Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:02:45 GMT -5
There is still a pay equity discrepancy. Rape still ends up putting the victim on trial. There are still a disproportionate number of men in power positions compared to women. It is still considered a huge insult to describe a man in feminine terms. Those same terms are used to invalidate women in professional situations.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2015 15:08:07 GMT -5
Unfortunately, sexual harassment is alive & well still. And, it seems to have gotten worse again since the last recession. (Don't ask DD & I how we know...)
Anyone else here notice that when a family member has health problems, the women in the family are EXPECTED to put their careers on hold to care for that family member? Seriously, how often is the expected of a man? I left a previous employer because I couldn't occasionally get the time off (leaving early, say, once a month) to take care of my Mom. While at the same time, one of my male coworkers got a second job, & "had" to leave work early at least once or twice a week to get to his other job on time (with no complaints from management about him).
^^This^^ I also hear men saying that if they have a choice of two candidates, they'll always hire the man. Why? Because the woman will get pregnant and want time off. The woman's children will get sick and they'll want time off. The woman's parents will get sick and they'll want time off. These are the same people who howl about immigration. They don't want the US to take in any more people from third world hellholes. However, they also make it very difficult for women who want to replenish the American population. "No job for you!" What they REALLY want is a return to the 50s, when women stayed in the kitchen and knew their place.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Feb 5, 2015 15:08:18 GMT -5
Most of my stumbling blocks seem to be other women. I work a physically demanding job and have done so for over a decade. Now this little chit who is 10 years older than me and ten pounds heavier than me is telling me that I shouldn't have to work water, lift sugar, or stack pallets. I ignore her but she's making some converts among the other women that I work with. If I were her boss, I wouldn't be hiring any more women while she is here. This was my experience when I worked in manufacturing. We were in a small department with both men and women. We had some duties that were very physical (carting and lifting drums of liquid chemicals, etc). When I started, I was training with one of the guys and was doing that work. One of the leads (a female) came by and told me to stop because "we are women so we don't do that". She was my size (although about 20 years older...I was 20) and had always used her size as an excuse for why she "wasn't big enough" to handle the work. When someone who was her size was able to do it, she was threatened and had to get me to stop, lest her cover be blown. The stupid part was we were losing several employees (dept was only 10 people) and the ones who were leaving were men but women were taking their place. We were getting to a point where we would have 2 men to "do the work" for a 24-7 operation because the 8 women "couldn't".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 15:25:10 GMT -5
In my personal limited view:
A. I am married to a woman who has less education that makes more in the same level of work
B. Most of my bosses have been female.
C. Most of my coworkers have been female.
D. I've never seen any discrimination at my place of work, women seem to move up at the same rate as men.
I'm totally cool with all that, I know gender discrimination exists but it's not everywhere.
And yes, Bob Ross is right, waaaay easier for a lady to take a guy home than vice versa.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 15:43:33 GMT -5
I HAD A CLASS WITH PROF. BAKER!!!
