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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2015 18:35:13 GMT -5
All credits are cool when it comes to graduation.
Back in the day (1970s), I did a summer program at a local university. I was appalled that I made B's in both courses so I sort of hid that when I applied to college. Fast forward to when I decided I wanted to graduate. Oh, did I forget to send a transcript? Bingo! 8 hours.
Ditto my son. When he was 14, I enrolled him in a rather basic algebra class at the local university to reinforce what he had learned. Four years later he went to college as a National Merit at the same university. Time came to have however many hours to sit for the CPA exam (maybe 150?). Those silly, basic hours suddenly mattered.
Never discount credit hours!
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mcsangel2
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Post by mcsangel2 on Mar 14, 2015 19:40:57 GMT -5
As it happens I know two math tutors, and they're both here in the store this afternoon playing D & D. Hanging out with nerds has its advantages. I talked to both of them about using some tutoring and khan academy to relearn algebra and test out over the summer. I haven't picked a major, so I might not need the precalc, calc, trig, stats math path, but I want to take it anyway just because paying to retake algebra seems a little pointless. In my state, you can test into the class you need, if you score highly enough, but you can't test out of it. You have to take the class, for credit.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Mar 14, 2015 20:02:14 GMT -5
As it happens I know two math tutors, and they're both here in the store this afternoon playing D & D. Hanging out with nerds has its advantages. I talked to both of them about using some tutoring and khan academy to relearn algebra and test out over the summer. I haven't picked a major, so I might not need the precalc, calc, trig, stats math path, but I want to take it anyway just because paying to retake algebra seems a little pointless. In my state, you can test into the class you need, if you score highly enough, but you can't test out of it. You have to take the class, for credit. At my CC, I tested out of Algebra. I think that is pretty common. I suspect that, after his algebra memory is jogged, SDG will be bored out of his mind in a CC Algebra class. I suggested to SDG to check out the requirements at the state U that he thinks he may transfer to in order to see the class requirements. At mine, it seemed like some kind of pre-calc or calc, plus stats, was required for most majors.
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mcsangel2
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Post by mcsangel2 on Mar 14, 2015 20:05:27 GMT -5
In my state, you can test into the class you need, if you score highly enough, but you can't test out of it. You have to take the class, for credit. At my CC, I tested out of Algebra. I think that is pretty common. I suspect that, after his algebra memory is jogged, SDG will be bored out of his mind in a CC Algebra class. I suggested to SDG to check out the requirements at the state U that he thinks he may transfer to in order to see the class requirements. At mine, it seemed like some kind of pre-calc or calc, plus stats, was required for most majors. That's true of mine, as well. But they're all lower level course numbers, so you could take them at the cc and save money by not taking them at the university. The 3 classes I referenced in my post were consecutive, but still had to test/place into the first one if you hadn't recently taken the previous one.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 14, 2015 22:34:06 GMT -5
In all seriousness: the leading numbers are called "coefficients" ("exponents" are the superscripted numbers), and you should be mindful of the fact that the above procedure doesn't work if the x2 coefficient isn't 1 (or more generally, if the roots aren't integers). Oops, you are right! My bad. You can also use the quadratic formula, but it's very long and annoying.
Are you sure the first procedure doesn't work if the first coefficient isn't 1? I know that *sometimes* it doesn't work, and you need to use the quadratic formula, but I thought sometimes it did.
Suppose we're given a 2nd order polynomial with integer coefficients and told that it has rational roots. This polynomial will have form (3) below, and we prefer to factor it into form (2). We can readily observe a few things: - letting the x2 coefficient be a, if |a| = 1, then |B| = |D| = 1, and your technique is perfectly valid
- we can calculate all the possible combinations of B and D by finding the factors of a
- letting the constant coefficient be c, we can calculate all the possible combinations of A and C by finding the factors of c, as you suggest
- if a is prime, then we know that either |B| = 1 or |D| = 1
- we can assume B and D are positive and that D ≥ B without loss of generality
Hence let us factor 15x 2 + x - 2 as an example, and we are told a priori that the roots are rational. By rules 1 and 5, our choices for B and D are {1,15} and {3,5}. By rule 2, our choices for A and C are {±1,∓2} and {±2,∓1}. Without the quadratic formula, I submit that the easiest way to factor is to compute AD + BC for all possible BD/AC combinations and select the combination where AD + BC = b, where b is the x coefficient. Hence in this case we want AD + BC = 1. Going through the motions, we find that (-1)·(5) + (3)·(2) = 1, hence the polynomial factors as (3x - 1)(5x + 2).
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 14, 2015 22:37:12 GMT -5
What?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 14, 2015 22:41:05 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 14:33:07 GMT -5
If I'm teaching the kids, can I count that? Otherwise I'm not answering the question...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 15, 2015 15:42:44 GMT -5
So if you have forgotten how to do the math because you have lived a significant portion of your life without doing the math, how important is it for you to know?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 16, 2015 8:46:02 GMT -5
When I was in college I took a course to fill a requirement that had a primary text called "Mathematics, Something to Think About"
A dummer course I've yet to see.
