kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Feb 4, 2015 14:38:41 GMT -5
THANK YOU for saying this! This is probably hands-down the most sensible thing I've read on any of the vaccine threads.
Contrary to what a few people are trying to make me out as, I'm not an anti-vaxxer either. But I absolutely agree that we have every right to question what we are told. Questioning authority or status quo is a cornerstone of freedom. When we lose the right to question, or to have control over our own bodies and over the health and wellbeing of our families (the talk of forced vaccinations, jail time for non-compliers, CPS taking kids who don't want treatment away from their families, etc) we are perilously close to a police state. Hitler springs to mind. So does Mussolini and assorted other Asian dictators (Mao, Pol Pot).
CLEARLY WE ARE NOT THERE - YET. But to guard the freedom we all regard as precious requires that we constantly question.
That is all. At least it is for freedom-loving people.
And some of us don't understand why freedom loving people would put the lives of others, in their own community, at risk by not vaccinating. If you love your freedom that much, then why are you putting your society that supports that right at risk? That's what I'm questioning. Diseases can and have wiped out societies - estimates are that between 50%-90% of the Native American population died after contact with Europeans (1450-1750ish) because they had no little to no resistance to measles, scarlet fever, typhoid, influenza, whooping cough, TB, cholera, diphtheria and chickenpox and whatever else came over. Understood. I don't vaccinate myself because I'm medically contraindicated for it (by the very same community that pushes vaccines so hard, by the way). I think I'm just tired of being the brunt of people's anger - especially when I don't feel like it's my fault. I was at a Super Bowl party and some guy there was going on and on - loudly - about how the people who don't get a flu shot are all "idiots" who are "putting the rest of us at risk." Being who I am, I didn't bother to keep my mouth shut and seethe. So he got a quiet, non-confrontational earful from me. He shut up.
Some of us CAN'T vaccinate. Yet we are thrown into the mix of folks who are demonized. I'm tired of it. Maybe I'm just on the wrong thread. Or I'm not communicating well because I don't feel understood at all.
And I STILL agree with Sroo - I don't think the medical community is evil or wrong - but I absolutely DO believe they are not above questioning. No one is (or should be) above questioning.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 4, 2015 14:45:01 GMT -5
DH has a rare autoimmune disorder. Four generations ago they didn't have a name for it so no one would have been diagnosed with it. You just would have died young and mysteriously, like a ton of other people. Until the 70's and the advent of prednisone and cancer drugs people with his disease died 5 months to a 1 year after diagnosis. One of the leading causes of death for his disease is heart attack or stroke because it weakens blood vessels. If someone had died of a heart attack forty years ago at the age of 25 they would have thought it was stress, not jumped to the idea that it was caused by underlying auto-immune disorder. That's part of it, but rates have been rising long since they were properly able to diagnose these conditions. The same is true for autism, ADHD, severe allergies, and mental illness. Improved diagnosis only accounts for a fraction of the observable increase. Also, the fact that your husband would have died before giving birth to your children is consistent with the theory that technological intervention has subverted the process of natural selection. So how can you attribute this evolutionary selection to vaccines? You can just as well replace what you wrote with antibiotics, blood pressure meds, non steriodal anti inflammatories or any of the other advances that medicine has made in the last 200+ years. I can make a biologically plausible explanation for every single one of those too, but no one would give those a second thought either. Finally, your comment that improved diagnosis is not wholly correct. It is not the improved diagnosis but the definition of the diagnosis. For instance, ADHD was not defined until relatively recently. Neither was autism. Doctors knew something was wrong, but there was no label to put on it as no one had developed any sort of criteria for diagnosis. Once the disease was defined, then a diagnosis could be made. Many of the other items on your list have a genetic component to them (like allergies and metal disease).
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Feb 4, 2015 14:49:26 GMT -5
Understood. I don't vaccinate myself because I'm medically contraindicated for it (by the very same community that pushes vaccines so hard, by the way). I think I'm just tired of being the brunt of people's anger - especially when I don't feel like it's my fault. I was at a Super Bowl party and some guy there was going on and on - loudly - about how the people who don't get a flu shot are all "idiots" who are "putting the rest of us at risk." Being who I am, I didn't bother to keep my mouth shut and seethe. So he got a quiet, non-confrontational earful from me. He shut up.