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 5, 2015 16:00:58 GMT -5
A sort of spinoff thread from the "feminist" thread. Whenever issues of gender (or even race) equality come up, the discussion is usually very broad and lacking in specifics. For example, posters in the feminist thread used phrases like "women still face stumbling blocks," or "women face challenges and obstacles," and "work still needs to be done." But let's get specific. 1. What barriers/stumbling blocks/limitations/inequalities specifically do women face today (not historically) that need to be overcome. In short, what specifically needs to change. 2. How do you propose the changes above actually occur. Is it something that needs to be legislated? Do perceptions and core beliefs need to change? If so, how do you propose to "win hearts and minds" over to a specific way of thinking? Read this article if you seriously have no clue: www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/02/03/ross_baker_in_usa_today_hillary_clinton_is_scaring_off_all_the_good_male.htmlI think that article makes a good point. No guy wants to be seen as being someone trying to stand in the way of a female president. Nobody wants to be labeled as a "woman hater". It's a short term issue though. Once we have some women in power like that, I think that goes away. It's diminishing over time. You don't want to oppose the first woman president from happening, but probably dont' care about opposing the 2nd one...you're not standing against what others view as "history". It's like if anyone says Jackie Robinson wasn't as great a player as people said "oh you're such a racist"...nobody cares if you make the same argument about any black player today. Sometimes this stuff just has to happen, even if it's unfair at the time to some.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 16:06:45 GMT -5
I think that article makes a good point. No guy wants to be seen as being someone trying to stand in the way of a female president. Nobody wants to be labeled as a "woman hater". It's a short term issue though. Once we have some women in power like that, I think that goes away. It's diminishing over time. You don't want to oppose the first woman president from happening, but probably dont' care about opposing the 2nd one...you're not standing against what others view as "history". It's like if anyone says Jackie Robinson wasn't as great a player as people said "oh you're such a racist"...nobody cares if you make the same argument about any black player today. Sometimes this stuff just has to happen, even if it's unfair at the time to some. no one seemed to care about standing in the way of us electing the first black president, so I'm not getting behind that angle. Is being the first woman president more historic than being the first minority president?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 5, 2015 16:12:21 GMT -5
Funny enough, my EX is the one who had to deal with anything regarding flexibility because he could come and go as needed. I had to physically be available from a minimum of 9-3 to teach my students and needed to be there 45 minutes after and 75 minutes before. Now I could leave early after last class if necessary by just signing out because my duty was in the am. So if something had to be done i had a two hour window before 5 pm hit.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 5, 2015 16:22:51 GMT -5
I HAD A CLASS WITH PROF. BAKER!!! So, did he discuss male-female issues in his poly sci classes?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 5, 2015 16:27:12 GMT -5
I HAD A CLASS WITH PROF. BAKER!!! So, did he discuss male-female issues in his poly sci classes? I believe I just had him for American Government.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 16:31:05 GMT -5
From Snopes: "So while the original court may have referenced the issue of male lactation, headlines asserting the case turned on the issue that "breastfeeding is not sexist since men can lactate" are inaccurate, and they create a grossly misleading impression based upon one very minor element of a single aspect of the case. The courts ultimately deemed that Ames did not meet the burden of proof to proceed with a claim of sex or pregnancy-based discrimination, and the ruling did not hinge on whether men can lactate: both the 2012 opinion issued by an Iowa district court and the 2014 appellate decision to uphold the earlier ruling found Ames did not allow time for her employer to address the requested accommodations before she resigned. Furthermore, the original decision observed that "Ames [admitted] that the lactation policy was readily available to her on the company intranet and that she could have, but did not, ask any questions regarding the policy" before seeking to access accommodations under it.
Read more at www.snopes.com/info/news/menlactate.asp#oKwuI2Kq2mPAgR6y.99" I should have known there was more. This friend has got to be the most liberal person I have ever met. It was being reported on Facebook by my most conservative friends..,
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Feb 5, 2015 16:36:33 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of issues. Some of which are created by women themselves and some of which are created by the system. I don't like the fact that women are often considered to be a bitch when they are assertive. I don't like the fact that self-confidence and competence seems to be confused with arrogance. Or that women are often passed over for career related opportunities in favor of men (I'm talking special projects, and extra time with the boss, rather than promotions). I don't like that harassment is still so common. But, I also think that some barriers are self-created. I think that there was one study that argued that one reason men may move up more quickly is because they apply for jobs that they can believe they can do, even if they don't have experience. Versus women are more prone to only apply for jobs that they have experience doing. I also think women need to more regularly negotiate salaries, as right now many women don't even try and negotiate and so women don't earn as much as they could. And you don't think that this is attributable to being raised in the system? In regards to salary negotiations - research supports that when women do negotiate - if reflects negatively on them, and they get less money than