Wood burning as heat controversy.

[973beachbum]

Two Marmora neighbors have found their way into the courthouse over one woman’s use of a wood-burning stove to heat her home.

Shari Troiano, 45, has used a wood-burning stove to heat her home for the past six winters, after her electric bill for baseboard heat reached about $450 per month. But a Cape May County judge has ordered a preliminary injunction against her using the stove during certain hours after her neighbor, John Huber, filed a lawsuit.

www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/wood-burning-stove-to-heat-home-is-at-center-of/article_510176ac-983e-11e4-9c5a-43e6df7d1e3c.html



I actually didn't realize this was that big a controversy.  In all honesty we have a fireplace insert.  DH would have it going 24 hours a day but I don't like the way the inside of the house smells when it is going.  So mostly it is kept shut.  I also don't really like how unevenly it heats the house.  I really prefer the whole house to be 70 degrees where the wood stove heats the one room to 90 and the rest of the house only gets to 60 if you are lucky.

But all that said it would never in a million years occur to me to sue my neighbor over them using their fireplace to heat their house.  So what is the opinion here.  Is it someone's right to heat their house any legal way they want or is this a case of the rights of the neighbors to not have any risks from second hand campfires?

That is the best piece I could find although it isn't the newest one.  the comments under the articles, and there have been bunches in all the local papers, have been about the most heated I have ever seen.

[Sam_2.0]

So she has a properly rated insert and she's using it on her own property - I can't see that he should be able to stop her from doing that. Guy sounds like a jerk. I would move just to get away from him.

[steph08]

I've heard of things like this before, especially when DH and I were thinking about building a house down the street from my parents. Apparently there are laws/regulations about how far you have to be from another house if you use a woodburner in a town in regards to the smoke? I don't know - DH knows more about.  It doesn't make sense because it is highly dependent on the wind that day.

We used a woodburner at our old house and use one at our new one as well. But we don't have neighbors within 100 yards of us.

I like using the woodburner - ours is in the basement so the heat rises throughout the whole house. The basement does get super warm though, but we aren't down there too much so it isn't an issue, plus it is a wide open basement, so the heat is evenly spread out.

[973beachbum]

My read on it is I don't think she can.  If she could afford that I would think upgrading to an oil furnace wouldn't be so far out of reach.

That area is kind of older and expensive all at the same time.  It isn't unusual for a brand new half a million dollar house to be next door to an old 800 sq foot hunting cabin.  People in the county use wood for heat quite commonly. My biggest thing is the judge saying you can't use the wood stove from this hour to that.  Is it not okay to use that stove or not?  If it is a hazard then why is it okay at all?  If it is a brand new EPA certified one then shouldn't that mean it is fine?

And yes annoying neighbors are the worst.  I think I need to send thank you cards to mine.  

[Wisconsin Beth]

Feb 3, 2015 10:00:34 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

My read on it is I don't think she can.  If she could afford that I would think upgrading to an oil furnace wouldn't be so far out of reach.

That area is kind of older and expensive all at the same time.  It isn't unusual for a brand new half a million dollar house to be next door to an old 800 sq foot hunting cabin.  People in the county use wood for heat quite commonly. My biggest thing is the judge saying you can't use the wood stove from this hour to that.  Is it not okay to use that stove or not?  If it is a hazard then why is it okay at all?  If it is a brand new EPA certified one then shouldn't that mean it is fine?

And yes annoying neighbors are the worst.  I think I need to send thank you cards to mine.  

Ditto - mine took care of the sidewalk with their heavy duty snowblowers Sun. afternoon and evening.     I ran out and got gas for ours on Monday morning.  I checked the next door neighbor's walk but forgot to look at the other one a couple doors down. 

I pretty much suck at using the snowblower though.  I told DH when this one dies, I am picking out the replacement.  If I'm going to be doing most of that work, I want one that I like.  He didn't argue.  At all. 

[tskeeter]

Feb 3, 2015 9:37:58 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Two Marmora neighbors have found their way into the courthouse over one woman’s use of a wood-burning stove to heat her home.

