Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 5, 2015 11:45:13 GMT -5
A sort of spinoff thread from the "feminist" thread.
Whenever issues of gender (or even race) equality come up, the discussion is usually very broad and lacking in specifics.
For example, posters in the feminist thread used phrases like "women still face stumbling blocks," or "women face challenges and obstacles," and "work still needs to be done."
But let's get specific.
1. What barriers/stumbling blocks/limitations/inequalities specifically do women face today (not historically) that need to be overcome. In short, what specifically needs to change.
2. How do you propose the changes above actually occur. Is it something that needs to be legislated? Do perceptions and core beliefs need to change? If so, how do you propose to "win hearts and minds" over to a specific way of thinking?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 11:49:48 GMT -5
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 5, 2015 11:54:05 GMT -5
A couple things come to mind. - Harassment still exists in the workplace. Not like it once did, I'm sure. But it is definitely still present. - Some professions are so male dominated that it can be very uncomfortable. I have been in meetings with 20+ people where I am the only woman in the room. It no longer phases me, but when I was fresh out of school it was very hard for me to feel like I belonged in a situation like that.
I don't know how to fix. Time will take care of some of it as more women enter various professions.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Feb 5, 2015 11:58:03 GMT -5
From Snopes: "So while the original court may have referenced the issue of male lactation, headlines asserting the case turned on the issue that "breastfeeding is not sexist since men can lactate" are inaccurate, and they create a grossly misleading impression based upon one very minor element of a single aspect of the case. The courts ultimately deemed that Ames did not meet the burden of proof to proceed with a claim of sex or pregnancy-based discrimination, and the ruling did not hinge on whether men can lactate: both the 2012 opinion issued by an Iowa district court and the 2014 appellate decision to uphold the earlier ruling found Ames did not allow time for her employer to address the requested accommodations before she resigned. Furthermore, the original decision observed that "Ames [admitted] that the lactation policy was readily available to her on the company intranet and that she could have, but did not, ask any questions regarding the policy" before seeking to access accommodations under it.
Read more at www.snopes.com/info/news/menlactate.asp#oKwuI2Kq2mPAgR6y.99"
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 5, 2015 12:00:30 GMT -5
I'm not sure which poster it was, I think it might have been gira, that posted a study about NIH funding.
There has been a real issue with women and minorities getting NIH approved funding. There was a study done showing a wide discrepancy so they went to assigning numbers to the grants instead of putting down the candidates names. All of a sudden funding leveled out.
The only difference was now there were no names to indicate the potential gender/ethnicity of the applicant.
We can argue it is that women don't "lean in" or "sell themselves" enough but if that is the case then why did things change when names were removed? If it was simply women didn't try hard enough then funding levels shouldn't have change the moment the grant approvers couldn't identify ethnicity/gender.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 5, 2015 12:02:53 GMT -5
A couple things come to mind. - Harassment still exists in the workplace. Not like it once did, I'm sure. But it is definitely still present. - Some professions are so male dominated that it can be very uncomfortable. I have been in meetings with 20+ people where I am the only woman in the room. It no longer phases me, but when I was fresh out of school it was very hard for me to feel like I belonged in a situation like that.
I don't know how to fix. Time will take care of some of it as more women enter various professions. I think part of the issue of "equality" is that women mention stumbling blocks for women, which are really stumbling blocks for people. Harassment still exists in the workplace regardless of gender. Some professions are so female dominated that it can be uncomfortable for men. It's all well and good to recognize that these are things which should be changed, I'm just not sure this is a "woman issue" so much as it is a "people issue". I think it diminishes credibility when one group (women in this case, but it applies to lots of groups) tries to commandeer a societal issue affecting many as "their issue". A much more specific stumbling block would likely be that on average women earn X% of what men of comparable quality earn in a comparable job. I've said it in other threads, but I definitely believe a massive stumbling block is simply the idea that women want to be equal only when it suits them. "I want to be equal, but a man should pay for the first date. I want to be equal, but a man should hold a door for me because I'm a woman. I want to be equal but women shouldn't have to register for the draft." People justify it in all kinds of ways, but if you simultaneously argue that you want to be equal in all ways which benefit you, but unequal when the inequality also benefits you, you don't look like you're looking for equality, you look like you're trying to get special treatment (and IMO less likely to be an effective agent of meaningful change).