a negotiating man, and that they start the position with a negative impression. And then - the job offer may be rescinded: jezebel.com/female-professor-loses-job-offer-when-she-tries-to-nego-1543018097I do think some of that has to do with being raised in the current system, but I also think if we have the power to change something we should at least try. One of the reasons that I wish all women would try and negotiate, because if everyone did it perhaps the negative consequences of negotiating would be reduced or eliminated. As mentioned I think many of the barriers women face are caused by the system, but there are others that are caused by women themselves. ETA: I just read the link you provided, and personally I don't think that that offer was withdrawn because she was a woman. I think she ended up having the job rescinded because there were probably 250+ other very well qualified applicants for the position, most if not all who would have accepted any salary provided to them. Unfortunately, academia (especially for the liberal arts) is a seller market.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 5, 2015 17:10:38 GMT -5
And you don't think that this is attributable to being raised in the system? In regards to salary negotiations - research supports that when women do negotiate - if reflects negatively on them, and they get less money than a negotiating man, and that they start the position with a negative impression. And then - the job offer may be rescinded: jezebel.com/female-professor-loses-job-offer-when-she-tries-to-nego-1543018097I do think some of that has to do with being raised in the current system, but I also think if we have the power to change something we should at least try. One of the reasons that I wish all women would try and negotiate, because if everyone did it perhaps the negative consequences of negotiating would be reduced or eliminated. As mentioned I think many of the barriers women face are caused by the system, but there are others that are caused by women themselves. ETA: I just read the link you provided, and personally I don't think that that offer was withdrawn because she was a woman. I think she ended up having the job rescinded because there were probably 250+ other very well qualified applicants for the position, most if not all who would have accepted any salary provided to them. Unfortunately, academia (especially for the liberal arts) is a seller market. We rescinded an offer on a guy that kept trying to negotiate. We went back & forth once, when he came back for another round, the offer got pulled.
It definitely isn't necessarily a sexist move.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 5, 2015 17:34:35 GMT -5
If a man sleeps with a bunch of women, he's patted on the back. If a woman sleeps with a bunch of men, she's looked at as a whore or someone with self-esteem issues. Sounds like a personal problem to me. But IRL, this is because a man has to convince a bunch of women to sleep with him. This is no easy task for most men. All most women have to do is spread their legs and hold up a sign that says "get it here" and they'll have a line leading out the door and down the block. There's no challenge involved. The real challenge to women is being selective by not sleeping with every d-bag who comes along.So, if I sleep with a lot of quality men instead of d-bags, I won't be labeled a whore?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 5, 2015 18:53:22 GMT -5
... Some of which are created by women themselves ... ... And you don't think that this is attributable to being raised in the system? ... Just an excuse for the behavior.
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quince
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Post by quince on Feb 5, 2015 19:10:40 GMT -5
And you don't think that this is attributable to being raised in the system? ... Just an excuse for the behavior. I'm going to go with this, because men are also raised "in the system". If there's bad behavior due to socialization, it's bad whether or not a man does it or a woman does it, and one gender does not get a pass because they are socialized that way and the other gets to bear the blame.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Feb 5, 2015 19:24:12 GMT -5
Some of it has always been on women being seen as the caregivers and work as only pocket money for them. My first job as an assistant bookkeeper I was making less than half what my husband was making but we decided to be equal in taking time off for things like car repairs. Most women would take off for all the minor things like taking a kid to the doctor or staying home when the kids had a day without school because they were paid less. Same reason to take off to care for elderly or handicapped family as well a newborns and children. I often saw men making a living wage with a wife who made half or less of what he made almost all non commissioned retail sales was women. Women also tended to take family friendly jobs like working in daycare or babysitting. Now women are getting educated at a higher rate than men but I think some are still looking for jobs for reasons other than money like because they love animals or fashion or to help mankind. Men traditionally looked at having to support an entire family so looked for a career with a living wage even it if was hot or dirty or dangerous.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 5, 2015 20:15:38 GMT -5
I think MJ made a good point (maybe it was in another thread) that sometimes perceived inequalities are more related to socioeconomic status than race/gender.
And as I'm sure you know, being a white male is not an automatic ticket to riches and the upper echelons of society, you still have to have connections and ability (usually).
Not saying inequalities don't exist, they certainly do, but I think the reality is far more nuanced most of the time.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 5, 2015 20:19:33 GMT -5
Regarding equal pay for equal work, how would you propose that actually be achieved?
If you legislate it, that means some group would have to go around auditing businesses and fining those who didn't comply. Would you support a government agency to do that?
The only alternatives I can see is to mandate that all employers publicly publish employee salary data, or develop a pay system like the government that treats everyone the same.
