Home improvement advice needed

[Deleted]

We have a tiny hall bath, which is what company uses.  Three or four years ago, the toilet overflowed and led to a gray stain in the vinyl.  The toilet overflowed last night.  Rather than wake me up, DH tried to deal with it himself.  It took him almost 2 hours, which doesn't really make sense.  But it managed to ruin four of the basement ceiling tiles.

i know the real problem is that the pipes are clogged.  I plunged, and it now seems ok.  But I want a new toilet.  The house was built in 1980, and I am sure it is original.  I also want someone to pull up the stained vinyl and check/repair the subflooring as necessary.  I also want new shoe moulding because whoever put in the last vinyl reinstalled it after breaking some of it.

Before anyone suggests tile, the floors flex too much.  I put tile in the kitchen, and the grout is cracking in several places.  I will stick with what works, but I want it to not be so gross.

We don't know how to move forward because we seem to be dealing with two types of professionals.  How do we coordinate this?  I know lots of DIYers could remove/install a new toilet, but then there is the clogged pipe issue.  And DH hates the "good old boys" system.  He blames that for the cracked grout.

where do we start?

[swamp]

Snaking the toilet line. 

[alabamagal]

Fix toilet flow problem first then floors and subfloors if needed

We just did some major floor repairs in the house we are trying to sell. I told them to replace the floor with the cheapest neutral color tile. I was surprised at how good the tile looked

[Deleted]

So you would get a plumber out first to snake the lines and replace the toilet.  Then get someone out to pull the toilet and replace the flooring?

[Tiny]

  what clogs a 3 inch pipe (or maybe a 4 inch one if there's more than one toilet using the main)  and that can get past the S shaped part of a toilet??  

You know what... I don't want to know...  

OK, back to the actual project.    Luckily for you it's not a main bathroom!   So you don't need it up and running within 24 hours.

I'd start with a call to a plumber (cause whatever is clogging your drain - seems scary to me ) .    Then depending on the results of that - I'd consider doing a DIY tear out of the existing vinyl floor  and whatever else you hate about the bathroom.    I'd maybe ask the plumber to NOT put the toilet back right away - if the water is shut off you can plug the drain pipe and do your deconstruction.   I'd mess with the basement ceiling a this point too.    You'll need to fix the floor before you install a new toilet.  

If you don't want to call a plumber right away -- maybe someone handy can help you remove the toilet?  That will all depend on if there's a water shutoff for the toilet and if it's functional or not (I have experience with 50 to 100 year old houses so both of those things could happen).    Once you get the toilet out you can work on the floor/ceiling at your convenience. .

I don't have a preference for flooring- or lighting or sink or anything else - it's whatever works - is good.

I'd MEASURE and MEASURE again before buying a new toilet.  They have fancy smancy taller toilets (so it's easier to sit down on) with bigger longer bowls (I guess so you don't miss?) which may or may not work in your 1/2 bath.  

FWIW:  the newer low water use toilets (like you ALREADY have in your house) don't always cope well with a lot of TP - especially the new thicker cushiony stuff. If you are using some sort of disposable wipes (or if you are tossing lotion-y facial tissue in the toilet)  the paper might not be making it past the 'S' shaped part of the toilet... and that's where the 'clog' is happening. 

You might want to look for a toilet with a powerful flush (that's still low - water usage).   My brother is quite proud of the toilet he installed... it's so "powerful" you can't clog it...    and again I didn't ask for specifics cause I didn't want to know   

  

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2015 22:54:16 GMT -5 Tiny said:

  what clogs a 3 inch pipe (or maybe a 4 inch one if there's more than one toilet using the main)  and that can get past the S shaped part of a toilet??  

You know what... I don't want to know...  

OK, back to the actual project.    Luckily for you it's not a main bathroom!   So you don't need it up and running within 24 hours.

I'd start with a call to a plumber (cause whatever is clogging your drain - seems scary to me ) .    Then depending on the results of that - I'd consider doing a DIY tear out of the existing vinyl floor  and whatever else you hate about the bathroom.    I'd maybe ask the plumber to NOT put the toilet back right away - if the water is shut off you can plug the drain pipe and do your deconstruction.   I'd mess with the basement ceiling a this point too.    You'll need to fix the floor before you install a new toilet.  

If you don't want to call a plumber right away -- maybe someone handy can help you remove the toilet?  That will all depend on if there's a water shutoff for the toilet and if it's functional or not (I have experience with 50 to 100 year old houses so both of those things could happen).    Once you get the toilet out you can work on the floor/ceiling at your convenience. .