Medical exemptions are one thing and it is an exception that is not questioned. And you should thank the rest of the herd for the fact that by most of the population being immunized, it is protecting YOU because you cannot be immunized. It does go both ways. You are protected more than you would otherwise be, because of it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 14:52:00 GMT -5
Hasidic communities are prone to many diseases, like TB. They only intermingle with each other, passing diseases back and forth.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Feb 4, 2015 14:54:15 GMT -5
Understood. I don't vaccinate myself because I'm medically contraindicated for it (by the very same community that pushes vaccines so hard, by the way). I think I'm just tired of being the brunt of people's anger - especially when I don't feel like it's my fault. I was at a Super Bowl party and some guy there was going on and on - loudly - about how the people who don't get a flu shot are all "idiots" who are "putting the rest of us at risk." Being who I am, I didn't bother to keep my mouth shut and seethe. So he got a quiet, non-confrontational earful from me. He shut up.Medical exemptions are one thing and it is an exception that is not questioned. And you should thank the rest of the herd for the fact that by most of the population being immunized, it is protecting YOU because you cannot be immunized. It does go both ways. You are protected more than you would otherwise be, because of it. Thank you for saying this, Mich - I appreciate it. But unfortunately, it is not my experience. Just like the Super Bowl guy, I routinely (but not constantly) run into "rabid pro-vaxxers" who don't seem to understand medical exemption and go "off" on how people like me are "idiots." Or maybe I just need to ignore the vaxx conversations that go on on FB, other social media, the press, thread like this . . . (sad chuckle).
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Feb 4, 2015 14:56:21 GMT -5
Understood. I don't vaccinate myself because I'm medically contraindicated for it (by the very same community that pushes vaccines so hard, by the way). I think I'm just tired of being the brunt of people's anger - especially when I don't feel like it's my fault. I was at a Super Bowl party and some guy there was going on and on - loudly - about how the people who don't get a flu shot are all "idiots" who are "putting the rest of us at risk." Being who I am, I didn't bother to keep my mouth shut and seethe. So he got a quiet, non-confrontational earful from me. He shut up.Medical exemptions are one thing and it is an exception that is not questioned. And you should thank the rest of the herd for the fact that by most of the population being immunized, it is protecting YOU because you cannot be immunized. It does go both ways. You are protected more than you would otherwise be, because of it. Thank you for saying this, Mich - I appreciate it. But unfortunately, it is not my experience. Just like the Super Bowl guy, I routinely (but not constantly) run into "rabid pro-vaxxers" who don't seem to understand medical exemption and go "off" on how people like me are "idiots." Or maybe I just need to ignore the vaxx conversations that go on on FB, other social media, the press, thread like this . . . (sad chuckle). Maybe you could have your doctor write you a note that you can't have vaccines. Then you can show "super bowl guy"-types when in that situation.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 4, 2015 14:58:40 GMT -5
Understood. I don't vaccinate myself because I'm medically contraindicated for it (by the very same community that pushes vaccines so hard, by the way). I think I'm just tired of being the brunt of people's anger - especially when I don't feel like it's my fault. I was at a Super Bowl party and some guy there was going on and on - loudly - about how the people who don't get a flu shot are all "idiots" who are "putting the rest of us at risk." Being who I am, I didn't bother to keep my mouth shut and seethe. So he got a quiet, non-confrontational earful from me. He shut up.Medical exemptions are one thing and it is an exception that is not questioned. And you should thank the rest of the herd for the fact that by most of the population being immunized, it is protecting YOU because you cannot be immunized. It does go both ways. You are protected more than you would otherwise be, because of it. Thank you for saying this, Mich - I appreciate it. But unfortunately, it is not my experience. Just like the Super Bowl guy, I routinely (but not constantly) run into "rabid pro-vaxxers" who don't seem to understand medical exemption and go "off" on how people like me are "idiots." Or maybe I just need to ignore the vaxx conversations that go on on FB, other social media, the press, thread like this . . . (sad chuckle). Nobody here is that rabid pro vaxx. In fact, I believe everyone has made an exception for medical issues.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 4, 2015 14:58:50 GMT -5