A future Governor of our state sat right beside me.
He managed to balance the budget for 8 years. Being an accountant people always think I am good at math. I just laugh. I say the hardest thing I do is multiplication and division. And I use a calculator or computer to do either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 8:46:34 GMT -5
I'm guessing his finance guys might have had a higher math? That's a great story though... I'd be telling it all the time!
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Mar 16, 2015 8:52:00 GMT -5
Yeah, I do the books at work, so I know what you mean. I'm not a CPA like you though. We have a CPA for the taxes and stuff.
I'm actually pretty good with basic math. It's the stuff like Virgil posted in #154 that makes my eyes glaze over. CPAs don't have to do any harder math, either.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Mar 16, 2015 10:33:53 GMT -5
CPAs don't have to do any harder math, either. No, but you have to pay really close attention to all that IRS-y stuff. And even get it right. I know many CPA's who don't know beans about the IRS-y stuff. A CPA is a designation of competence on financial accounting matters. The tax portion is but a small part of the exam. Unfortunately right now there isn't any real strong designation as to competence on US tax matters. Yea, you can sit for the EA (enrolled agent) exam, but even that only scratches the surface.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 16, 2015 12:09:08 GMT -5
Well, we now have a 3000 page Dodd-Frank bill that 'saves' the public from predatory lending, predatory banking, yada. Plus a bunch of bills to "demonize Pay Day loans" to 'save' people from mis-using the product. And we have home-buyers that don't fully grasp that a bigger loan means higher monthly payments? Or how interest works? Much of that stems from Academia's anti-math directives about 30 years ago that "math is hard and it is not needed in real life".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2015 13:11:15 GMT -5
Or maybe we are focusing on the wrong things? Maybe we need to forget everyone needs Algebra II, and just make sure everyone can apply the basics.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 16, 2015 13:16:16 GMT -5
Or maybe we are focusing on the wrong things? Maybe we need to forget everyone needs Algebra II, and just make sure everyone can apply the basics. And how to download the app that will do the actual calculation.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 16, 2015 13:22:42 GMT -5
I think that most people know more about interest rates, refinancing, balloon payments, etc. than we give them credit for... they just don't care. That's all paid with future money, while they get to enjoy their [whatever] right now.
IMO it's not a math problem, it's a deferred gratification problem.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 16, 2015 13:48:50 GMT -5
I think that most people know more about interest rates, refinancing, balloon payments, etc. than we give them credit for... they just don't care. That's all paid with future money, while they get to enjoy their [whatever] right now. IMO it's not a math problem, it's a deferred gratification problem. Or a question of how desperate they are. If say someones car breaks down and they need to fix it or lose their job their only choice may actually be either suck up paying 400% interest at a payday lender or lose their job. Assuming they don't have a family or friend who would lend them the money which in our family they would all come to us that isn't happening! IMO the problem isn't that they are too dumb to understand the consequences, so much as we may not understand exactly what their choices really are. And I have been looking for a used car. Man the prices are crazy. I was looking for a used nissan versa but the prices on them is literally not much less than what they would cost new, except for a 3-4 year old one with 40K miles on it. No way would I pay that for the used version but if someone can't afford the cost/finance or the rise in insurance I can see it being an almost no win situation.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 16, 2015 13:55:35 GMT -5
Very true -- especially since it's hard to get a bank loan on something that is older or cheaper. My friend's (idiot) husband totaled her older SUV a few weeks ago and they are still without a car, since the payoff amount ($3Kish) wasn't enough to buy a decent used vehicle and neither of them has the credit for a new one. DH has offered to help them find something reliable in their price range but it's a difficult process.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 16, 2015 16:43:23 GMT -5
Given how useful math is, I'm often astounded at how little of it people know.
If you want to talk to computers and other machines, you do it using math.
If you want to make sense of investment strategies, various financial instruments, macroeconomics, etc., you do it using math.
If you want to be a good general problem solver, math is one of the handiest tools in your toolkit.
If you want to be a good abstract thinker, math is one of the best tools to challenge and develop your mind.
If you want to understand the physical laws that govern the universe, the more mathematical knowledge you have, the more understanding you'll gain.
If you want to pick up good habits such as thoroughness, numeracy, structured thinking, logical thinking, familiarity with large and small quantities, etc., math is the best way to pick them up.
Math isn't just the study of numbers. Numbers, arithmetic, and basic algebra just happen to be the tip of the iceberg that kids are taught in high school. Mathematics is the study of incredible systems of logic, mind-blowing patterns, 10-dimensional shapes, networks, knots, crosswords, fractals, algorithms, swarms, chaos, heat, light, sound, luck, chess, sets, mazes, infinities, systems where 1 + 1 = 0, systems where the further apart two numbers are the closer together they are, and a million other things besides.
