What barriers still face women?

[Green Eyed Lady]

Agreed, Miss Tequila, but I've said it as many ways as I know how. I believe this is what is referred to as an impasse!!!! Such is message board life, eh?

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 6, 2015 21:20:16 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Agreed, Miss Tequila, but I've said it as many ways as I know how. I believe this is what is referred to as an impasse!!!! Such is message board life, eh?

Good point...not much point in continuing the debate. I guess to be cinsidered a feminist you must be willing to take over someone's job so they can be home with their baby. Never mind that it isn't fair to those of us left behind. Like or not, people are left picking up the slack for those out offixe

[Lizard Queen]

Feb 6, 2015 20:58:22 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 6, 2015 20:53:09 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

My point has been that I bet someone could do at least some of it without a lot of training.  (I never claimed that they could do all of it.)  I bet a lot of spreadsheets are involved, populated with a lot of numbers.  I'm willing to bet that not much calculus or higher-level physics is involved, however.

Lol...yes, just toss some numbers in a spreadsheet and call it a day. I love how easy peasy it is in your world

Again, did I say that?  Nooo, I said that you could strip out the easier stuff for someone else to do.  Then, you look for other easier tasks that take up your time. Delegate those too.  Looked, I worked for a workaholic that tried to everything herself.  She could have offloaded at least some of her work to lighten her load.  I'm sure a lot more than she realized.  The new guy that replaced her promptly did just that.

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 6, 2015 21:23:59 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Feb 6, 2015 20:58:22 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Lol...yes, just toss some numbers in a spreadsheet and call it a day. I love how easy peasy it is in your world

Again, did I say that?  Nooo, I said that you could strip out the easier stuff for someone else to do.  Then, you look for other easier tasks that take up your time. Delegate those too.  Looked, I worked for a workaholic that tried to everything herself.  She could have offloaded at least some of her work to lighten her load.  I'm sure a lot more than she realized.  The new guy that replaced her promptly did just that.

I am far from a workaholic but the entire finance department is stretched beyond capacity. There is no one left to whom to delegate

[Lizard Queen]

Feb 6, 2015 21:18:50 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 6, 2015 21:14:26 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

Did I say that?  (reading....no). I said that s a lot to cover for.  The more people, the more it makes sense to have someone there to cover for people who are gone.

So every department in my organization should be overstaffed just in case someone goes out on disability? That won't fly in many organizations.

Umm, I thought I was talking to 2 different people in 2 very different circumstances.  I guess MT and GEL are the same person!

[Deleted]

Feb 6, 2015 21:24:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 6, 2015 21:20:16 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Agreed, Miss Tequila, but I've said it as many ways as I know how. I believe this is what is referred to as an impasse!!!! Such is message board life, eh?

Good point...not much point in continuing the debate. I guess to be cinsidered a feminist you must be willing to take over someone's job so they can be home with their baby. Never mind that it isn't fair to those of us left behind. Like or not, people are left picking up the slack for those out offixe

I wasn't saying that. I repeat, the company should have a plan in place. I don't know the exact solution for your workplace because I am not familiar with it. But there has to be one that does not involve you doing 2 full time jobs.

[Lizard Queen]

Now I'm really confused with who is talking to who!

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 6, 2015 21:26:31 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Feb 6, 2015 21:24:03 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Good point...not much point in continuing the debate. I guess to be cinsidered a feminist you must be willing to take over someone's job so they can be home with their baby. Never mind that it isn't fair to those of us left behind. Like or not, people are left picking up the slack for those out offixe

I wasn't saying that. I repeat, the company should have a plan in place. I don't know the exact solution for your workplace because I am not familiar with it. But there has to be one that does not involve you doing 2 full time jobs.

The issue is they aren't going to do anything. Yes, I can brig in a temp to do mindless work but that's about it. If people aren't there others have to pick up their slack

I did it once and I'm not doing it again.

[Green Eyed Lady]

LOL!! I'm drinking wine....which I do....like never. So don't ask me what's what!

[Deleted]

So what you people who resent maternity are saying is that you long for the good old days when women were fired for being pregnant. I was back in 1976.  Yep, even teachers can't be replaced when they work for a private school that pays a pittance compared to the going rate.

That makes you happy?  It does work both ways, you know. YOU also would be fired for the same reason.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Feb 6, 2015 21:30:56 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

So what you people who resent maternity are saying is that you long for the good old days when women were fired for being pregnant. I was back in 1976.  Yep, even teachers can't be replaced when they work for a private school that pays a pittance compared to the going rate.

That makes you happy?  It does work both ways, you know. YOU also would be fired for the same reason.

Yes...that's exactly what we are saying.

How did I know this was going to happen. 

Waiter!!!!!