I don't have a preference for flooring- or lighting or sink or anything else - it's whatever works - is good.

I'd MEASURE and MEASURE again before buying a new toilet.  They have fancy smancy taller toilets (so it's easier to sit down on) with bigger longer bowls (I guess so you don't miss?) which may or may not work in your 1/2 bath.  

FWIW:  the newer low water use toilets (like you ALREADY have in your house) don't always cope well with a lot of TP - especially the new thicker cushiony stuff. If you are using some sort of disposable wipes (or if you are tossing lotion-y facial tissue in the toilet)  the paper might not be making it past the 'S' shaped part of the toilet... and that's where the 'clog' is happening. 

You might want to look for a toilet with a powerful flush (that's still low - water usage).   My brother is quite proud of the toilet he installed... it's so "powerful" you can't clog it...    and again I didn't ask for specifics cause I didn't want to know   

  

Ok, my description must have been misleading because it is the main bath.  The other bathroom adjoins the master bedroom.

Your description, while cute, made the blockage to be something more than it is.  It's the same crap that clogs all toilets once in awhile.  It's the reason why plungers were invented.  The plunger, by the way, cleared the clog.  The real problem was that DH tried to deal with it in the middle of the night by himself. 

We won't be DIYing this at any point in the project.  DH is a 71-year-old man with an arthritic back.  And I don't want to really redo the entire bathroom.  I replaced the lighting fixture and vanity/vanity top about 5 years ago.  They are fine.  You can't enlarge it or change the footprint in anyway without doing a mega-bucks reno.  That's hardly cost-efficient in a house worth about $130,000 (at most). 

I just want a new toilet and new flooring.  I knew they have to pull the toilet to put in the flooring.  I just didn't know the order to do this in.

Thanks!

[KaraBoo]

It may also be a clog in the vent pipe ( going through the roof) rather than the sewage line. If the baths are adjoining, but the other toilet isn't backing up as well, I'd start with the roof vent.

[973beachbum]

If you plunging it makes the clog seem to go away and later comes back then it is probably a build up of things like TP in the line IMO.  A lot of homes have the pluming lines set up in more of a spaghetti fashion that is gravity fed than a straight run out to the septic tank in one nice long drop.  This means that everything has to be perfect for the system to keep running without a problem.  If the house was built in 1980 chances are it wasn't designed for things like low flow toilets.  A gravity system that doesn't have a lot of  drop just isn't going to be able to handle that lace of pressure feeding it. 

I second getting the system snaked out but by a real plumber.  If your plumbing is like most houses it might not actually be that toilet that is the problem.  We had an issue with what we thought was the toilet clogging up.  It turned out the problem was actually before the toilet hit the line and the clog/slow drain was causing the whole thing not to be able to vent like it should have been.  As a result the clog in the line made it have to vent out the toilet which didn't allow the toilet to flush properly ect.

Long story short unless you have been in the basement/crawlspace and know exactly what the pipes and vents look like and should look like I think you need a good plumber to figure out what exactly is causing the problem and to fix it properly.

Then I would fix the floor and maybe replace the toilet.

[swamp]

Feb 8, 2015 22:15:46 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

So you would get a plumber out first to snake the lines and replace the toilet.  Then get someone out to pull the toilet and replace the flooring?

you don't need a plumber to snake the line. It's icky, but easy.

[Deleted]

Feb 8, 2015 22:15:46 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

So you would get a plumber out first to snake the lines and replace the toilet.  Then get someone out to pull the toilet and replace the flooring?

do the flooring before replacing the toilet....

[Deleted]

Feb 9, 2015 8:48:56 GMT -5 swamp said:

Feb 8, 2015 22:15:46 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

So you would get a plumber out first to snake the lines and replace the toilet.  Then get someone out to pull the toilet and replace the flooring?

you don't need a plumber to snake the line. It's icky, but easy.

and even easier to call a plumber

[Bonny]

If this is a recurring problem then what you might have is a build up in your sanitary sewer. We recently paid a plumber to drop a camera and check out our pipes in the AZ house which was built in 1982. Over the past 30+ years there's been a gradual build up with grease/oil which acts like a giant soap bar. Snaking just pokes a hole in it and in six months to a year the "hole" closes up again.

[bean29]

So, Bonny what was their proposed solution?

[Tiny]

I just want a new toilet and new flooring. I knew they have to pull the toilet to put in the flooring. I just didn't know the order to do this in.

thank you for realizing I was being silly     

Are there any kitchen and bath remodel places in your area OR plumbers who advertize for kitchen/bath remodals?   I know you aren't doing a total remodal - but they may be willing to do your smaller job - since you'd probably be purchasing a toilet and the flooring from them as well as having them do the install.   