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Feb 5, 2015 12:31:49 GMT -5
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Feb 5, 2015 12:33:26 GMT -5
Unconscious bias is real. Numerous studies have shown that work is deemed less impressive (or a candidate's skills less impressive) if the name associated with it is clearly a woman's.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 12:36:47 GMT -5
From Snopes: "So while the original court may have referenced the issue of male lactation, headlines asserting the case turned on the issue that "breastfeeding is not sexist since men can lactate" are inaccurate, and they create a grossly misleading impression based upon one very minor element of a single aspect of the case. The courts ultimately deemed that Ames did not meet the burden of proof to proceed with a claim of sex or pregnancy-based discrimination, and the ruling did not hinge on whether men can lactate: both the 2012 opinion issued by an Iowa district court and the 2014 appellate decision to uphold the earlier ruling found Ames did not allow time for her employer to address the requested accommodations before she resigned. Furthermore, the original decision observed that "Ames [admitted] that the lactation policy was readily available to her on the company intranet and that she could have, but did not, ask any questions regarding the policy" before seeking to access accommodations under it.
Read more at www.snopes.com/info/news/menlactate.asp#oKwuI2Kq2mPAgR6y.99" I should have known there was more. This friend has got to be the most liberal person I have ever met.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 12:37:21 GMT -5
It can go both ways though. Back in the stone age, reading resumes was more enjoyable when women wrote them. I'm Used to the way women write and think, it's easier for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 12:41:48 GMT -5
A couple things come to mind. - Harassment still exists in the workplace. Not like it once did, I'm sure. But it is definitely still present. - Some professions are so male dominated that it can be very uncomfortable. I have been in meetings with 20+ people where I am the only woman in the room. It no longer phases me, but when I was fresh out of school it was very hard for me to feel like I belonged in a situation like that.
I don't know how to fix. Time will take care of some of it as more women enter various professions. I think part of the issue of "equality" is that women mention stumbling blocks for women, which are really stumbling blocks for people. Harassment still exists in the workplace regardless of gender. Some professions are so female dominated that it can be uncomfortable for men. It's all well and good to recognize that these are things which should be changed, I'm just not sure this is a "woman issue" so much as it is a "people issue". I think it diminishes credibility when one group (women in this case, but it applies to lots of groups) tries to commandeer a societal issue affecting many as "their issue". A much more specific stumbling block would likely be that on average women earn X% of what men of comparable quality earn in a comparable job. I've said it in other threads, but I definitely believe a massive stumbling block is simply the idea that women want to be equal only when it suits them. "I want to be equal, but a man should pay for the first date. I want to be equal, but a man should hold a door for me because I'm a woman. I want to be equal but women shouldn't have to register for the draft." People justify it in all kinds of ways, but if you simultaneously argue that you want to be equal in all ways which benefit you, but unequal when the inequality also benefits you, you don't look like you're looking for equality, you look like you're trying to get special treatment (and IMO less likely to be an effective agent of meaningful change). "Some" women aren't the only ones sending mixed signals. Plenty of "men" only want equality when it suits them. Open my own door, snob, stuck up, or feminazi. Try to pay for a date, emasculating. Actually pay for a date, might as well have cut of his penis. Dare to hit on him first, WHORE! Agree that women should register for the draft, "why don't women act like ladies anymore?"
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 12:47:42 GMT -5
I think a lot of the bias stops being institutional and starts being social, which is good, one one hand, and terrible on the other, because how people feel about things is not possible to legislate, and I think most legal attempts at correction will do more harm than good.
People who view assertive women as bitchy, and assertive men as strong.
The expectation that to be groomed, make-up is a must (not so for men, although gender specific grooming requirements are a PITA to both genders, I think. Long hair on boys, I'm looking at you.)
I note that female politicians have their hair and wardrobe more commented upon than men. Also with female executives in the public spectrum, focus on how they balance work and family is referred to a lot more than it would ever be with male executives. Mostly not good for women, but I'm sure there's a related issue with how men with families are not given "leeway" to take care of those families that a woman might be...they might want that, even if the "leeway" comes with less opportunities for advancement.