[busymom]

It appears companies have been downsizing since the 90's. I can remember working in an office where if one person was on vacation, it didn't strain the remaining staff, other than having to cover the missing person's phone calls. Now, companies schedule so they just barely have enough people to do the work. So, if anyone calls in sick, everyone else is annoyed. Then, you've got situations like my DD's fast food job. If business is slow, they'll send someone home, even if they end up with a rush an hour later, & too few people to do the job in a timely manner.   And, the higher-ups don't give a darn, as long as the profit margin looks good.

Late in the 90's a major department store went out of business.  It wasn't because they didn't have merchandise, nor because they didn't have competitive pricing.  It was because they literally had one person covering the entire sales floor ( a 3-floor store had 3 people working), and customers didn't want to wait to make their purchases.  Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 6, 2015 21:30:56 GMT -5 @southernsusana said:

So what you people who resent maternity are saying is that you long for the good old days when women were fired for being pregnant. I was back in 1976.  Yep, even teachers can't be replaced when they work for a private school that pays a pittance compared to the going rate.

That makes you happy?  It does work both ways, you know. YOU also would be fired for the same reason.

I don't have the answer. But expecting me to work like I did for 4 months is not the answer. It wasn't fair to me.

[Deleted]

The issue is they aren't going to do anything.

Unless they have to. That's why I believe in talking about it as a company flaw and hopefully getting to the point that societal pressure will force change.

[Miss Tequila]

Feb 6, 2015 22:08:57 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

The issue is they aren't going to do anything.

Unless they have to. That's why I believe in talking about it as a company flaw and hopefully getting to the point that societal pressure will force change.

i

And until they change (which they aren't going to) it will be on me and my already overworked staff.

[muttleynfelix]

Feb 6, 2015 21:09:27 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Feb 6, 2015 20:57:35 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

I don't know how many people we're talking about here, but if you have 6 coworkers to cover for each getting 2 weeks of vacation a year, that's 12 weeks right there.  Maybe spread out, but equal to FMLA leave. Every single year.  Then you might have sick leave as well.

It's a bit bigger than that.  I honestly do not understand why people have such a hard time admitting that being on extended leave affects your co-workers in some places.  If your experiences prove differently, I'm glad for you.  It's just not the same everywhere. 

Before I went on maternity leave at my small company, I was so worried about how it would affect everyone else.  I made sure that we had a plan in place. I wasn't taking that much time off, but I tried to make sure it wasn't a huge inconvenience/negatively impact for my coworkers.  The second time, I had to worry about a few other things besides maternity leave, but still the same concept. If my boss and coworker who felt the brunt of me being out felt screwed, it was because the part time guy who was suppose to be full time while I was on leave ended up with a chronic migrane and didn't work my entire maternity leave.  I worked - I was in the office once a week, I was walking people through problems, but he never made it in. 

Then, my coworker had a heart attack, let me tell you maternity leave is relatively easy to plan for and not screw everyone over compared to that.  You can't plan for that.  You can't make sure work is done ahead of time because OMG I might have a heart attack. Even my unexpected trip to the hospital for a week was worse on everyone than maternity leave.  

I've covered for my boss while he was in Africa for 2 weeks and other 2 week vacations where he is completely unavailable.  I don't think him "covering" my maternity leave adds up to any more than I've covered for him.

I think my coworkers and boss feel more in a bind that I have given my notice than they ever did while I was on maternity leave.

After my experiences, if in the 6+ months that a company knows that an employee is going on maternity leave that they can't come up with a better plan than so and so work double time.  Then that is on the company.  This a leave with WARNING. It is much harder to handle a heart attack or a sudden hospitalization in my experience.  You know maternity leave is coming.  Don't throw your hands up in the air when the employee goes into labor and go WTF are we going to do.  It isn't that hard - even in a project based company.  We did it (twice) with 7 people.  Granted part of that was that I was available to answer questions, go into the office, spend a half day at work, but part of that was that we knew it was coming.  I was so pissed when I warned a client that I was going to be out and they didn't give me the information I needed to complete a project until after I was on leave.  That is on you.  Learn to plan. 

[HoneyBBQ]

Feb 6, 2015 19:09:23 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 6, 2015 15:37:34 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

I have to ask, would it be acceptable if an employer decided not to hire you Miss T because you are a woman? Women are having babies later and later nowadays, especially with advancements in technology.

Would it be acceptable for a potential employer to discriminate against you because there is always the off chance you may decide to have a baby? Unless you're going to bring in a note from your doctor saying you're thru menopause or had your tubes tied there is always the chance.

I'm just curious because you've said you discriminate against women of child bearing age because you know they'll screw you over. I want to know if it would be acceptable to have that same attitude applied to you.

Or are you somehow the exception to the rule?

I can't have children now...No risk for an employer to hire me

Where do I put that on my CV? Or is there a "Barren or sterile?: yes /no" option to circle on your applications?