Some of the 'larger' established plumbers in my are do more than just 'plumbing' they'll fix the sub floor, and install your flooring, and sell you a new toilet which they will install.    They dont' really advertize that they do this but they do... you just need to call as ask.

I don't think you need to contact/call two different 'contractors'  - you just need to find a plumber that's running a bigger business than just doing routine handyman stuff.    

By bigger or larger plumber - I mean the ones that have an actual storefront and several employees versus someone working out of their home and they are the only employee (or maybe they have an answering service - ie their wife).    I have one of each plumber on my list - the guy who works out of his home is great for the small stuff - installing a water heater (which I've already purchased and hauled into my basement) , replacing the bathroom fixtures (which I've already purchased) - any kind of job that's less than 2 hours.   I'd call the bigger 'plumber' for dealing with something like replacing the toilet and flooring.  

[Bonny]

Feb 9, 2015 9:57:23 GMT -5 bean29 said:

So, Bonny what was their proposed solution?

Hydro jetted the lines.

I think for older homes the camera work is priceless. We kept having back up issues with a laundry sink with our N. San Diego County house. After multiple snaking tries we had a camera dropped into the line. Turns out a faultly pipe from the foundry had rusted to the point that it constricted the two inch laundry line to less than 1". When anything more than a small load was run the volume was too much and caused an overflow.

[kittensaver]

Feb 8, 2015 22:15:46 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

So you would get a plumber out first to snake the lines and replace the toilet.  Then get someone out to pull the toilet and replace the flooring?

Yes, this. Your first order of business is to get the overflow (and the unfortunate resultant house damage) permanently corrected. You will need to figure out if you merely had a one-time overflow (due to a pesky but fixable clog), or if there is some more serious problem (like damaged pipes) that make this an on-going concern. There is no point in putting down a new floor only to have it too get damaged!

Depending on your tolerance for construction mess, you might consider pulling up the vinyl floor to allow the subfloor to dry out - if you don't, you might end up with a mold and/or wood rot problem. On the plus side, however, once the old floor covering is gone you need to replace it, right?

Hopefully you'll be able to tolerate looking at and walking around on subflooring for a couple of weeks while you get the plumbing problem solved. Toss down a couple of throw rugs if it is too uncomfortable. Pulling out and replacing (or pulling out and re-installing) a toilet is not THAT big of a deal. Any good DIY book or video could teach you how. And unless there are complications you don't yet know about, the toilet installation/re-installation should cost you in the low hundreds, not thousands. The pipes? Depending on the problem, that could be a whole different story . . .

Good luck whatever you decide.

[motherto2]

Can I just say ewww.... my plunging issue usually has something to do with DS

[CarolinaKat]

Feb 8, 2015 22:54:16 GMT -5 Tiny said:

  what clogs a 3 inch pipe (or maybe a 4 inch one if there's more than one toilet using the main)  and that can get past the S shaped part of a toilet??  

You know what... I don't want to know...  

  

In the case of my parents basement toilet, Tree roots.

[Deleted]

We got the plumber out to auger the lines. He said a build-up was pretty normal in a house this old (35 years). I know that the pipes have never been snaked or drain cleaner used in the almost 11 years that I've lived here.   The no drain cleaner was on purpose. You don't mess much with the eco-system of a septic tank.

Anyway, he did agree that the thirty-five-year-old is probably past its prime.  It's $425 for the installation of a new standard toilet (toilet included) and $475 for the comfort height version.  I remember that as my aunt aged, she needed a higher toilet so we are getting one installed next week.  We will do the other bathroom sometime next fall.

We will have to wait on the flooring.  We can't do it all this month, and DH doesn't want to wait.  His arthritic back is killing him.  I know a contractor can pull the toilet and put it back when we get the flooring done.  No new stains showed up on the flooring, which is good.  I have extra ceiling tiles so as soon as the toilet is replaced, I will replace the ceiling tiles.  That's one DIY job I can do because none need to be cut.

Thanks for your help!

[tskeeter]

SS, you are correct that the failing grout in your kitchen floor is probably caused by the floor flexing.  There are several ways to fix that.  The first question is does the floor have bridging between the floor joists?  (I'm betting it doesn't.)  Bridging is solid blocks of wood installed between the floor joists, or smaller pieces of wood installed in an X pattern between the floor joists.  The primary purpose of bridging is to tranfer the load on the floor from a single joist to the adjacent joists.  In this way, three (or more) joists carry the load of a person walking across the floor instead of just one or two.  Installing bridging will reduce how much the floor flexes.  And, in general, the more bridging, the less flexing.  So, if the kitchen floor only has one run of bridging, adding bridging half way between the existing bridging and the end of the floor joist should reduce the flexing.  Splitting the gap into thirds should stiffen up the floor even more.