Feeling unsafe when walking alone is an issue to some.
While pay isn't the 70% number that people like to throw around, it is still lower than that of men, even when corrected for time out of the workforce, non-equivalent employment.
I personally have not experienced a lot of problems...I'm not ambitious enough to stick out and draw attention/flak. Any discomfort I've had has come from being Asian rather than being a woman.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 12:47:55 GMT -5
If a man sleeps with a bunch of women, he's patted on the back.
If a woman sleeps with a bunch of men, she's looked at as a whore or someone with self-esteem issues.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 5, 2015 12:54:51 GMT -5
I think part of the issue of "equality" is that women mention stumbling blocks for women, which are really stumbling blocks for people. Harassment still exists in the workplace regardless of gender. Some professions are so female dominated that it can be uncomfortable for men. It's all well and good to recognize that these are things which should be changed, I'm just not sure this is a "woman issue" so much as it is a "people issue". I think it diminishes credibility when one group (women in this case, but it applies to lots of groups) tries to commandeer a societal issue affecting many as "their issue". A much more specific stumbling block would likely be that on average women earn X% of what men of comparable quality earn in a comparable job. I've said it in other threads, but I definitely believe a massive stumbling block is simply the idea that women want to be equal only when it suits them. "I want to be equal, but a man should pay for the first date. I want to be equal, but a man should hold a door for me because I'm a woman. I want to be equal but women shouldn't have to register for the draft." People justify it in all kinds of ways, but if you simultaneously argue that you want to be equal in all ways which benefit you, but unequal when the inequality also benefits you, you don't look like you're looking for equality, you look like you're trying to get special treatment (and IMO less likely to be an effective agent of meaningful change). "Some" women aren't the only ones sending mixed signals. Plenty of "men" only want equality when it suits them. Open my own door, snob, stuck up, or feminazi. Try to pay for a date, emasculating. Actually pay for a date, might as well have cut of his penis. Dare to hit on him first, WHORE! Agree that women should register for the draft, "why don't women act like ladies anymore?" I would say in my experience that there are certainly men who think/act this way, but that their actions/thoughts are much more consistent than the women who want equality when it suits them. I would say many men who think this way aren't trying to also push equality. They're traditionalists who enjoy the traditional gender roles. It might be archaic, but it's consistent. I can handle consistent arguments which I think are incorrect much easier than someone with conflicting arguments.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Feb 5, 2015 12:56:14 GMT -5
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Feb 5, 2015 12:57:44 GMT -5
I am business trip right now. 90% of travelers are men. I think men are more likely to take jobs requiring travel. It is not discriminating. But being willing to travel gives you more opportunities.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Feb 5, 2015 13:02:22 GMT -5
In my job I just started, my boss (female btw) had one engineer and just hired two (I am one) all experienced and at the same level. She has two offices.
I get the medium one, the two others, both male, get to share the other larger one. So did I get favorable treatment because of my gender?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 13:02:39 GMT -5
no, this has been studied before - I believe that the findings were such that better looking people in general were perceived to be more capable.
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chen35
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Post by chen35 on Feb 5, 2015 13:16:00 GMT -5
Maybe for looks in general, but I still think women are judged more harshly for how they dress, how they do their hair/makeup, etc. Did you read the story? A woman could never get away with wearing the same thing on television every day for a year.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Feb 5, 2015 13:26:01 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of issues. Some of which are created by women themselves and some of which are created by the system.
I don't like the fact that women are often considered to be a bitch when they are assertive. I don't like the fact that self-confidence and competence seems to be confused with arrogance. Or that women are often passed over for career related opportunities in favor of men (I'm talking special projects, and extra time with the boss, rather than promotions). I don't like that harassment is still so common.