[Phoenix84]

Every workplace is different. It's not always so easy to have someone else cover your work, or for employers to implement ways for coverage.

At my job, it can take a year or more to get someone qualified and up to speed on what's going on.  In many highly complicated jobs, you can't just bring in any average Joe or Jane off the street and expect them to be up to speed in a minimal amount of time.

In general, businesses want to only have the staff necessary to accomplish the work, not keep extra around in case someone quits suddenly or goes on extended leave.

[quince]

Yes, it is an expense and a challenge to keep enough staff cross trained to cover extended leave.

Yes, this is something companies above a certain size need to do, because FMLA. Not just for fertile women anymore! Anyone can use it!

It is only for 12 work weeks in a 12 month period, so 3 months of protected leave. For everyone.

Stay a small company or have really tiny offices spread over a wide geographical area if you don't want to deal with this.

And the fact that women are singled out for the possibility of using this protection = a challenge that women have to deal with.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 6, 2015 19:22:45 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Feb 6, 2015 19:19:37 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Miss Tequila it really is not impossible to find a system to cover for mat leaves. No one is irreplaceable.

Everyone is replaceable. But this is a short replacement. Not many higher level employees want to work for just 3 or 4 months

You can do what we do in Quebec. Parental leaves are for a year. They're paid 70% of their salary through the Parental Leave Plan, kind of like Unemployment Insurance.

In the meantime, you hire a temp for one year. I always see ads for all sorts of employment to replace someone on mat leave for a year. Some people only do leaves exclusively.

Back at the ranch, the exhausted parent can bond, breastfeed, and adjust to life with no sleep.

This builds for stable and healthy families. Stable and healthy families build strong communities and everyone wins.

[violagirl]

I think the problem in the US is not mat leave, it is the length of mat leave. I was hired as a cost accountant to cover a mat leave position. Except here mat leave is for a year. It was a good way to gain experience. 

I guess you'd have to discount all working people of childbearing age as potential hires since leave could be taken by the father or the mother. Or can be split between the two. 

As a woman of childbearing years who chose NOT to have kids, I guess you could look at my resume and assume it is a possibility and not hire me, but then again, I probably wouldn't want to be hired by a company who could not manage their staffing anyway. 

One drawback for women though who take year long mat leave, is they are then behind in their career compared to everyone else. For example, somoene at work was promoted a year before I was, but she went on mat leave. A year later I am promoted, and she comes back. She and I are at the same level salarywise. If she goes out again, then I have a year more of experience and bonuses and will likely be promoted faster. 

But that is the decision we all make when we decide to have kids or not. 

[Deleted]

but Miss T, why then was it ok for you to go out on leave when you had kids and someone had to cover for you? 

[Deleted]

Feb 7, 2015 1:45:28 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Every workplace is different. It's not always so easy to have someone else cover your work, or for employers to implement ways for coverage.

At my job, it can take a year or more to get someone qualified and up to speed on what's going on.  In many highly complicated jobs, you can't just bring in any average Joe or Jane off the street and expect them to be up to speed in a minimal amount of time.

In general, businesses want to only have the staff necessary to accomplish the work, not keep extra around in case someone quits suddenly or goes on extended leave.

so what do they do when you take a 2-week vacation?

[Deleted]

Feb 7, 2015 8:52:53 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Feb 7, 2015 8:31:29 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

so what do they do when you take a 2-week vacation?

Nobody takes 2 week vacations. Or you work like hell for two weeks prior to the vacation and spend a month catching up when you get back. 

in your company?

[Deleted]

Feb 7, 2015 9:28:35 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Feb 7, 2015 9:03:12 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

in your company?

Yes, and I would hazard a guess this culture is true in a lot of American companies. 1 week is pretty standard, but 2 is generally rare. 

Im im taking a 1 week and 2 day vacation starting this coming week. I will be putting in 10-11 hour days starting Monday to get everything prepped to hand off, and when I return I expect it will be the same to get caught up. I run a team that I have to make sure they know what needs to be done while I'm gone, performance appraisals are due the week I'm gone, and were made available to work on COB yesterday. I'm prepping for UAT for two different projects which will need to be handed off to someone else. I'm running 2 projects that I will need to prepare and communicate activities that need to be completed while I'm gone. And this doesn't include my 'running the daily business activities' that I need to put a continuation of open issues to be worked while I'm gone. 

I took 2 weeks off over the christmas holiday.....I took 2 weeks off over the summer.....I have a coworker who's currently off for 2 weeks and took a month off last year for an australian vacation/cruise....I have another coworker who took off a month to visit relatives in India...another one who took 2 weeks for a mission trip this year and one the previous year.   nobody blinks an eye at 2 week or longer vacations.  I can't imagine working somewhere that frowns upon a vacation longer than a week.