I'm sure employers would not relish the thought of either of those two things. From what I understand, most of the time pay and benefits are confidential in most private businesses and it's a serious offense if you discuss it with your co workers. I guess it's common for a company to pay some of it's employees less, and they don't want the word getting out.
And I'm sure businesses want to reserve the right to pay their top performers better, so I don't know...
Equal pay for equal work is nice, but I don't see how we could get from point A to point B.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2015 21:00:21 GMT -5
I think children are a major obstacle. A guy never gets labeled for not getting custody, but a woman always does. If a guy decides to walk away, he can walk. A woman will get the kids by default. That is why women's standard of living declines with divorce whereas a guy's usually improves.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Feb 5, 2015 23:03:56 GMT -5
have we any updates from Apple on her situation? No good news/updates. Something may, or may not, have happened this afternoon, but I haven't heard any rumors yet. I have another meeting coming up and will hopefully get some kind of an answer soon.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 6, 2015 7:42:43 GMT -5
I'm sorry Apple I didn't mean to bring up something you'd rather not have brought up.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Feb 6, 2015 8:01:59 GMT -5
I'm sorry Apple I didn't mean to bring up something you'd rather not have brought up. It's ok it's actually a little nice to have someone thinking of me, I've been almost completely isolated through this. I just can't really post about it right now, until I know what the next step is, and I'm hearing and seeing two conflicting outcomes. I did get to talk to someone who went through almost the exact same thing with the same employer, and it took six years for it to get settled. Six. Years. I'm not looking forward to the future right now, if things don't happen, it's going to be a rough road.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 6, 2015 8:05:40 GMT -5
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 6, 2015 10:43:26 GMT -5
I've been repeatedly interrupted and talked over in meetings by men - most recently, my fucking intern. When I say "Hey, back to my point" people act like I've started screaming and throwing things.
Also, Phoenix, can we talk about how your thread title is set up: The barriers are facing the women, rather than the women facing the barriers (and thus being the actors vs. the objects acted upon.)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Feb 6, 2015 11:15:41 GMT -5
All you have to do is look at YM threads to see the barriers women still face. How many posters have openly admitted if they could legally get away with it they would not hire any women of child bearing age because we all know those women are just waiting to take advantage of the company then turn around and quit to stay home with the children?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 6, 2015 11:21:06 GMT -5
I wish I could find the help wanted ad that I've seen recurrently on CraigsList. They wanted a male, between 20-something to 30-something. Totally illegal, probably scam-ish, but it's CL after all...
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 6, 2015 11:28:34 GMT -5
As most people have pointed out.... there's a ton of scientific evidence that people (both men AND women):
- would rather hire a man -would rather work for a man - are more positive about resumes, CVs, etc when the person has a MALE name - pay men more for the same position - allow negotiation for men and not for women -believe when a man speaks out he's being assertive; when a woman speaks out she's being a bitch. on on on.
Seriously, to infinity and beyond. If a woman stays home from work because her child is sick, she's a slacker. If a man does it, he's "taking one for the team" or some shit. It's nauseating.
I have had people come to my office and ask for Dr. HoneyBBQ because they take one look at me and assume that I'm not a doctor.
As you know, Phoenix, I work in a very male dominated field and almost WITHOUT fail: if someone doesn't know who I am, I'm not the __________, I'm the nurse or the therapist or the secretary or whatever because women can't be _____________.
That's why there's a joke about the doctor who can't operate on the son. Because it's true.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Feb 6, 2015 11:37:22 GMT -5
I think a lot of this is based on your experiences. If you've experienced positive driven women, you'll have positive feelings about them in the work force. If you've experienced lazy men, you're not going to have positive feelings toward them, anywhere.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Feb 6, 2015 11:40:58 GMT -5
All you have to do is look at YM threads to see the barriers women still face. How many posters have openly admitted if they could legally get away with it they would not hire any women of child bearing age because we all know those women are just waiting to take advantage of the company then turn around and quit to stay home with the children? I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that admitted that. inwent through 4 months of hell covering for my business manager. If I had to do it all over again, I would have hired the male that I chose her over It is very easy to complain about me, but I was the one working 65-75 hours a week (sometimes more) toget the work done. That was time away from my family and time I lost with my kids that I can't get back
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