I'd certainly consider installing bridging to be a DIY job.  Some lumber, a saw, some nails or screws and you're good to go.

A second way to stiffen up your floor is to double up the floor joists.  Gluing and nailing (or screwing) a second joist to the side of each existing joist.  Structurally, this would turn a 2 X 10 into a 4 X 10.

There are other ways to reduce the flex in a floor, too.  But these are probably the easiest for a DIYer to do.   

[Deleted]

Thanks for the advice Tskeeter. Unfortunately, at age 71 with an arthritic back, DH isn't up to DIY. But you gave me some good advice for a paid handyman to consider.

[CarolinaKat]

Feb 12, 2015 16:34:57 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

We got the plumber out to auger the lines. He said a build-up was pretty normal in a house this old (35 years). I know that the pipes have never been snaked or drain cleaner used in the almost 11 years that I've lived here.   The no drain cleaner was on purpose. You don't mess much with the eco-system of a septic tank.

Anyway, he did agree that the thirty-five-year-old is probably past its prime.  It's $425 for the installation of a new standard toilet (toilet included) and $475 for the comfort height version.  I remember that as my aunt aged, she needed a higher toilet so we are getting one installed next week.  We will do the other bathroom sometime next fall.

We will have to wait on the flooring.  We can't do it all this month, and DH doesn't want to wait.  His arthritic back is killing him.  I know a contractor can pull the toilet and put it back when we get the flooring done.  No new stains showed up on the flooring, which is good.  I have extra ceiling tiles so as soon as the toilet is replaced, I will replace the ceiling tiles.  That's one DIY job I can do because none need to be cut.

Thanks for your help!

This is awesome if you are tall. I am 5'1" and I regret the taller toilet every time I sit on it.

tskeeter has some good points, especially about sistering the floor joists and adding bridging. I had an issue with a floor joist in my utility room, sistering it with a new joist fixed most of the issue.

[Deleted]

Feb 13, 2015 8:11:25 GMT -5 CarolinaKat said:

Feb 12, 2015 16:34:57 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

We got the plumber out to auger the lines. He said a build-up was pretty normal in a house this old (35 years). I know that the pipes have never been snaked or drain cleaner used in the almost 11 years that I've lived here.   The no drain cleaner was on purpose. You don't mess much with the eco-system of a septic tank.

Anyway, he did agree that the thirty-five-year-old is probably past its prime.  It's $425 for the installation of a new standard toilet (toilet included) and $475 for the comfort height version.  I remember that as my aunt aged, she needed a higher toilet so we are getting one installed next week.  We will do the other bathroom sometime next fall.

We will have to wait on the flooring.  We can't do it all this month, and DH doesn't want to wait.  His arthritic back is killing him.  I know a contractor can pull the toilet and put it back when we get the flooring done.  No new stains showed up on the flooring, which is good.  I have extra ceiling tiles so as soon as the toilet is replaced, I will replace the ceiling tiles.  That's one DIY job I can do because none need to be cut.

Thanks for your help!

This is awesome if you are tall. I am 5'1" and I regret the taller toilet every time I sit on it.

tskeeter has some good points, especially about sistering the floor joists and adding bridging. I had an issue with a floor joist in my utility room, sistering it with a new joist fixed most of the issue.

I am 5'2" so I'm sure I will have the same issue. But DH is 6'1" so it evens out. We will still have one that is standard height.

[t-dog]

Ok so the evil teenager in me immediately thought - "too bad you don't live around here so I could have you waste jerk plumbers time coming out to give you an estimate." Then sane adult me thought "Nah, that would be just a waste of your time and not nearly inconvenient enough for jerk plumber to get what he deserves!"

[Deleted]

The new toilet looks awesome. It's a Kohler, by the way.

However, in the usual spirit of Home Improvement, one fix leads to another. The tank on the wall is smaller so I've got to do some sanding and repainting. The bowl is somewhat wider, which means the old bathmat only fits vertically (going out from the bathtub) instead of horizontally (adjacent to the bathtub).

You get the idea. Spring Break is going to be all about the hall bathroom. But that's cool. There is something neat about a virginal toilet that has no crap under the rim, that has a seat that has never been sat on, etc. It is so pristine that I asked DH not to sit on it until tomorrow. Well, the guy did some caulking and it's been raining . . . LOL. Gotta get that caulk dry, right?