I'll state this first and get it out of the way. I AM NOT ANTI VACCINE. That being said, I wonder why it seems to be a crazy idea suddenly to question the medical consensus and make personal decisions? There have been many many cases of the medical community getting things really wrong, just as there are for getting them right? Did you know that the polio vaccine was live trialed in 1.8 million US children? It turned out to be a good thing (no denying), but it could have just easily turned out horribly wrong. Thalidomide for morning sickness? In retrospect if a woman questioned or refused to take this at her doctors suggestion, would she be considered a nut? The medical community used to perform lobotomies as a routine procedure. Now looking back, it is seen as one of the most barbaric practices in medical history. But at the time it was seen as the best treatment for many ailments. Did you know the inventor of it was given a Nobel prize? Who would argue against that? Think about this, if popular belief at the time was a lobotomy would fix your (global you) ailment. Why would you question it? Would you be a nut for challenging that this is an appropriate treatment? Think about the doctors that did challenge it. If they hadn't we'd still be subjecting countless people to it. I'm not saying that medical community is bad or shouldn't be trusted. But they should be questioned. We also should maintain the rights to make our own decisions.
THANK YOU for saying this! This is probably hands-down the most sensible thing I've read on any of the vaccine threads.
Contrary to what a few people are trying to make me out as, I'm not an anti-vaxxer either. But I absolutely agree that we have every right to question what we are told. Questioning authority or status quo is a cornerstone of freedom. When we lose the right to question, or to have control over our own bodies and over the health and wellbeing of our families (the talk of forced vaccinations, jail time for non-compliers, CPS taking kids who don't want treatment away from their families, etc) we are perilously close to a police state. Hitler springs to mind. So does Mussolini and assorted other Asian dictators (Mao, Pol Pot).
CLEARLY WE ARE NOT THERE - YET. But to guard the freedom we all regard as precious requires that we constantly question.
That is all. At least it is for freedom-loving people.
ETA: see, AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP? We actually agree (sometimes) more than you think
There is a vaccine that will fix that.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 15:06:06 GMT -5
Of course you do. But what if your decision kills someone else in your community?
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:07:10 GMT -5
Hasidic communities are prone to many diseases, like TB. They only intermingle with each other, passing diseases back and forth.
That may be true but EVERYONE has reasons for not vaccinating. Doesn't matter if they're conservative. Or liberal. Or middle of the road. They have their reasons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 15:08:45 GMT -5
To play devils advocate, yes people have said they make an exception for medical reasons. There have also been posts questioning whether her medical reason was 'real' ...
It won't be as easy as that. We've seen that there are people in the med community which don't believe in vac. They will write noted is my guess. Then we'll have people questioning. I think it would get muddy fast.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 15:09:39 GMT -5
Thank you for saying this, Mich - I appreciate it. But unfortunately, it is not my experience. Just like the Super Bowl guy, I routinely (but not constantly) run into "rabid pro-vaxxers" who don't seem to understand medical exemption and go "off" on how people like me are "idiots." Or maybe I just need to ignore the vaxx conversations that go on on FB, other social media, the press, thread like this . . . (sad chuckle). Nobody here is that rabid pro vaxx. In fact, I believe everyone has made an exception for medical issues.
I have no problem with medical exceptions. It's something that people can't help. I do have a problem with people who refuse to vaccinate because they believe every conspiracy theory that comes down the pike. "If vaccines are so safe, why were they injecting African women with chemicals that would cause abortion?"
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 15:10:07 GMT -5
So if someone doesn't vac thru are killing other people?
Will the same logic apply if people don't donate a kidney? Because that can kill people too...