[Phoenix84]

Feb 7, 2015 8:31:29 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

Feb 7, 2015 1:45:28 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Every workplace is different. It's not always so easy to have someone else cover your work, or for employers to implement ways for coverage.

At my job, it can take a year or more to get someone qualified and up to speed on what's going on.  In many highly complicated jobs, you can't just bring in any average Joe or Jane off the street and expect them to be up to speed in a minimal amount of time.

In general, businesses want to only have the staff necessary to accomplish the work, not keep extra around in case someone quits suddenly or goes on extended leave.

so what do they do when you take a 2-week vacation?

The work just keeps piling up and you have to do it when you get back.

[Deleted]

I understand some of the frustration.  But I'm startled that posters like Miss T want to take out the frustration on women workers.  It is wrong to discriminate against someone because they are female and might get pregnant.  I hope at least you discriminate "fairly" and also won't hire anyone who doesn't achieve a perfect score on a health screening test.  I'd think being overweight, having high blood pressure or high cholesterol, and maybe a family history of certain diseases would potentially cause you to potentially have to cover in their absence.  If you discriminate, don't just discriminate on the basis of having a uterus.

But I admire Miss T's honestly, if not her stance.  She said aloud what a lot of hiring managers think, anyway.  And it goes back to the barrier I identified--children.  Guys don't have a uterus. 

I read an interesting story yesterday, but I can't remember where.  The location wasn't the U.S.  A woman had given birth to a baby with Down syndrome and decided, without consulting her husband, to give the baby up.  She divorced him two weeks later, and he is returning to his country with the baby where he has family to support him.

This wouldn't be news if it was the other way around.  I know this because I know several women whose husbands could not handle a child with disabilities.  They left the mother to handle it alone.  They weren't necessarily "bad" fathers in terms of sending child support checks, but some didn't even want to see the child for visits with the other children.  They couldn't "handle" it.

But, as I said, that would never make the newspaper.

[zibazinski]

Feb 6, 2015 21:16:53 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Feb 6, 2015 11:42:27 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Or it's aimed at me, who has openly said we couldn't afford maternity coverage and leave when we first started our business. 

I thought small businesses with few employees were exempted from FMLA requirements and the like?

That was then, this is now. Even coverage that was non maternity was $150 a month for a single young healthy male. In 1989. Our first hired employee was just that. Coupled with his salary, which at that time was 30k. There was no one that could have covered an employee needing leave. Even then you couldn't Fire someone for being sick but we would have hired another person to take his place since we wouldn't be paying his salary. Hopefully, we would have grown enough by then to bring him back on if he'd left for illness but no guarantee we would have grown enough. Of course, he'd have had zero issue getting another job anyway. 

[Deleted]

At one point, my employer was hiring women at a faster rate than men. Which was odd, because it's a physical job. The rumor was that a lot of the male applicants were failing the drug test.

This is another of those threads that remind me of some of the good things about my job since I'm not rolling in the big bucks in a cushy office. My job requires more common sense and physical ability than intricate knowledge and specialized skills. None of it is rocket science, so you can stick me in an area I'm not at all familiar with and I can catch on fairly quickly. Because of the nature of our job (lots of injuries), in addition to the other things that happen in people's lives, we have people out all the time, sometimes for extended lengths of time. We still keep rolling along. Vacation season is like manna from heaven for the people that want all the overtime they can get. It doesn't really affect those of us that don't like OT, unless we're trying to take a day off work when a lot of people have scheduled vacations.

I don't mind having to give a little more because one of my coworkers isn't feeling well, is out sick, taking care of a loved one,  just had a baby, or having some sort of personal crisis. To me, it's give and take. They've had to keep things moving when I've been out, I have to do the same when they're out. I do mind though, when management knows ahead of time that something is coming and they fail to plan and/or prepare for it.

When women get pregnant, it's not just the maternity leave that's a "problem". Some parts of our jobs, most of us are uncomfortable seeing a pregnant woman doing. They still work, but just as coworkers, we tend to take over the more demanding tasks to help protect her and the baby from potential harm. So that's months of her being there every day but not necessarily performing at 100%. As long as everything is running smoothly, management doesn't care who's doing what. 

[muttleynfelix]

Feb 7, 2015 10:07:16 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Feb 7, 2015 8:31:29 GMT -5 @singlemominmd said:

so what do they do when you take a 2-week vacation?

The work just keeps piling up and you have to do it when you get back.

Gosh. That is pretty similar to what happened during my 6 week maternity leave.

Amazing enough, the world did not end. Now me quitting, that is the end of the world. My coworker having a heart attack, we couldn't let work pile up because we had no idea when he would be back and what he could handle when he came back. By comparison, having maternity leave was a walk in the park.