What ISIS really wants

[Value Buy]

I know this is Fox News, and many here will refuse to watch, but this is an interesting interview.
Fairly long, but worth it.


video.foxnews.com/v/4080623544001/what-isis-really-wants-an-in-depth-examination/?playlist_id=2694949843001#sp=show-clips

[djAdvocate]

Feb 26, 2015 21:54:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I know this is Fox News, and many here will refuse to watch, but this is an interesting interview.
Fairly long, but worth it.


video.foxnews.com/v/4080623544001/what-isis-really-wants-an-in-depth-examination/?playlist_id=2694949843001#sp=show-clips

right.  they are a death cult.  just like Obama said. 

[Value Buy]

Feb 26, 2015 21:59:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 26, 2015 21:54:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I know this is Fox News, and many here will refuse to watch, but this is an interesting interview.
Fairly long, but worth it.


video.foxnews.com/v/4080623544001/what-isis-really-wants-an-in-depth-examination/?playlist_id=2694949843001#sp=show-clips

right.  they are a death cult.  just like Obama said. 

Are you referring to his feelings about Fox News?
We know he feels ISIS is the misunderstood jv team.
He told us so.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 26, 2015 21:59:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 26, 2015 21:54:32 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I know this is Fox News, and many here will refuse to watch, but this is an interesting interview.
Fairly long, but worth it.


video.foxnews.com/v/4080623544001/what-isis-really-wants-an-in-depth-examination/?playlist_id=2694949843001#sp=show-clips

right.  they are a death cult.  just like Obama said. 

Agree. And comments like this from one of the three men in NY back up the death cult statement:

"I am in USA now but we don't have any arms. But is it possible to commit ourselves as dedicated martyrs anyway while here? What I'm saying is, to shoot Obama and then get shot ourselves, will it do? That will strike fear in the hearts of infidels."

3 men try to join ISIS: Here's what we know

I never understood the wanting to die thing. I would want to live to see the results of my action(s). But then I don't believe in an afterlife and the supposed rewards thing either.

[zibazinski]

If I lived the way they lived, death is preferable.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 26, 2015 22:02:47 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Feb 26, 2015 21:59:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

right.  they are a death cult.  just like Obama said. 

Are you referring to his feelings about Fox News?
We know he feels ISIS is the misunderstood jv team.
He told us so.

i am not sure he said misunderstood.

but yes, they are a JV death cult.  if you want to see what a REAL death cult looks like, check out the Rwandan civil war.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 26, 2015 22:10:07 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 26, 2015 21:59:56 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

right.  they are a death cult.  just like Obama said. 

Agree. And comments like this from one of the three men in NY back up the death cult statement:

"I am in USA now but we don't have any arms. But is it possible to commit ourselves as dedicated martyrs anyway while here? What I'm saying is, to shoot Obama and then get shot ourselves, will it do? That will strike fear in the hearts of infidels."

3 men try to join ISIS: Here's what we know

I never understood the wanting to die thing. I would want to live to see the results of my action(s). But then I don't believe in an afterlife and the supposed rewards thing either.

i am not sure that "wanting to die" is the correct way of viewing it.  i would not even say that they don't fear death, although that case could be made.  i would say that they think their lives are small in the scope of their sacred honor.  it is actually not a very uncommon idea.  i can't say much more without making their horrific acts sound brave.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 27, 2015 8:06:33 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

If I lived the way they lived, death is preferable.

most terrorists are middle class or better:  they are educated, come from privaledged backgrounds, and have all of the advantages that most of us have.

still prefer death?

[rockon]

So giving them jobs won't fix the problem?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 27, 2015 15:01:26 GMT -5 rockon said:

So giving them jobs won't fix the problem?

LOL!

well, we all have to die, bro.  i think the emptiness of the lives of these people is pretty sad.

but still, they have to be defeated.  my sympathy doesn't extend too far. 

[mmhmm]

Feb 27, 2015 14:55:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 27, 2015 8:06:33 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

If I lived the way they lived, death is preferable.

most terrorists are middle class or better:  they are educated, come from privaledged backgrounds, and have all of the advantages that most of us have.

still prefer death?

Those are the terrorists you hear about, or read about in the media. Those are the visible, heat-seeking terrorists. Most terrorist organization members aren't of that ilk. Then again, most of those who are part of these "organizations" are fodder - nothing more.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 27, 2015 15:08:01 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Feb 27, 2015 14:55:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

most terrorists are middle class or better:  they are educated, come from privaledged backgrounds, and have all of the advantages that most of us have.

still prefer death?

Those are the terrorists you hear about, or read about in the media. Those are the visible, heat-seeking terrorists. Most terrorist organization members aren't of that ilk. Then again, most of those who are part of these "organizations" are fodder - nothing more.

unfortunately, the lives of most terrorists are poorly documented.  that fact probably skews the data a bit in favor of the middle class.  those that we CAN document well are the OBL's of the world.  he was quite privileged.

[mmhmm]

Feb 27, 2015 15:10:17 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 27, 2015 15:08:01 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Those are the terrorists you hear about, or read about in the media. Those are the visible, heat-seeking terrorists. Most terrorist organization members aren't of that ilk. Then again, most of those who are part of these "organizations" are fodder - nothing more.

unfortunately, the lives of most terrorists are poorly documented.  that fact probably skews the data a bit in favor of the middle class.  those that we CAN document well are the OBL's of the world.  he was quite privileged.

Yep. Those we know about are very, very different from the hordes they manipulate through threats and misinformation.