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:11:55 GMT -5
/derail I do have to note... I think this is the most civilized vaccine discussion I have seen in a long time. As they typically devolve into name calling and tired labels in only one or two posts. Go us... for once again setting the bar /end derail Well, the only person I'm mad enough to name call on is Moon. And that's for the timing of the board name change. The server reset or whatever it was caused me to lose a post I'd labored over for this thread. But then again, calling Moon names = a timeout from the board so discretion is the better part of valor and all that.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:13:25 GMT -5
To play devils advocate, yes people have said they make an exception for medical reasons. There have also been posts questioning whether her medical reason was 'real' ... It won't be as easy as that. We've seen that there are people in the med community which don't believe in vac. They will write noted is my guess. Then we'll have people questioning. I think it would get muddy fast. Which basically takes us back to the OP and Wolfson's quotes.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 15:14:31 GMT -5
To play devils advocate, yes people have said they make an exception for medical reasons. There have also been posts questioning whether her medical reason was 'real' ... It won't be as easy as that. We've seen that there are people in the med community which don't believe in vac. They will write noted is my guess. Then we'll have people questioning. I think it would get muddy fast. That was me. She posted a bunch of nonsense that she believed to be true because she read it on the internet. I was also playing devil's advocate. I read that her disease is not real. I saw it on the internet. If it's on the interwebz, it must be true.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 4, 2015 15:17:58 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Feb 4, 2015 15:21:28 GMT -5
To play devils advocate, yes people have said they make an exception for medical reasons. There have also been posts questioning whether her medical reason was 'real' ... It won't be as easy as that. We've seen that there are people in the med community which don't believe in vac. They will write noted is my guess. Then we'll have people questioning. I think it would get muddy fast. To be fair, anyone who thought her medical reason might not be "real" may have taken that opinion from the following, found in Reply #56: Note the smiley used. That indicates to some that the statement preceding it is facetious, or not factual. I'm guessing that's mostly just a misunderstanding.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:23:33 GMT -5
So if someone doesn't vac thru are killing other people? Will the same logic apply if people don't donate a kidney? Because that can kill people too... Potentially, yes. Babies under a year old don't really have an immune system. Breastfed babies get some of their mom's immune system via the breastmilk but not everyone can/does breastfeed. Anyone with an auto immune system issue (or Kittensaver) could potentially die from a disease. As was pointed out in the other vaccination thread, the odds are low but they do exist. Donating a kidney is different. You need tests to give or receive one. Anyone can potentially pass on a disease without knowing it. No one knows if you have measles or chicken pox until the rash pops out. You can pass it on to Drama's baby. Or Kittensaver and not know. And they could die from it (sorry Drama and Kittensaver, you were the easy to think of examples) depending on their own immune systems.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 15:25:47 GMT -5
But if you can be made to undergo a medical intervention in order to save others... Well... Does that end with vaccinations?
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 4, 2015 15:29:01 GMT -5
You're only made to if you want your kids to go to public school. Homeschool and you don't have to, which I think is probably where a vast amount of unvaccinated kids are.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 4, 2015 15:29:13 GMT -5
That's part of it, but rates have been rising long since they were properly able to diagnose these conditions. The same is true for autism, ADHD, severe allergies, and mental illness. Improved diagnosis only accounts for a fraction of the observable increase. Also, the fact that your husband would have died before giving birth to your children is consistent with the theory that technological intervention has subverted the process of natural selection. So how can you attribute this evolutionary selection to vaccines? You can just as well replace what you wrote with antibiotics, blood pressure meds, non steriodal anti inflammatories or any of the other advances that medicine has made in the last 200+ years. I can make a biologically plausible explanation for every single one of those too, but no one would give those a second thought either. Finally, your comment that improved diagnosis is not wholly correct. It is not the improved diagnosis but the definition of the diagnosis. For instance, ADHD was not defined until relatively recently. Neither was autism. Doctors knew something was wrong, but there was no label to put on it as no one had developed any sort of criteria for diagnosis. Once the disease was defined, then a diagnosis could be made. Many of the other items on your list have a genetic component