But, I also think that some barriers are self-created. I think that there was one study that argued that one reason men may move up more quickly is because they apply for jobs that they can believe they can do, even if they don't have experience. Versus women are more prone to only apply for jobs that they have experience doing. I also think women need to more regularly negotiate salaries, as right now many women don't even try and negotiate and so women don't earn as much as they could.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 5, 2015 13:40:53 GMT -5
Maybe for looks in general, but I still think women are judged more harshly for how they dress, how they do their hair/makeup, etc. Did you read the story? A woman could never get away with wearing the same thing on television every day for a year. I can't remember the last news item or article about a man doing something important that discussed WHAT HE WORE or HIS HAIR as part of the article. OK, there's Donald Trump - but his hair is practically a trademark... For example: what Michelle Obama wears or a change in hair style makes front page news... I can tell you what designers she wears -- I have no idea who makes the suits the President wears. Keep your eyes open and you'll see this happens over and over and over - no matter WHO THE WOMAN is.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Feb 5, 2015 13:42:57 GMT -5
If a man sleeps with a bunch of women, he's patted on the back. If a woman sleeps with a bunch of men, she's looked at as a whore or someone with self-esteem issues. Sounds like a personal problem to me. But IRL, this is because a man has to convince a bunch of women to sleep with him. This is no easy task for most men. All most women have to do is spread their legs and hold up a sign that says "get it here" and they'll have a line leading out the door and down the block. There's no challenge involved. The real challenge to women is being selective by not sleeping with every d-bag who comes along.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 5, 2015 13:43:44 GMT -5
Also, how come if I get pregnant it's MY FAULT and I should have been more careful? And, even though it's my fault which implies that I am solely RESPONSIBLE... I potentially have little or no AUTHORITY to take whatever actions I think is best for me. Basically, I have all the responsibility but no authority. How is that right?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 13:51:27 GMT -5
I think that is changing, the guy that screws everyone in sight being applauded. Good luck getting anyone but a skank to sleep with you. Discriminating women don't want your "cooties!"
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 5, 2015 13:56:31 GMT -5
Unfortunately, sexual harassment is alive & well still. And, it seems to have gotten worse again since the last recession. (Don't ask DD & I how we know...)
Anyone else here notice that when a family member has health problems, the women in the family are EXPECTED to put their careers on hold to care for that family member? Seriously, how often is the expected of a man? I left a previous employer because I couldn't occasionally get the time off (leaving early, say, once a month) to take care of my Mom. While at the same time, one of my male coworkers got a second job, & "had" to leave work early at least once or twice a week to get to his other job on time (with no complaints from management about him).
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 14:15:54 GMT -5
If a man sleeps with a bunch of women, he's patted on the back. If a woman sleeps with a bunch of men, she's looked at as a whore or someone with self-esteem issues. Sounds like a personal problem to me. But IRL, this is because a man has to convince a bunch of women to sleep with him. This is no easy task for most men. All most women have to do is spread their legs and hold up a sign that says "get it here" and they'll have a line leading out the door and down the block. There's no challenge involved. The real challenge to women is being selective by not sleeping with every d-bag who comes along. that's not necessarily true.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Feb 5, 2015 14:22:05 GMT -5
Sounds like a personal problem to me. But IRL, this is because a man has to convince a bunch of women to sleep with him. This is no easy task for most men. All most women have to do is spread their legs and hold up a sign that says "get it here" and they'll have a line leading out the door and down the block. There's no challenge involved. The real challenge to women is being selective by not sleeping with every d-bag who comes along. that's not necessarily true. It's true for the most part. Also note I didn't say it would be a line of quality guys who you'd want to sleep with. There are a lot of men out there who would pretty much sleep with any woman who lets them. Anyways, try it. Let me know how it works for you.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 14:25:22 GMT -5
I think the idea that men will have sex with anything that offers is unkind to men. A man has to convince a bunch of women that he WANTS TO SLEEP WITH to sleep with him. A women would have to convince a bunch of men that SHE WANTS TO SLEEP WITH to sleep with her.
The amount of throwing myself at my husband I did early on...yikes. No challenge? Suuure.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Feb 5, 2015 14:40:49 GMT -5
Most of my stumbling blocks seem to be other women.
I work a physically demanding job and have done so for over a decade. Now this little chit who is 10 years older than me and ten pounds heavier than me is telling me that I shouldn't have to work water, lift sugar, or stack pallets. I ignore her but she's making some converts among the other women that I work with. If I were her boss, I wouldn't be hiring any more women while she is here.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 5, 2015 14:48:26 GMT -5
removed by poster.
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