Shari Troiano, 45, has used a wood-burning stove to heat her home for the past six winters, after her electric bill for baseboard heat reached about $450 per month. But a Cape May County judge has ordered a preliminary injunction against her using the stove during certain hours after her neighbor, John Huber, filed a lawsuit.

www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/breaking/wood-burning-stove-to-heat-home-is-at-center-of/article_510176ac-983e-11e4-9c5a-43e6df7d1e3c.html



I actually didn't realize this was that big a controversy.  In all honesty we have a fireplace insert.  DH would have it going 24 hours a day but I don't like the way the inside of the house smells when it is going.  So mostly it is kept shut.  I also don't really like how unevenly it heats the house.  I really prefer the whole house to be 70 degrees where the wood stove heats the one room to 90 and the rest of the house only gets to 60 if you are lucky.

But all that said it would never in a million years occur to me to sue my neighbor over them using their fireplace to heat their house.  So what is the opinion here.  Is it someone's right to heat their house any legal way they want or is this a case of the rights of the neighbors to not have any risks from second hand campfires?

That is the best piece I could find although it isn't the newest one.  the comments under the articles, and there have been bunches in all the local papers, have been about the most heated I have ever seen.

Burning wood is a highly poluting activity.  It spews all kinds of particulates into the air in the form of smoke and soot.  To the point where many mountain communities regulate or prohibit burning wood because it creates so much smog that the air quality is seriously unhealthy.  (We couldn't put a wood burning fireplace in our house due to air quality managment regulations.)

While I wouldn't think that Atlantic City should suffer from the temperature inversions that are common to mountain communities, being the down wind neighbor of someone who burns wood to heat a house could be an issue for people with certain respiratory conditions.  Especially if the wood burner isn't equiped with particulate reducing features that have been available for decades.  

[skubikky]

I'm so grateful that we live in the country.
Most of the houses on our road heat with wood.

[Abby Normal]

I think the guy is an ass.  It's more dangerous for her, than it is him. Unless he has asthma or COPD- in which case he should have discussed with her rather than filed a suit.  Yes, there is an element of outdoor air pollution. But unless he's sitting on her chimney inhaling, the risk should be minimal to him.  It would be different if he could prove she was burning treated lumber, or even burning home garbage in her fire- which would add an element of toxins in.

[teen persuasion]

Feb 3, 2015 10:00:34 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

My read on it is I don't think she can.  If she could afford that I would think upgrading to an oil furnace wouldn't be so far out of reach.

That area is kind of older and expensive all at the same time.  It isn't unusual for a brand new half a million dollar house to be next door to an old 800 sq foot hunting cabin.  People in the county use wood for heat quite commonly. My biggest thing is the judge saying you can't use the wood stove from this hour to that.  Is it not okay to use that stove or not?  If it is a hazard then why is it okay at all?  If it is a brand new EPA certified one then shouldn't that mean it is fine?

And yes annoying neighbors are the worst.  I think I need to send thank you cards to mine.  

Oil is horrendously expensive to heat with, compared to gas.  We replaced our furnace 15 years ago when oil was .69 / gal.  At the time that was cheaper than propane (no NG on our street), but now it is crazy.  I prebuy to reduce costs, and we keep temps low, and run our wood burning stove when we are home, and we still spend nearly $3k for oil.

[973beachbum]

I don't know about temperature inversions but it is 7 degrees out right now.  And I don't want to know what the wind chill is!

While I personally prefer regular forced hot air heat I do understand what it is like not to have 15K sitting around to put in a heating system.  She isn't the only person around here living in a home with only a fireplace and electric baseboard as their choices for heat. 

the third option being let yourself become a popsicle.

[973beachbum]

Feb 3, 2015 13:27:21 GMT -5 teen persuasion said:

Feb 3, 2015 10:00:34 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

My read on it is I don't think she can.  If she could afford that I would think upgrading to an oil furnace wouldn't be so far out of reach.

That area is kind of older and expensive all at the same time.  It isn't unusual for a brand new half a million dollar house to be next door to an old 800 sq foot hunting cabin.  People in the county use wood for heat quite commonly. My biggest thing is the judge saying you can't use the wood stove from this hour to that.  Is it not okay to use that stove or not?  If it is a hazard then why is it okay at all?  If it is a brand new EPA certified one then shouldn't that mean it is fine?