[Value Buy]

This is from CNN


www.cnn.com/2015/02/25/world/isis-western-recruits/index.html

[djAdvocate]

Feb 28, 2015 11:49:34 GMT -5 Ratchets said:

Feb 27, 2015 14:55:51 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

most terrorists are middle class or better:  they are educated, come from privaledged backgrounds, and have all of the advantages that most of us have.

still prefer death?

I guarantee you the average ISIS members is not middle class and privileged. For every one American/European they recruit, there is 1,000 from Iran, Afghanistan, etc.

i didn't say ISIS, but just to entertain your argument for a minute, in what sense can you "guarantee" what you just said.  does "guarantee" mean "can document"?  if so, by all means, present your documentation.

[EVT1]

I don't think the two are the same really- the Kamikaze were defending the homeland as a last ditch effort- suicide bombers are defending nothing and their intention is to strike fear into the general population of any given country.

I do not see narcissism having anything to do with it.

I understand why the Kamikaze are revered- and I agree.  If WW2 showed anything it showed the 100% commitment of the Japanese soldiers to the cause- right or wrong.  In the face of certain defeat they never gave up and it took atomic bombs and setting fires to cities to end it.  I can respect that- I have no respect for some asshole that blows him or herself up in a restaurant.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 28, 2015 22:46:03 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I don't think the two are the same really- the Kamikaze were defending the homeland as a last ditch effort- suicide bombers are defending nothing and their intention is to strike fear into the general population of any given country.

I do not see narcissism having anything to do with it.

I understand why the Kamikaze are revered- and I agree.  If WW2 showed anything it showed the 100% commitment of the Japanese soldiers to the cause- right or wrong.  In the face of certain defeat they never gave up and it took atomic bombs and setting fires to cities to end it.  I can respect that- I have no respect for some asshole that blows him or herself up in a restaurant.

i think you need to read "Dying To Win" by Pape. 

he contends that suicide bombers are reacting to what they see as "foreign invasion".  i think it would be well to note that ISIS is not in this pattern, which is probably one of the fundamental reasons WHY AQ and ISIS don't get along.  ISIS sees the way forward as a military one, and AQ really does NOT.  so, i am not making any claim about ISIS, and if you were, i don't really have much to say about it, unless they happen to fit the pattern of suicide terrorists, who do indeed have a great deal in common with kamakazies (Pape profiles both of them in the book).

edit: we agree on one point, however, i think that narcissists are actually on the opposite end of the spectrum from your typical suicide bomber, who is a zealous follower, not a charismatic leader- a disciple, not a prophet.

[djAdvocate]

for those of you not interested in reading lengthy tomes on the subject, i would recommend watching a film called "The Battle Of Algiers".  it really explains what we are seeing right now quite well, even though it is half a century old.

[EVT1]

Feb 28, 2015 22:59:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 28, 2015 22:46:03 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

I don't think the two are the same really- the Kamikaze were defending the homeland as a last ditch effort- suicide bombers are defending nothing and their intention is to strike fear into the general population of any given country.

I do not see narcissism having anything to do with it.

I understand why the Kamikaze are revered- and I agree.  If WW2 showed anything it showed the 100% commitment of the Japanese soldiers to the cause- right or wrong.  In the face of certain defeat they never gave up and it took atomic bombs and setting fires to cities to end it.  I can respect that- I have no respect for some asshole that blows him or herself up in a restaurant.

i think you need to read "Dying To Win" by Pape. 

he contends that suicide bombers are reacting to what they see as "foreign invasion".  i think it would be well to note that ISIS is not in this pattern, which is probably one of the fundamental reasons WHY AQ and ISIS don't get along.  ISIS sees the way forward as a military one, and AQ really does NOT.  so, i am not making any claim about ISIS, and if you were, i don't really have much to say about it, unless they happen to fit the pattern of suicide terrorists, who do indeed have a great deal in common with kamakazies (Pape profiles both of them in the book).

edit: we agree on one point, however, i think that narcissists are actually on the opposite end of the spectrum from your typical suicide bomber, who is a zealous follower, not a charismatic leader- a disciple, not a prophet.

You of all people throw out a book about suicide terrorism?

Japan's suicidal military was exactly killing themselves for the greater good- standing your ground to an absurd level. 

[djAdvocate]

Mar 1, 2015 0:25:00 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Feb 28, 2015 22:59:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i think you need to read "Dying To Win" by Pape. 

he contends that suicide bombers are reacting to what they see as "foreign invasion".  i think it would be well to note that ISIS is not in this pattern, which is probably one of the fundamental reasons WHY AQ and ISIS don't get along.  ISIS sees the way forward as a military one, and AQ really does NOT.  so, i am not making any claim about ISIS, and if you were, i don't really have much to say about it, unless they happen to fit the pattern of suicide terrorists, who do indeed have a great deal in common with kamakazies (Pape profiles both of them in the book).

edit: we agree on one point, however, i think that narcissists are actually on the opposite end of the spectrum from your typical suicide bomber, who is a zealous follower, not a charismatic leader- a disciple, not a prophet.

You of all people throw out a book about suicide terrorism?

Japan's suicidal military was exactly killing themselves for the greater good- standing your ground to an absurd level. 

again, i think i am just going to stand pat here.  that book makes precisely the case i described: that most suicide terrorism is quite similar in nature.  it stems from what is seen as an occupation by a foreign element (it need not need to be overt, as it was in Japan- thought it usually is quite overt).  that manifests itself in many different ways.  however what you will almost never see is suicide terrorism used when there is little or no sense of "otherness" in the population.

honestly, it is just too deep a topic for the boards.  i have tried before, but it is easier just to refer people to that book.  he does an excellent job, and i think he builds a compelling case.