So do we arm the Ukraine or not..??

[deziloooooo]

There is lots of rhetoric right now , plus fighting too..supposedly over 5000 people have been killed ..who knows the wounded and maimed..Seems all Western side are united in some way against Russia and Putin..lets face it, when it comes to Russia it is Putin though it seems he does have the support of the people in what ever he does..or at least the great majority and the rest..usually intimidated.

Personally I don't see us being able to militarily have a effect here...to far away, right next to Russia, no will of country, people to get involved militarily...yet to just stand by and let Russia do what it wants as far as expansion ...like it is the 20th century not the 21st...

In arming, I would take the cowards way out...go through some third party....not admit anything..defensive weapons that  could degrade and hurt the other side...and sanction Russia to death...However , to do that means no cooperation from them on anything..Iran, Syria, ISIL, Middle East..their ending energy, gas and oil , to Europe..their turning to possible China as a Allie..who knows..There are so many different scenarios that can happen..plus they have how many thousand Nucs and top iof the line delivery systems again..?

Glad I am not a POTUS...to much for me here...


www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/02/obama-putin-ukraine-150210231720293.html







www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/02/obama-putin-ukraine-150210231720293.html

[deziloooooo]

It seems that after 17 hours of all night negotiations there is a agreement on a cease fire...hopefully....still to be seen if it holds...

america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/2/12/Putin-says-leaders-agree-on-Ukraine-cease-fire-deal.html

[Wisconsin Beth]

www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/war_stories/2015/02/how_to_defeat_putin_in_ukraine_the_west_should_help_kiev_succeed_not_send.html

Seems to think that the best way to win over there isn't militarily - it's monetarily.  Show Russia that there IS a better life type of thing.

[mroped]

When I was in contact with them, in the 80s Ukrainians were part of the Soviet troops so they were mixed and matched with all other nations of the Soviet Union. 
At the time they were very well trained, equipped etc.
After the fall of Soviet Union, they continued their alliance with the Russians but most of their equipment seemed to be outdated or "second hand" in a way.
Today, those that I encountered are most likely in mid to high positions in the Ukrainian military. Very knowledgable, very determined but if they don't have the means to carry on a confrontation what can they do?

If we or anybody else stay out of the conflict but elect to help them through the back chanels, that would be better than us geting involved. Supplying them with equipment that they are familiar with -AK 47s, AG7s and just pitch in our own rations for sustenance and some non descriptive clothing would be ideal.
No boots on the ground for us, they get to stand on their own and choose their fight. They have the know-how and most likely the man power. How well they are trained? No idea!

On the other hand, part of me is thinking "just stay the hell away!" 
This all might just be a "game" that politicians and military high command play so they could get some funding for other purposes, draw some atention and possibly enter easier into NATO. All at the expence of the average people.

[deziloooooo]

Feb 13, 2015 17:30:04 GMT -5 mroped said:

When I was in contact with them, in the 80s Ukrainians were part of the Soviet troops so they were mixed and matched with all other nations of the Soviet Union. 
At the time they were very well trained, equipped etc.
After the fall of Soviet Union, they continued their alliance with the Russians but most of their equipment seemed to be outdated or "second hand" in a way.
Today, those that I encountered are most likely in mid to high positions in the Ukrainian military. Very knowledgable, very determined but if they don't have the means to carry on a confrontation what can they do?

If we or anybody else stay out of the conflict but elect to help them through the back chanels, that would be better than us geting involved. Supplying them with equipment that they are familiar with -AK 47s, AG7s and just pitch in our own rations for sustenance and some non descriptive clothing would be ideal.
No boots on the ground for us, they get to stand on their own and choose their fight. They have the know-how and most likely the man power. How well they are trained? No idea!

On the other hand, part of me is thinking "just stay the hell away!" 
This all might just be a "game" that politicians and military high command play so they could get some funding for other purposes, draw some atention and possibly enter easier into NATO. All at the expence of the average people.

I agree with you as far as staying out of a direct conflick with Russia...The leadership of the Ukranians' have lived next to Russia for ever and ever..Soviet, before that Tsars' and should be in a better idea of how to deal with Putin...{ Putin is Russia today IMHO..} To go head to head with him would be a disaster IMHO so they will have to compromise their feelings of complete independence and thumbing their nose at him... give him lip service , don't make waves..Crimea is gone..it was basically a Russian province and a necessity for Russia because of the outlet Black Sea and naval base...Our mistake would be to give a false feeling of hope for a complete break from Russian influence...that would be a disaster as there would be no way to back it up with out a all out war with Russia...

[billisonboard]

Feb 13, 2015 17:30:04 GMT -5 mroped said:

... Supplying them with equipment that they are familiar with -AK 47s, AG7s and just pitch in our own rations for sustenance and some non descriptive clothing would be ideal.
...

Don't be silly. Military aid is for the benefit of American arms makers.

[mroped]

AKs are in various models made by most if not all former Warsaw Treaty members including the Chinese and NKoreans. I'm prety sure that some "entrepreneurial" American stuck his/her fingers in one of them so we can buy from there!

And as one that used both( M16 and AKs) I can tell you that for the average infantry man an AK is a much better fit. Not as acurate as the M16s but takes a lot more abuse and an indefinite amount of negligence before one goes bust.

The problem with trying to involve ourselves in the conflict is the fact that from the time of Gengis Khan's daughters people living in today's ukrainian teritories have aligned themselves with those arround the Moskow and the Baltic Sea area. Not much with the rest of Europe!
Getting in the midle of that might be similar with actively looking for trouble.

This is a case where "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't work.

[deziloooooo]

I have a thought..just my own idea, that the Pres really has no intention of arming the Ukraine  but just bluffing Putin.... the threat of doing so just might be   enough to give Putin pause ..the last thing he, Putin,  needs really is a shooting war that might involve not just his surrogate in the break away province, but if enough casualties were happening, might mean Russian troops might have to get involved ...and then where do we go from there..and along with such actions would be even more and stiffer sanctions...These sanctions seem to really cause a lot of grief for countries..Just a thought of mine.

Possible we will have to wait till after Obama is out of office and read his real intentions in one of those many books he is going to write once he is a civilian again...

[mroped]

The AG7 that I mentioned before and it's "bigger brother"AG9 are shoulder held antitank/heavy equipment/truck grenade launcher. We called them "piggy launcher" or "the clarinet",piggy being the shot  and "clarinet" because of the shape of the launcher itself not to mention that the sound of the grenade comming at you will be the last song that you'll ever hear.
A well placed shot can take out a T34 with no problem and both launchers have a decent range- upwards of 1500-2000 yds.

At a training in 88 in the spring they showed us one of their "better" toys. That was a folding launch tube that used a shot of about 2# shaped like a rocket for antiaircraft.

Also the 7.62 RPK or the 7.62 company machine gun can be very efficient against aircraft.
They both can use perforant-incendiary rounds that can cause some major damage to anything flying.

I'm not sure if they still have mandatory service in Russia or Ukraine.
If they still do then the russian won't send any "drafted" personel in. Whomever makes it there will be a profesional soldier and those dudes can be quite scary.
Luckly for the Ukrainians the disputed area is small and they can do the same and no matter how "poor" they are they SHOULD have the means to do it on their own.
That's the reason why I'm skeptical and think that there is a hidden issue with that.