And yes annoying neighbors are the worst.  I think I need to send thank you cards to mine.  

Oil is horrendously expensive to heat with, compared to gas.  We replaced our furnace 15 years ago when oil was .69 / gal.  At the time that was cheaper than propane (no NG on our street), but now it is crazy.  I prebuy to reduce costs, and we keep temps low, and run our wood burning stove when we are home, and we still spend nearly $3k for oil.

We use oil to heat and end up paying about $1000 a year for fuel.  But that wasn't what I was thinking about being expensive.  She doesn't have natural gas run to her house.  Running natural gas from the road to the house is $6K and that doesn't include the actual furnace or the duct work. 

the article said she got estimates for $17K to put it in.  At least with oil heat you don't have to run it from the street and pay the gas company whatever they want to do it.

[tskeeter]

Feb 3, 2015 13:44:19 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I don't know about temperature inversions but it is 7 degrees out right now.  And I don't want to know what the wind chill is!

While I personally prefer regular forced hot air heat I do understand what it is like not to have 15K sitting around to put in a heating system.  She isn't the only person around here living in a home with only a fireplace and electric baseboard as their choices for heat. 

the third option being let yourself become a popsicle.

In many areas there are assistance programs to help folks who can't afford to heat their homes.  And programs to upgrade insulation.  And programs to upgrade windows.  I wonder if the wood burner was aware of and explored any of those options?

Now, I think that the guy doing the suing is being a major league jerk in the way he is approaching the situation.  But I didn't see anything in the article that says the wood buning homeowner can't afford to run the electric baseboard.  Only that the bills were about $450 a month.  This implies that burning wood for heat is a cost savings move that the wood burner chose to make, rather than the only way the woman can afford to heat the house.  I see that the wood burner also played the single Mom sympathy card.  Makes me wonder even more of the wood heat is an economic necessity vs. an economic convenience.      

[Opti]

Feb 3, 2015 14:02:06 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Feb 3, 2015 13:44:19 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I don't know about temperature inversions but it is 7 degrees out right now.  And I don't want to know what the wind chill is!

While I personally prefer regular forced hot air heat I do understand what it is like not to have 15K sitting around to put in a heating system.  She isn't the only person around here living in a home with only a fireplace and electric baseboard as their choices for heat. 

the third option being let yourself become a popsicle.

In many areas there are assistance programs to help folks who can't afford to heat their homes.  And programs to upgrade insulation.  And programs to upgrade windows.  I wonder if the wood burner was aware of and explored any of those options?

Heating assistance programs only work if she is paying a utility company, which she

isn't and usually is just part of the bill. If her bills were that bad it would only lessen the

bleeding a little.

Not sure if there any active programs to upgrade insulation or windows for her. In any event,

she'd need to be able to pay out the money and wait for some to come back to her for months

to a year.

[973beachbum]

Feb 3, 2015 14:02:06 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

Feb 3, 2015 13:44:19 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I don't know about temperature inversions but it is 7 degrees out right now.  And I don't want to know what the wind chill is!

While I personally prefer regular forced hot air heat I do understand what it is like not to have 15K sitting around to put in a heating system.  She isn't the only person around here living in a home with only a fireplace and electric baseboard as their choices for heat. 

the third option being let yourself become a popsicle.

In many areas there are assistance programs to help folks who can't afford to heat their homes.  And programs to upgrade insulation.  And programs to upgrade windows.  I wonder if the wood burner was aware of and explored any of those options?

Well we have most of those programs too, but they are for the poor.  She seems to have a job and makes enough to pay her bills so I highly doubt she would qualify.  Most of those programs you have to be basically destitute to qualify. 

This is interesting for one other reason though.  Normally YM would applaud the person who doesn't ask for help but gets out there and spends every free minute working hard to take care of themself and their family.   Yet here you are saying she should have asked the welfare office if they could heat her home and fix it up to make it more effecient.