to them (like allergies and metal disease). Call it what you want, variables related to our ability to diagnose and label these conditions only account for a fraction of the observable increase. As for all the other factors you listed, they could well be playing a major role too. Blood pressure medication, anti-inflammatories not so much since they wouldn't have much impact on mortality rates below the age of procreation, but antibiotics and antibacterial products would definitely qualify. The use and abuse of these latter two is strongly linked to the rise of superbugs like MRSA (although this is attributed to adaptation in the bacteria), and theorized to be one of the causes of the rise in severe allergies. I'm not advocating that we stop vaccinating children. Our system is going to implode under socioeconomic and demographic burdens long before our genetic fitness as a species ever becomes a pressing concern. We might as well get while the getting's good. I am, however, pointing out that there may indeed be wisdom in the "right to be sick" doctrines driving some of the anti-vaccine sentiment.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:31:52 GMT -5
But if you can be made to undergo a medical intervention in order to save others... Well... Does that end with vaccinations? Yes because vaccinations are for the good of all of society - from the youngest to the oldest, no matter what race or creed and no matter if you're in jail, a druggie on the street, a nun or just the average everyday person going about their business. In my opinion, the only other medical intervention that MAY come close to the benefits of vaccinations for society as a whole might possibly be blood donations.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 4, 2015 15:33:51 GMT -5
So if someone doesn't vac thru are killing other people? Will the same logic apply if people don't donate a kidney? Because that can kill people too... Kidney disease isn't airborne.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 4, 2015 15:34:23 GMT -5
But if you can be made to undergo a medical intervention in order to save others... Well... Does that end with vaccinations? Yes because vaccinations are for the good of all of society - from the youngest to the oldest, no matter what race or creed and no matter if you're in jail, a druggie on the street, a nun or just the average everyday person going about their business. In my opinion, the only other medical intervention that MAY come close to the benefits of vaccinations for society as a whole might possibly be blood donations. Aren't you pro-choice?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2015 15:37:12 GMT -5
So mandatory blood donations ?
Just trying to point out mandatory medical is an interesting and complex issue to consider.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Feb 4, 2015 15:39:00 GMT -5
I'm not interested in that theory because you would need to include all medical practices & medication, not just vaccines. I'm interested in your claims regarding highly vaccinated communities seeing the same rate of infection as less vaccinated communities. Party because you posted all the herd immunity links earlier & this seems to be part of your anti-vaccination stance. So back it up The links I posted are where I sourced the claim. There's at least 100 pages of material between the three of them. I just skimmed the headings, and studies on instances where vaccinated communities experienced outbreaks seemed to be a common theme. I'm not anti-vaccine, and I don't care enough about the topic to research it intensively. My involvement in these threads is purely academic. If I cared as much about vaccinations as you appear to, I would investigate contrarian sites thoroughly, claim by claim. So you don't have a specific source to back up your claim. Gotcha I don't need to investigate because I've done enough reading on vaccines to know it is BS. Just because there are outbreaks in vaccinated communities does not mean that vaccines aren't effective or herd immunity is bunk. The anti-vaccine folks just set up straw man arguments to make it appear as such. But, it is meaningless because your combining 1000 factors that happened over the past hundred years that have influenced our evolution & trying to blame it all on vaccines. It is absolutely impossible to come to that conclusion because there are too many factors. Correlation vs causation.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Feb 4, 2015 15:39:21 GMT -5
Yes because vaccinations are for the good of all of society - from the youngest to the oldest, no matter what race or creed and no matter if you're in jail, a druggie on the street, a nun or just the average everyday person going about their business. In my opinion, the only other medical intervention that MAY come close to the benefits of vaccinations for society as a whole might possibly be blood donations. Aren't you pro-choice? I defy definition. As do a lot of us quietly moving along the boards (and life)
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 4, 2015 15:39:21 GMT -5
I don't trust anything NaturalNews says. Ever.
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b2r
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Post by b2r on Feb 4, 2015 15:41:36 GMT -5
So mandatory blood donations ? Just trying to point out mandatory medical is an interesting and complex issue to consider. Somebody hold her down...I need a pint!
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