that contains milk, and whatnot, how much are the pancakes picking up just from being next to those things as they burn off? The restaurant is screwed no matter what they do. You can't cook allergen free food at the same time, and right next to, food containing those allergens and guarantee it won't get contaminated. There's no way to do it that isn't insanely cost prohibitive to the restaurant. So what do you think is a better course of action? Roll the dice, hope there is no cross-contamination, and then risk someone dying after eating in your restaurant. Or have some simple procedures in place to handle situations like this. What they chose was the worst course of action.
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