[Opti]

Feb 3, 2015 13:44:19 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

I don't know about temperature inversions but it is 7 degrees out right now.  And I don't want to know what the wind chill is!

While I personally prefer regular forced hot air heat I do understand what it is like not to have 15K sitting around to put in a heating system.  She isn't the only person around here living in a home with only a fireplace and electric baseboard as their choices for heat. 

the third option being let yourself become a popsicle.

Not sure what a good solution is as I have never had a neighbor to my knowledge

use only wood-burning heat so I have no idea what the impact might be as a neighbor.

Maybe she can use baseboard heat during those hours and see if LHEAP might cover

some of the additional cost. I hope things work out for her.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Feb 3, 2015 14:09:48 GMT -5 Opti said:

Feb 3, 2015 14:02:06 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

In many areas there are assistance programs to help folks who can't afford to heat their homes.  And programs to upgrade insulation.  And programs to upgrade windows.  I wonder if the wood burner was aware of and explored any of those options?

Heating assistance programs only work if she is paying a utility company, which she

isn't and usually is just part of the bill. If her bills were that bad it would only lessen the

bleeding a little.

Not sure if there any active programs to upgrade insulation or windows for her. In any event,

she'd need to be able to pay out the money and wait for some to come back to her for months

to a year.

The Focus on Energy program here is sort of tied to a loan program run by my City to help people upgrade insulation, etc.  They've vetted the companies that do the work so at least you know it's not a scam.  My parents went though an earlier incarnation of it and have good things to say about it. 

[Abby Normal]

If you can buy an EPA certified wood stove for a few hundred dollars- I'm not sure why you would look into the other options.  What she's doing is still perfectly legal.  The hours restriction is only to please the neighbor, not because she has done anything wrong.  If she had, it would be a total ban.

[mroped]

Wood burning can be quite efficient and clean if done properly.

Yes, I know that there are communities where the houses are so close together that you can smell the smoke but there are also people that use wood for heating and have no clue on how to do it and people that no matter how clean and good you are burning your stove/fireplace, they still complain because that is what they do.

The stoves that are on the market today(new ones) are rated for all sorts of efficiencies so the burning if done properly is as clean as it can be and they are very efficient too. There are also some of the older models that through a proper burning technique can achieve just about the same thing.

Chimneys have a very important role in how all this "cleaner burn" can be achieved. An improperly sized chimney or a chimney that is not high enough or terminated in a safe way can be cause for many problems.
A clean stove/fireplace and chimney burn in a different way than a dirty one. The type of wood that is used has influence on how much smoke goes out.

If your apliance doesn't burn properly that means you are producing more smoke which means you are basically using more wood by being ineficient. Smoke is after all a wood burning byproduct therefore "unburned wood"

A judge can restrict your burning time based on township/Comunity ordinances so maybe said township has one. Or maybe somebody needs to teach this woman how to properly burn her stove as not to affect the air quality for her neighbors.

That can be tricky though! I've been trying to teach one of my customers how to burn his stove for six years now still with no results.
He has been doing it for most of his life(he's over 70) but his chimney is the only one that needs cleaned twice in a heating season from 15th of October to 15th of April.

[tskeeter]

Feb 3, 2015 14:09:48 GMT -5 Opti said:

Feb 3, 2015 14:02:06 GMT -5 tskeeter said:

In many areas there are assistance programs to help folks who can't afford to heat their homes.  And programs to upgrade insulation.  And programs to upgrade windows.  I wonder if the wood burner was aware of and explored any of those options?

Heating assistance programs only work if she is paying a utility company, which she

isn't and usually is just part of the bill. If her bills were that bad it would only lessen the

bleeding a little.

Not sure if there any active programs to upgrade insulation or windows for her. In any event,

she'd need to be able to pay out the money and wait for some to come back to her for months

to a year.

Not all upgrade programs are reimbursement type programs.  One of my cousins participated in a program that replaced all of the windows in her house in Minneapolis.  She signed up.  The program measured, purchased the windows, removed the old windows and installed the new windows, and cleaned up after the construction activities.  As far as I know, my cousin didn't have to lay out any cash.