If you stop learning about math after high school, it's like learning how to put on your skis, put on your boots, and safely ride the chair lift to the top of the ski hill, but then wiping your brow and walking home. You don't even get to experience what math is really about.
It's a deep flaw in our system of education, and unfortunately it hasn't gotten any better in more than a century. It has to be self-directed.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 16, 2015 17:24:43 GMT -5
Ehh... sorta. You may have noticed this entire industry that sprang up which allows non-computer/non-math people to use them anyway through things like graphical interfaces, intuitive menus, and whatnot. Some guy named Bill something or other was in that business. Heard he did pretty well for himself. Bill Fence maybe... something like that. Those people can't talk to them like I do.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 16, 2015 17:30:26 GMT -5
Ehh... sorta. You may have noticed this entire industry that sprang up which allows non-computer/non-math people to use them anyway through things like graphical interfaces, intuitive menus, and whatnot. Some guy named Bill something or other was in that business. Heard he did pretty well for himself. Bill Fence maybe... something like that. Those people can't talk to them like I do. True. Perhaps the computers are thankful.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 16, 2015 17:37:01 GMT -5
Those people can't talk to them like I do. True. Perhaps the computers are thankful.
while( !0 ) universe->get_being( "laniakea::milky_way::sol::earth::human::virgil" )->thank();
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 16, 2015 17:45:14 GMT -5
Ehh... sorta. You may have noticed this entire industry that sprang up which allows non-computer/non-math people to use them anyway through things like graphical interfaces, intuitive menus, and whatnot. Some guy named Bill something or other was in that business. Heard he did pretty well for himself. Bill Fence maybe... something like that. Not sure if I'd call it springing up exactly. I mean Xerox Parc is how many years long gone? Apple using the computer is just like an office paradigm and making it easy for teachers (infuriating for Optimist back then) ... its a shift though you are correct Mr. Gates helped foster.
ETD: I skimmed SDG's post too quickly and I see when certain things are mentioned. I missed all of the post was a poke at Virgil's comment, not just the end.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 16, 2015 17:47:50 GMT -5
True. Perhaps the computers are thankful.
while( !0 ) universe->get_being( "laniakea::milky_way::sol::earth::human::virgil" )->thank(); You can code them to do stuff, but what machine code do they dream when you aren't there?
I could lay hands on old computers and make them work. Not sure if that was thanks or just my electric personality though.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 16, 2015 17:57:43 GMT -5
I was being facetious. Notice the raspberry at the end of the post, and its overall tone. This is the problem with you math inclined folks; you apparently didn't pay attention in English, and don't bother learning social norms. We both know I am not socially normal dammit! on your English, write better!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 16, 2015 19:44:39 GMT -5
Given how useful math is, I'm often astounded at how little of it people know. If you want to talk to computers and other machines, you do it using math. If you want to make sense of investment strategies, various financial instruments, macroeconomics, etc., you do it using math. If you want to be a good general problem solver, math is one of the handiest tools in your toolkit. If you want to be a good abstract thinker, math is one of the best tools to challenge and develop your mind. If you want to understand the physical laws that govern the universe, the more mathematical knowledge you have, the more understanding you'll gain. If you want to pick up good habits such as thoroughness, numeracy, structured thinking, logical thinking, familiarity with large and small quantities, etc., math is the best way to pick them up. Math isn't just the study of numbers. Numbers, arithmetic, and basic algebra just happen to be the tip of the iceberg that kids are taught in high school. Mathematics is the study of incredible systems of logic, mind-blowing patterns, 10-dimensional shapes, networks, knots, crosswords, fractals, algorithms, swarms, chaos, heat, light, sound, luck, chess, sets, mazes, infinities, systems where 1 + 1 = 0, systems where the further apart two numbers are the closer together they are, and a million other things besides. If you stop learning about math after high school, it's like learning how to put on your skis, put on your boots, and safely ride the chair lift to the top of the ski hill, but then wiping your brow and walking home. You don't even get to experience what math is really about. It's a deep flaw in our system of education, and unfortunately it hasn't gotten any better in more than a century. It has to be self-directed. "There are only four subjects worth studying: Math and science, and science and math."
Walter O'Brien, Scorpion
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 16, 2015 21:33:47 GMT -5
I like that show, but he's wrong. Thankfully they show him being stupid now and then. I enjoyed him forgetting one can not count on street conditions when he got his ass beat in the street car race.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 16, 2015 22:42:20 GMT -5
There are three kinds of people in the world. Those who are good at math, and those who aren't.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Mar 16, 2015 23:21:27 GMT -5
When I was in college I took a course to fill a requirement that had a primary text called "Mathematics, Something to Think About"
A dummer course I've yet to see.
A future Governor of our state sat right beside me.
He managed to balance the budget for 8 years. Being an accountant people always think I am good at math. I just laugh. I say the hardest thing I do is multiplication and division. And I use a calculator or computer to do either. I am a CPA while my DH isn't. He can do the math in his head much quicker than I can. Give me the calculator!
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