As I understand it, the windows program was a dual purpose program.  Upgrade the housing stock that low income residents were living in.  (Cousin was a single mother who had taken a year long leave from her teaching job after the birth of her child.)  And a job training program that was teaching construction skillls to low income young adults. 

[skubikky]

what is he burning?  Pressure treated wood?  Plastic? 

[weltschmerz]

We've banned the installations of wood-burning stoves and fireplaces. It's too polluting. It adds more to particulates in the air than commerce, industry and transportation combined.

ville.montreal.qc.ca/portal/page?_pageid=7657,82589582&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

[mroped]

In a city like Montreal I see that happening due to density.
If improperly burned and not maintained wood burning apliances can become a hazard or rather the chimneys can be the hazard. People tend to skip on things like chimney cleaning, adequate lining, caps, spark arresters or power drafting where necessary and that can lead to chimney fires. In a high density housing area that can be dangerous.

[quince]

I wouldn't love living next to someone doing a lot of wood burning. Second hand cigarette smoke is a big deal: I think the smoke from wood fires isn't exactly healthful either.

[mroped]

Feb 3, 2015 15:36:32 GMT -5 quince said:

I wouldn't love living next to someone doing a lot of wood burning. Second hand cigarette smoke is a big deal: I think the smoke from wood fires isn't exactly healthful either.

It is a matter of choice!
I wouldn't wanna live in a place that prohibits wood burning! At least once in a while I wanna see the logs crackling and sparking.

It looks to me that in this case the neighbor just decided to be a pain in the rear. No heads up, no talk, nothing but a legal notice that you should should show up in court? That is just rude if you ask me!

[hoops902]

Feb 3, 2015 15:47:05 GMT -5 mroped said:

Feb 3, 2015 15:36:32 GMT -5 quince said:

I wouldn't love living next to someone doing a lot of wood burning. Second hand cigarette smoke is a big deal: I think the smoke from wood fires isn't exactly healthful either.

It is a matter of choice!
I wouldn't wanna live in a place that prohibits wood burning! At least once in a while I wanna see the logs crackling and sparking.

It looks to me that in this case the neighbor just decided to be a pain in the rear. No heads up, no talk, nothing but a legal notice that you should should show up in court? That is just rude if you ask me!

He sent her a letter detailing his issues with her practice.  It doesn't say the first thing she got was a legal notice. 

[mroped]

I guess I missed that when I read the article! Oops!

But wouldn't have been nicer just to walk over and talk to her about it? What if he is a lawyer he has to do that in writing so he has proof of it or what?

If I were the guy with the stove I'd stick with the schedule set by the judge but everytime the wind is blowing the neighbors direction I'd load that sucker up and turn the air flow down as to make it as smoky as I could. Just to be a pain! Don't like it? Good! That was the intention! Next time when you have a problem with the way I do things in my yard, come and talk to me, not send me letters! Ars-hole!

[hoops902]

I dunno, I might send a letter if I thought I was going to get some sob story about why they couldn't accomodate.  Given the whoa-is-me sob story she put into the article, I can see that being a distinct possibility.

[mroped]

So you are saying that it is preferable to send a letter than have direct contact just for the sake of listening to a sob story for 5 minutes? 
What if during those 5 minutes they could've come to a compromise?

" Look neighbor, I have this problem with my lungs. Can you do anything about your stove as not to make my life miserable?"

It is amazing what direct contact can achieve when a problem arises!
If my neighbor would come complaining, I'd work with him just because I believe in respecting other people needs too. Maybe looking for better wood, or a different stove but how is a schedule on burning gonna affect where the smoke goes?

[cronewitch]

Seattle has days when you can't use wood heat unless it is your only source of adequate heat. When their is no wind at all the smoke stays near the ground. This can cause serious health issues for people with asthma. We would be fined if we did it and it is usually on really cold days and last for a week. I like to heat with wood when it is really cold, saves gas but now painted the living room sand colored and not messing with wood anymore indoors.

[muttleynfelix]

When I run after work, I can tell which houses have wood burning fireplaces going.  I can't tell who is smoking outside their house .  I'm not completely it, but it is very obvious andi run in neighborhoods that are less than 40 years old.